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Guyed tower vs. Self Supporting

Hi folks,

Please help educate this newbie. What kind of tower survives Hurricanes and such better - a guyed tower or a self supporting truss structure type?

What are the advantages and disadvantages of both?

I hope this is not to broad of a question.

One more thing I must comment on. I read the Engineering board, as well as the Seattle Radio Board. Boy howdy, there are some vicious people on that Seattle board! Why are Engineers usually more courteous?
 
> What kind of tower
> survives Hurricanes and such better - a guyed tower or a
> self supporting truss structure type?

A general statement really would be meaningless. It's all in what any
given tower was designed for. A self-supporting tower in an area of
high wind expectations might have an exceptionally wide spacing at the
base; a guyed tower for the same area, properly designed, might have
more than the usual number of guy stations (not anchor points; those
are mostly determined by the cross-section of the tower, typically
triangular). Not so much the absolute number of guys off each leg
as the number relative to height. In extreme cases you might find
two or more guy anchors per vertical set of guys.

You also get into materials; round vs. angle stock; tubular vs. rod
stock; cross-bracing (affects wind-loading) and what you plan to hang
off the tower. For AM, perhaps noting...more likely some communications
stuff...for FM, of course the FM antenna (may be huge; lots of bays).

The tower most likely to stand is one which was designed for the
wildest predictable weather plus a healthy safety margin. But
weather isn't the only consideration. Soil conditions, available
real estate (that which most commonly drives the choice of guyed vs.
self-supporting) and cost. Lots more steel in self-supporting ($$$)
and much more labor to construct but uses (not so much for AM) much
less land.

> One more thing I must comment on. I read the Engineering
> board, as well as the Seattle Radio Board. Boy howdy, there
> are some vicious people on that Seattle board! Why are
> Engineers usually more courteous?

I wouldn't say "more courteous"...the older we get the more cranky
we get. But the topics on this board are not generally of interest
to younger yahoos and are very rarely controversial. The board
tends to stay focused and, because the topics it addresses fall
into a rather narrow band, it's easier to moderate. I can recall
very few instances of deletion and most of those were more related
to individuals "spamming" multiple boards or going wildly off topic.

You think Seattle can get tough? Try Boston!


<P ID="signature">______________
Happiness is like beer....you don't really buy it, you just rent it.</P>
 
> > One more thing I must comment on. I read the Engineering
> > board, as well as the Seattle Radio Board. Boy howdy,
> there
> > are some vicious people on that Seattle board! Why are
> > Engineers usually more courteous?
>
> I wouldn't say "more courteous"...the older we get the more
> cranky
> we get. But the topics on this board are not generally of
> interest
> to younger yahoos and are very rarely controversial. The
> board
> tends to stay focused and, because the topics it addresses
> fall
> into a rather narrow band, it's easier to moderate. I can
> recall
> very few instances of deletion and most of those were more
> related
> to individuals "spamming" multiple boards or going wildly
> off topic.
>
> You think Seattle can get tough? Try Boston!
>

Far be it me to disagree with Les, but in this case I must. I would indeed say "more courteous" when comparing engineers to anyone who (in radio) works primarily with their lips locked on a windscreen. And the same applies to talent(less) folk in TV. I've got numbers. I'm 54 and have been in these industries directly for 20+ years and peripherally for another 10+ years, and without a doubt there are, as well, many engineers with huge egos not backed by education nor experience, but they are the exception not the rule. On the other side, though, I'm hard pressed to remember many "D.J.'s" or "P.D.'s" who were genuinely nice people. I'm not a gadfly. In fact it pains me to have to write this, but the reduction is simple ... the nice people in radio are not found in programming nor sales, they reside primarily in production and engineering. The same for TV, although TV station staffs are on the average quite large and diverse, and news departments run more amuck than programming ... but I digress.

Part of the problem is that broadcasting is owned and operated primarily by media sharks, unschooled in math (beyond the concept of income and debt) and physics (beyond studded snow tires and short pants). When you sign on to work for these geeks, you will find it challenging to maintain your sense of discipline to your work. Engineering, true engineering, is about solving problems. Good communication skills will always be your best tool, more powerful than a cabinet full of finger stock and doorknob caps. The best engineers, IMHO, are not the ones that will argue some obscure point about how a circuit works or why RF propagates off the antenna,* but those who maintain aplomb with consistency and politeness when the GM screams about ratings and the PD says the sound is wrong or the signal ain't gettin' out. A good engineer has to stand up to the brass and make it clear. That's two tough cookies. Standing up to the brass takes balls and making it clear takes those communication skills. A good engineer learns what details to underscore and which details to keep to himself. And document it. When the (BLEEP) hits the fan and all the eyes turn to the engineer, just pull out the memo and say, "Sorry, guys(gals), but I told you so."

I can talk big now, but I had to go through it all just like you. And there are some great people in radio and TV I'm sure. I am a receptive being, and I don't carry a chip on my shoulder into my business dealings. But at the end of the day, it's about people and communication, not screaming into a microphone like an idiot or trying to explain PCM to someone with a degree in English. The result of all the years I served the big guys, I'm convinced that many of those you are referring to are not the kind of folk you want at your next backyard bbq or garage jam. Dealing with them is the real challenge.

Great explanation on the tower design strength, Les.
The key point is safety margin. Affording as much safety
margin as you'd like to have is sometimes not tenable.
And even with max. safety margin, there are no protections
against flying objects that can shear a guy or bend a leg.
High winds can pick up large objects and hurl them fast and furious.
No structure above ground is immune from the most intense natural disasters.

Have you warmed up from your Alaska emergency, yet?

Cranky? Not me.

OK, I've had my 2 minutes. I'll go back to sleep.

*to make room for the next batch of RF coming up the transmission line.<P ID="signature">______________
Electricity is really just organized lightning.
~George Carlin</P>
 
Self Supporting

> Far be it me to disagree with Les, but in this case I must.

Hey! I was trying to be charitable! At least trying to appear
charitable!

I'm dealing with a situation right now where an individual wants
help but is unwilling to help himself. Since the work I do there
is uncompensated I've just set a block on my e-mail.

On the other hand, I have found the air-side to be about equally
split between decent people and the types you describe. OK, so
in the normal population the radio is about 90-10 (nice vs. @#$).
But who ever seriously accused any of us in broadcast of being
"normal"? But then I've been at it nearly 10-years longer than
you and DID originally come from the "talent" side.

> Great explanation on the tower design strength, Les.
> The key point is safety margin. Affording as much safety
> margin as you'd like to have is sometimes not tenable.

We're saying the same thing but I generally avoid using the
term "safety" as that sets many management minds off in the
direction of ..... "Why should I spend extra to make the
tower safe for people who shouldn't be climbing it and the
people I pay to work on it have the responsibility of making
sure they're safe". They, for the most part, are unable to
generalize "safety" and gotta be somehow convinced by relating
it all to the cost of replacing a tower compared with doing
anything right concerning it.

> Have you warmed up from your Alaska emergency, yet?

Too damn warm! It wasn't an emergency, though, just converting
about 1/2 of an under-used engineering shop (there being no
engineer within about 800 miles) into half shop/half production
room. Missed on that one, too. Should have put a lot more "meat"
into grounding and didn't. Now, several weeks later, some
crosstalk has developed and I won't be going back there for months.

Hey, ya gets what ya pays for!
<P ID="signature">______________
Happiness is like beer....you don't really buy it, you just rent it.</P>
 
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