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Hannity and Limbaugh gone from WBAP?
- Thread starter ropertex
- Start date
Not knowing the "bottom line numbers" for each of the CC stations, it's hard to determine who is the "real" "under performer" as ratings are not necessarily the true measure of a station's performance.LibertyNT said:
If a station is Tops in the ratings but every dollar generated is spent getting it to that level, the station performance could be considered poor. While on the other hand a station with marginal ratings and low overhead could have a better "bottom line" and would be considered a better performer than the higher rated station...
On this side of the industry fence we always seem to mistakenly equate higher ratings as a measure of a stations performance. But in the real world, the only numbers that matter to the business/investor/money side are the dollar remaining after all costs/rent/salaries/insurance/promotions etc. are backed out of the total dollars generated. If it takes spending every dollar a station makes to be number one, that could be considered an under performer...If you bill 35 million, yet spend 35 million you have made nothing...
That is so true Jay. It's all about profit just like any other business.
It even goes deeper. You need a good sales department too. I worked one market where the #1 station easily pulled double the audience as their competitor. The competitor had inferior programming and less talented air staff but the sales department was top notch and managed to bring in double and sometimes triple the revenue of the #1 station. When both those stations eventually sold, the #1 went for about $800,000 (almost half cash and almost half 'assumption of debt') while the competitor went for 2.3 million cash. It was sort of sad as the #1 station really had so much potential. The new owner made it a jukebox with syndicated morning show and started turning a profit with a skeleton staff.
Funny thing, I worked both of these stations. I made less at the #1 station than I did at their competitor and the work environment was terrible yet they had a long list of people trying to get in the door at the #1. I don't think the #1 station ever turned a profit but they were always running contests, handing out t-shirts and bumper stickers. Perhaps if they had spent more on getting a better sales staff they might have done really well, but a good sales staff requires good management and unfortunately this station had management that was paranoid in attitude and you never felt you had any security there or that your hard work held any value.
As for Limbaugh and Hannity, if CC picks them up, even on 1190, I think they will do quite well. They may not be as 'hot' as they once were but they still have a huge audience and I suspect filling every avail will be relatively easy no matter where they go, if they wind up going anywhere at all.
It even goes deeper. You need a good sales department too. I worked one market where the #1 station easily pulled double the audience as their competitor. The competitor had inferior programming and less talented air staff but the sales department was top notch and managed to bring in double and sometimes triple the revenue of the #1 station. When both those stations eventually sold, the #1 went for about $800,000 (almost half cash and almost half 'assumption of debt') while the competitor went for 2.3 million cash. It was sort of sad as the #1 station really had so much potential. The new owner made it a jukebox with syndicated morning show and started turning a profit with a skeleton staff.
Funny thing, I worked both of these stations. I made less at the #1 station than I did at their competitor and the work environment was terrible yet they had a long list of people trying to get in the door at the #1. I don't think the #1 station ever turned a profit but they were always running contests, handing out t-shirts and bumper stickers. Perhaps if they had spent more on getting a better sales staff they might have done really well, but a good sales staff requires good management and unfortunately this station had management that was paranoid in attitude and you never felt you had any security there or that your hard work held any value.
As for Limbaugh and Hannity, if CC picks them up, even on 1190, I think they will do quite well. They may not be as 'hot' as they once were but they still have a huge audience and I suspect filling every avail will be relatively easy no matter where they go, if they wind up going anywhere at all.
Of course, one has to remember that CC owns Premier (they do, don't they) so the Hannity/Rush thing is their product, and if they are clearing it on their station, all the moneys eventually filter back to a CC pocket or the hosts. With the high dollar contract of El Rushbo and the pretty hefty Hannity deal, no doubt they will HAVE to be cleared in DFW, because the Cumulus folks are GOING to clear their own product. That being said, if I was programming for CC in the Big D, I would start with 1190 but I would take some advice here on this board...get the best damn sales staff I could find, and look for an FM in the cluster that I could take over so that I could grow some younger listeners. 1190 works for mid day=early afternoon, but we all know how the drive times pretty much hurt, so the short term, 1190---long term, look for one of the CC FM's to flip. IMHO
billyg said:
No point in a simulcast. 1190 makes money with selling the broker shows...
No point in a simulcast. 1190 makes money with selling the broker shows...
[/quote]
But by how much? I'd think Hannity & Limbaugh would make much more money with a 97.1/1190 simulcast than any brokered show on 1190 would. If they wanted to keep the brokered shows they could just move them out of the way for those two. I see 1190 as a way to lure people off WBAP, KRLD, KLIF and KSKY.
With all the talk programming CC owns with Premiere they really could turn these two stations into a monster talk combo. A WOAI in Dallas? It could be done.
[/quote]
But by how much? I'd think Hannity & Limbaugh would make much more money with a 97.1/1190 simulcast than any brokered show on 1190 would. If they wanted to keep the brokered shows they could just move them out of the way for those two. I see 1190 as a way to lure people off WBAP, KRLD, KLIF and KSKY.
With all the talk programming CC owns with Premiere they really could turn these two stations into a monster talk combo. A WOAI in Dallas? It could be done.
billyg said:
They would make LESS money total from a 1190 FM simulcast. Any buy would be based on and for the FM signal, and a give-away (bonus) on 1190. Plus, when you split the spot income from an AM/FM simulcast you dilute both bottom lines...
It's apparent many people do not have an understanding of just how much an hour of air time sells for on any of the stations in DFW that are broker outlets. It ain't cheap by any measure and is much more than a typical spot rate (total across the hour) an AM in that situation can demand. If it were not the case, owners would NOT do brokered air time..
Simple...
Ratings are never a concern with that type of operation, it's all about cash for the hour period..There's no need to simulcast any FM on 1190 as they will still make money with the brokered airtime as ratings are NOT a concern, only cash literally walking in the door.
Jay Walker said:
Sgt. Hans G. Schultz said:
Sarge Sir,
Thanks for asking and the challenge ;D
While I'm not able to site specific figures for each station you list today, I do have some very good average numbers from broker situations I've been involved with in DFW in past years on similar stations.
Depending on the length of a contract, daypart and day of the week, ONE hour will go for as little as $1,000 per hour on a weekly basis across a year on the below to average facility from 7a to 7p. There are a few less than this (not many) but $1000 is the low side average in the market for the rimshot AM signals. This a CASH upfront "pay before you play" contract.
There are a number of DFW stations that get $3000 an hour or more. As you can see even if a rat-hole AM was getting $100 per spot (NOT LIKELY) and SELLING 18 units an hour the hourly income is only $1800.
Now measure that $1,000 to $3000 brokered hour (CASH upfront) where the station provides AT BEST a call screener/board op at $10 an hour, against a LIVE IN HOUSE show with the same $10 an hour board op, a single host making $45,000, and the support staff required for the rest of a local programmed station, and you quickly see why so many marginal AM stations do the broker route.
Also remember in general even the worst paid local station talent makes more and in some cases MUCH more than $45000 a year...plus there's a producer to pay and even a co-host... With a SAT-feed you still need the $10 an hour board op, and even though in the case of Premier, and Clear Channel, Premier still charges the station the clearance fee even though the companies are related..Then you still have the other hours to program and the support staff required...
If you are really curious, can can call any of the local sales managers in DFW and get a quote based on length of contract, daypart and duration for a "proposed show"...
You'll find that my numbers are pretty close...
I'm in Houston where per hour rates are about as far south as Houston is from DFW.
As for rates in this market, most of the hourly rates are around $300 and up depending on the frequency. That $300 would be for a daytimer without full market coverage (say 60%). We found by experience that if we got much north of $400 an hour, too many buyers would crash and burn in a couple of months. When we averaged it out, we actually turned about $180 an hour if we got over $400 but we could average about $250 an hour if we were around $300 per hour. These ratios based on revenue versus number of hours in the broadcast day. In other words we could get clients a plenty at $300 and keep them but always had lots of open hours when we toyed with rated over $400 an hour.
A flat out broadcast day rate might be in the neighborhood of $1,500 to $2,000 a day for a daytimer. The highest rate I heard of on a full market coverage AM fulltime station was about $80,000 a month for 6am to 6pm and their 6pm to 6am client was paying about $35,000 a month.
A rated station (aka a talk AM that sells blocks at night or on weekends) would go at a much higher rate, say, $600-$800. A friend of mine tried to lease 10 to midnight Sunday night on a marginal talk station and was quoted $800 ($400 an hour). He selected the time frame because it was so undesirable. Another guy leased overnights on a suburban talk station for $30 an hour if the station would be manned. This was not anything close to full market coverage...maybe 25%.
There is a huge gap between spot rates for spots between the top stations and those who have to try to make it off of the local business not represented by an agency. As you know, the idea of advertiser if to get enough frequency to get results for the advertiser, so to stay within a realm when enough businesses will buy to make such a venture successful, you can't get much over $20-$30 a spot and I guarantee you'll need a huge number of buyers to make it. The sales follow so many cold calls, you can easily end up in the hole based on the cost and time it takes to turn the cold call into a sale. Repeat customers are always well under 20%. In short, you'd need about $180,000 in spot sales to turn the same profit one station made by selling their broadcast day time brokered at $30,000 a month.
DFW has always been at least 50% to 100% higher than Houston airtime for some reason. $1,000 and up seems pretty high unless we're talking a formatted station that sells weekend and nighttime blocks.
Amazingly there are a few single station owners in some pretty decent areas where you can LMA a station for a few thousand a month but you must staff it, run it and pay the bills. Literally the owner takes, at best, takes a middle class salary off the station and the LMAing company pays all the expenses. I have heard of rates as low as $1,400 and as high as $8,000 a month with most in the $3,000 to $4,000 a month range.
Needless to say, rate cards mean nothing. A good company with a good history will always get the lowest rate while the unproved client that seems to be a bit too full of themselves will pay much more because it is believed they will fail and it might be a few weeks before another client takes the time.
As for rates in this market, most of the hourly rates are around $300 and up depending on the frequency. That $300 would be for a daytimer without full market coverage (say 60%). We found by experience that if we got much north of $400 an hour, too many buyers would crash and burn in a couple of months. When we averaged it out, we actually turned about $180 an hour if we got over $400 but we could average about $250 an hour if we were around $300 per hour. These ratios based on revenue versus number of hours in the broadcast day. In other words we could get clients a plenty at $300 and keep them but always had lots of open hours when we toyed with rated over $400 an hour.
A flat out broadcast day rate might be in the neighborhood of $1,500 to $2,000 a day for a daytimer. The highest rate I heard of on a full market coverage AM fulltime station was about $80,000 a month for 6am to 6pm and their 6pm to 6am client was paying about $35,000 a month.
A rated station (aka a talk AM that sells blocks at night or on weekends) would go at a much higher rate, say, $600-$800. A friend of mine tried to lease 10 to midnight Sunday night on a marginal talk station and was quoted $800 ($400 an hour). He selected the time frame because it was so undesirable. Another guy leased overnights on a suburban talk station for $30 an hour if the station would be manned. This was not anything close to full market coverage...maybe 25%.
There is a huge gap between spot rates for spots between the top stations and those who have to try to make it off of the local business not represented by an agency. As you know, the idea of advertiser if to get enough frequency to get results for the advertiser, so to stay within a realm when enough businesses will buy to make such a venture successful, you can't get much over $20-$30 a spot and I guarantee you'll need a huge number of buyers to make it. The sales follow so many cold calls, you can easily end up in the hole based on the cost and time it takes to turn the cold call into a sale. Repeat customers are always well under 20%. In short, you'd need about $180,000 in spot sales to turn the same profit one station made by selling their broadcast day time brokered at $30,000 a month.
DFW has always been at least 50% to 100% higher than Houston airtime for some reason. $1,000 and up seems pretty high unless we're talking a formatted station that sells weekend and nighttime blocks.
Amazingly there are a few single station owners in some pretty decent areas where you can LMA a station for a few thousand a month but you must staff it, run it and pay the bills. Literally the owner takes, at best, takes a middle class salary off the station and the LMAing company pays all the expenses. I have heard of rates as low as $1,400 and as high as $8,000 a month with most in the $3,000 to $4,000 a month range.
Needless to say, rate cards mean nothing. A good company with a good history will always get the lowest rate while the unproved client that seems to be a bit too full of themselves will pay much more because it is believed they will fail and it might be a few weeks before another client takes the time.
My apologies for muddling the issue by being less concise than I should have.
I should have made my rate examples much clearer. The rates were weekend daytime rates on full market coverage AM stations. Also at the time I was involved over 5 years ago, the economy was MUCH better and general station rates were much higher..
In all cases the more and longer you (CASH) commit the lower the hourly rate. There are AM outlets in town that you can get for 10 or 12K a month, BUT the coverage is less than poor. Another point of clarification, many of the properties actively brokering time in DFW are recent upgrades and move-ins. The power levels range from 5,000 watts and up. I should have also made clear, one hour a week sells for much more than a one hour per day weekly show...
I should have made my rate examples much clearer. The rates were weekend daytime rates on full market coverage AM stations. Also at the time I was involved over 5 years ago, the economy was MUCH better and general station rates were much higher..
In all cases the more and longer you (CASH) commit the lower the hourly rate. There are AM outlets in town that you can get for 10 or 12K a month, BUT the coverage is less than poor. Another point of clarification, many of the properties actively brokering time in DFW are recent upgrades and move-ins. The power levels range from 5,000 watts and up. I should have also made clear, one hour a week sells for much more than a one hour per day weekly show...
I have to admit the rates I quoted are over a range of years with the $80k a month being in force pre-2008. Getting a weekend hour on a full market coverage station I would think would at least be in the $800-$1,000per hour range.
You are absolutely right about caving on hourly rates for cash in advance, previous good track record and long term contract. If you've been at it a while with a good reputation and cash in hand, it worth taking less to have a stable and hassle-free client.
Long ago...maybe 20 years ago... at one station I recall a ministry coming in to lease our weekdays. I recall us asking $25,000 and they countered by counting out $18,000 for the first month and another $18,000 for the last month in cash. I recall making a bank deposit that day.
You are absolutely right about caving on hourly rates for cash in advance, previous good track record and long term contract. If you've been at it a while with a good reputation and cash in hand, it worth taking less to have a stable and hassle-free client.
Long ago...maybe 20 years ago... at one station I recall a ministry coming in to lease our weekdays. I recall us asking $25,000 and they countered by counting out $18,000 for the first month and another $18,000 for the last month in cash. I recall making a bank deposit that day.
metroneck said:
Seems the mass appeal "luster" is wearing a bit thin on "Political" based talk shows. That said I can think of very few formats period, which have the 25 year performance record Political Talk has delivered especially on what some consider to be a "dying" delivery platform.
Good luck buying an hour on WBAP or KRLD on Saturdays from 8am to 2pm for less than $4K per hour.
Looks like Rush will be staying on WBAP for at least 3 more years.
http://www.allaccess.com/net-news/a...-deal-to-keep-rush-limbaugh?ref=mail_bulletin
http://www.allaccess.com/net-news/a...-deal-to-keep-rush-limbaugh?ref=mail_bulletin
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