Haritage stations

[firepoint525]

I'd also point out that my contribution to the thread were WFMT (classical), along with KIOA and CHUM....stations I'm familiar with from my own experiences. With the other three (including WSM and WKDF)...I was repeating examples others had given previously.

But again, I gave those two as examples of stations that are NOT "heritage" stations. A mere mention of them within this thread does not make them "heritage."

 

[cyberdad]

I'd also point out that my contribution to the thread were WFMT (classical), along with KIOA and CHUM....stations I'm familiar with from my own experiences. With the other three (including WSM and WKDF)...I was repeating examples others had given previously.

But again, I gave those two as examples of stations that are NOT "heritage" stations. A mere mention of them within this thread does not make them "heritage."

Then I misread your post. My bad. Apologies.

 

[firepoint525]

I'd also point out that my contribution to the thread were WFMT (classical), along with KIOA and CHUM....stations I'm familiar with from my own experiences. With the other three (including WSM and WKDF)...I was repeating examples others had given previously.

But again, I gave those two as examples of stations that are NOT "heritage" stations. A mere mention of them within this thread does not make them "heritage."

Then I misread your post. My bad. Apologies.

Thanks. Well, I am at least half wrong, too, apparently. WSM has been named the 2012 Tennessee Legendary Station of the Year! You can read about it here. Only Tennessee station so far to receive such an honor.

http://www.tennradiohalloffame.org/pages/stationOfYear.php

 

[firepoint525]

I have been looking for what might be the station with the longest individual (as opposed to corporate) owner. That appears to be WNAH here in Nashville, which Van Irwin, Jr., put on the air in 1949. Because of the "Jr." suffix, I assumed that he might be the son of the original owner, but that appears not to be the case.

Hoyt Carter has been with WNAH since 1962, when he was in high school, and is apparently still with them.

Both Irwin and Carter are apparently still with them, unless this history needs to be updated.

http://wnah.com/index_files/Page316.htm

(Just to clarify, I am NOT calling this station "heritage," just pointing out a longtime owner and employee.)

But Irwin and Carter are mere children compared to Luther Masingill. Hit this link and scroll down to read about him. This was posted last year, so I don't know if it is still accurate or not, but either way, this guy would have to be considered a legend.

http://www.tennradiohalloffame.org/pages/inductees_Career.php

 

[cyberdad]

But Irwin and Carter are mere children compared to Luther Masingill. Hit this link and scroll down to read about him. This was posted last year, so I don't know if it is still accurate or not, but either way, this guy would have to be considered a legend.

http://www.tennradiohalloffame.org/pages/inductees_Career.php

This guy is beyond legend. 72-year gig as morning man and on the air during Pearl Harbor...and still going for more than a decade into the 21st century! And....Oh yeah, more than 50 years on TV with the same station.

 

[JH_Radio]

Exactly what i was thinkin! holy !

 

[bobdavcav]

WHTS was a harritage CHR until 2006, from what I understand everyone in that area knew about it. I will be 20 in December, and some stations that have been around all my life are,
KRWM 106.9 has been AC since 1992.
KMPS has been country since 1978, I think they started on 1300 am but have been on 94.1 since about 1978, I'm not clear on the history before then.
KPLZ was a top 40 station in the 80s, and flipped to Hot AC I'm not sure when, sometime in 1993 or early 1994. They've had the same morning show since the mid-1980s!
The KJR call letters have been on 950 since actually only about the 1970s, when they swapped with KOMO. They've been around in this market since 1922. KOMO has been here since 1926, and KIRO since 1937, although all have gone through numerous changes since then. If I have my history right, KIRO was a news station since 1975, and continues with its news and talk format on 97.3. I usually think of KOMO as the all news station though. KDWB and WBBM-FM have been CHR or some variant thereof since at least the late 70s, if not before, probably before for KDWB if you count all the frequency changes it went through in its early years.
KKRZ has also been around a long time, almost as long as the station in NYC that it's patterned after.

 

[michael hagerty]

The KOMO-KIRO frequency swap was 1944, not 1974.

 

[davideduardo]

The KJR call letters have been on 950 since actually only about the 1970s, when they swapped with KOMO.

KJR has been on 950 since NARBA in 1942. Prior to that, it was on 970 going back to the reassignment of frequencies by the FRC in 1927.

KOMO was on 920 in 1930... they also moved per NARBA, ending up on 1000.

 

[jim wilkinson]

Re: Heritage stations

It's interesting how many people posted call letters before any attempt to agree on a definition of "heritage." A lot of stations toss the word around. In station promotion, it seems to mean they've had the format longer than their competitors in the same format.

If we set the bar at 50 years, same calls, same city, same format, there are very few "heritage" stations.

Do we allow changes of owners?
Or change of frequency? Like WQXR-FM. It's been classical forever, but in the FCC license files, it's a different station.
Do we allow for formats to evolve? If a station flips from full service to all news, with a (mostly) clean break (like WBBM), it seems like that should reset the clock. But if a station evolves from full service and over time become talk (like WGN), then the clock keeps running.
What about wholesale personnel changes, especially going from local-live to syndicated or voice-tracked. Seem to me they aren't "heritage" no matter how long they stay with a format. Only local-live stations should be considered.

Well, then the problem becomes where we draw that line. Is there that much difference between 50 years and 45?

Is KNX not a heritage station today, but if nothing changes by 2018, it will become one?

Given the speed of change in our world, and the historic runs of legendary stations (KMPC only had 28 years as a personality MOR/AC, WABC only had 22 as Top 40), I think it may be more realistic to set the bar at 25 or 30 years.

Frequency changes should reset the clock, as should a shift of more than one-third of the programming from live & local to satellite.

This is all very interesting, but frustrating. Michael Hagerty's point is well taken. I believe the original poster on this thread was pretty sloppy about nailing down a consensus as to what we're talking about.

Heritage calls (IMO) refer to an identity and market image that is linked to a broadcaster's use of a call-sign over many years. I live in the Pittsburgh market served by KDKA 1020 AM, since 1920. By some definitions espoused above, in this thread, KDKA would not qualify as a "heritage" station. That's just silly.

KDKA radio flirted with top 40 in the 1960s, but it mostly day-parted that, and "full service O&O" would best describe it, down through the many decades. The transition from music and talk, to virtually no music and talk, to news/talk was nearly seamless.

When Westinghouse bought WDTV Channel 3 from Du Mont Television in 1954-55, they were successful in assigning the KDKA moniker to what would become a CBS affiliate on channel 2. Nearly 60 years ago, "KDKA" had market value as an intangible asset, for its "heritage." That value survives today, because of a place the radio and television stations both have in their community, as servants to that community. No doubt, some of that is attributable to the dominance those broadcasters achieved over local competitors, within the broadcast industry. Format and personalities involved had plenty to do with that, too.

By contrast, in 2010 "KDKA" was assigned to change CBS-owned 93.7 FM's image as a music station to a sports-talk outlet. (To a much younger audience, that station might have been called a "heritage" FM Top 40 rocker, during its heyday as B-94 from 1981 to 2004.) As it turns out, 93.7 is "The Fan" and Legal IDs are practically buried. KDKA-FM is perhaps embarrassed of its "heritage" calls? or perhaps concerned that the use of them in this case could detract from the reputation connected with them, (on AM & TV) elsewhere?

 

[FredLeonard]

KDKA was not at 1020 until 1942. It was never a "full service O&O." It's format was full service but was not owned and operated by a network. It was owned by Westinghouse. It was an NBC affiliate until 1954 (and until 1940 was operated but not owned by NBC).

 

[jim wilkinson]

KDKA was not at 1020 until 1942. It was never a "full service O&O." It's format was full service but was not owned and operated by a network. It was owned by Westinghouse. It was an NBC affiliate until 1954 (and until 1940 was operated but not owned by NBC).

Its pretty ridiculous to make any distinctions about the frequency shifts mandated by the FCC in 1941. Stations all across the lower end of the AM spectrum were forced to change frequencies. I was not implying that 1020 was the sole dial position for KDKA, throughout its pioneering history. The station appeared at a number of positions in the MW band and simulcast on SW frequencies, during the 1920s. So what?

I live nearly across the street from Wendy's restaurant that stands where Dr. Frank Conrad lived. (The drive-thru sits where the carriage house stood - the site of 8XK. THOSE are some "heritage calls!")

KDKA was to change its radio network affiliation in part, due to the acquisition of that Du Mont TV station by Westinghouse in 1954, and their desire to go with CBS Television as their primary TV network affiliation. Westinghouse has owned (and operated) a number of radio & television stations, over the past 50 years. A substantial amount of programming was produced by Westinghouse and Group W. With a lot of shared material between them, Group W was a network-with-a-network.

It is erroneous to assert that NBC "operated" KDKA "up to 1940." Westinghouse was operating KDKA three years before RCA bought a radio station, and six years before any such thing as NBC existed. And... Westinghouse owned 20% of NBC!

 

[michael hagerty]

Re: Heritage stations

It's interesting how many people posted call letters before any attempt to agree on a definition of "heritage." A lot of stations toss the word around. In station promotion, it seems to mean they've had the format longer than their competitors in the same format.

If we set the bar at 50 years, same calls, same city, same format, there are very few "heritage" stations.

Do we allow changes of owners?
Or change of frequency? Like WQXR-FM. It's been classical forever, but in the FCC license files, it's a different station.
Do we allow for formats to evolve? If a station flips from full service to all news, with a (mostly) clean break (like WBBM), it seems like that should reset the clock. But if a station evolves from full service and over time become talk (like WGN), then the clock keeps running.
What about wholesale personnel changes, especially going from local-live to syndicated or voice-tracked. Seem to me they aren't "heritage" no matter how long they stay with a format. Only local-live stations should be considered.

Well, then the problem becomes where we draw that line. Is there that much difference between 50 years and 45?

Is KNX not a heritage station today, but if nothing changes by 2018, it will become one?

Given the speed of change in our world, and the historic runs of legendary stations (KMPC only had 28 years as a personality MOR/AC, WABC only had 22 as Top 40), I think it may be more realistic to set the bar at 25 or 30 years.

Frequency changes should reset the clock, as should a shift of more than one-third of the programming from live & local to satellite.

This is all very interesting, but frustrating. Michael Hagerty's point is well taken. I believe the original poster on this thread was pretty sloppy about nailing down a consensus as to what we're talking about.

Heritage calls (IMO) refer to an identity and market image that is linked to a broadcaster's use of a call-sign over many years. I live in the Pittsburgh market served by KDKA 1020 AM, since 1920. By some definitions espoused above, in this thread, KDKA would not qualify as a "heritage" station. That's just silly.

KDKA radio flirted with top 40 in the 1960s, but it mostly day-parted that, and "full service O&O" would best describe it, down through the many decades. The transition from music and talk, to virtually no music and talk, to news/talk was nearly seamless.

When Westinghouse bought WDTV Channel 3 from Du Mont Television in 1954-55, they were successful in assigning the KDKA moniker to what would become a CBS affiliate on channel 2. Nearly 60 years ago, "KDKA" had market value as an intangible asset, for its "heritage." That value survives today, because of a place the radio and television stations both have in their community, as servants to that community. No doubt, some of that is attributable to the dominance those broadcasters achieved over local competitors, within the broadcast industry. Format and personalities involved had plenty to do with that, too.

By contrast, in 2010 "KDKA" was assigned to change CBS-owned 93.7 FM's image as a music station to a sports-talk outlet. (To a much younger audience, that station might have been called a "heritage" FM Top 40 rocker, during its heyday as B-94 from 1981 to 2004.) As it turns out, 93.7 is "The Fan" and Legal IDs are practically buried. KDKA-FM is perhaps embarrassed of its "heritage" calls? or perhaps concerned that the use of them in this case could detract from the reputation connected with them, (on AM & TV) elsewhere?

I don't think embarrassment on the part of the FM or fear of tarnishing the AM and TV have anything to do with it. It's just branding. It establishes an identity for the FM and reduces the possibility of confusion with the AM.

 

[davideduardo]

Its pretty ridiculous to make any distinctions about the frequency shifts mandated by the FCC in 1941. Stations all across the lower end of the AM spectrum were forced to change frequencies. I was not implying that 1020 was the sole dial position for KDKA, throughout its pioneering history. The station appeared at a number of positions in the MW band and simulcast on SW frequencies, during the 1920s. So what?

I agree that frequency shifts should not be a reset point for a station's heritage status.

The frequent shifts to avoid interference in the early 20's, the massive FRC reallocation in 1927 and the NARBA changes of 1941 were federally mandated "bulk" changes and did not affect the nature of the program service of any station that was moved up or down the dial.

However, NARBA did not affect stations below 750 kcs, but only those up the "right side" of the dial.

I'd disagree that WQXR's recent frequency move, for example, changes anything. Same format, same basic programming. In fact, some stations made complete transitions from AM to FM while retaining the format and air talent, and should not be considered to have lost equity and heritage... Such cases range from stations like WBBQ, a hugely successful Top 40 Class IV AM that moved to FM and continued dominant for years to WKAQ, Puerto Rico's first Top 40 which started under Mike Joseph in 1968 and is, now on FM, still the dominant station in the format 45 years later.

 

[FredLeonard]

It is erroneous to assert that NBC "operated" KDKA "up to 1940." Westinghouse was operating KDKA three years before RCA bought a radio station, and six years before any such thing as NBC existed. And... Westinghouse owned 20% of NBC!

When RCA was established, NBC took over operation of GE and Westinghouse stations until the government broke up the RCA trust. All Westinghouse radio stations were NBC affiliates. Westinghouse's acquisition of what became KDKA-TV had nothing to do with the company's decision to end NBC affiliations on all its radio properties.

 

[jim wilkinson]

Its pretty ridiculous to make any distinctions about the frequency shifts mandated by the FCC in 1941. Stations all across the lower end of the AM spectrum were forced to change frequencies. I was not implying that 1020 was the sole dial position for KDKA, throughout its pioneering history. The station appeared at a number of positions in the MW band and simulcast on SW frequencies, during the 1920s. So what?

I agree that frequency shifts should not be a reset point for a station's heritage status.

The frequent shifts to avoid interference in the early 20's, the massive FRC reallocation in 1927 and the NARBA changes of 1941 were federally mandated "bulk" changes and did not affect the nature of the program service of any station that was moved up or down the dial.

However, NARBA did not affect stations below 750 kcs, but only those up the "right side" of the dial.

Thanks, DavidEduardo, for setting this straight. I had posted exactly the opposite info, about NARBA. Haha, substitute "upper" for "lower" to make sense out of the correct "...end of the AM spectrum were forced to change..."

 

[jim wilkinson]

It is erroneous to assert that NBC "operated" KDKA "up to 1940." Westinghouse was operating KDKA three years before RCA bought a radio station, and six years before any such thing as NBC existed. And... Westinghouse owned 20% of NBC!

When RCA was established, NBC took over operation of GE and Westinghouse stations until the government broke up the RCA trust. All Westinghouse radio stations were NBC affiliates. Westinghouse's acquisition of what became KDKA-TV had nothing to do with the company's decision to end NBC affiliations on all its radio properties.

I'm sorry, FredLeonard, I am still having difficult reconciling with what you are saying. KDKA began with 100 watts from the roof-top of Westinghouse Electrics K-building in East Pittsburgh borough, in late 1920. RCA first started work on connecting WJZ Newark, NJ with WRC Washington D.C. in 1923. NBC wasn't created until 1926. So you can see why I had a problem with your phrase "until 1940." in your earlier post, when you seemed interested in detailed accuracy.

After buying WDTV from Du Mont, the decision to affiliate KDKA-TV with CBS sprung in part from Westinghouse's difficulties with NBC over Boston, Philadelphia and Cleveland, and the "forced" swap of WNBK for KYW. Hardly surprising for NBC: the loss of its affiliation with KDKA radio and its Westinghouse family of stations. NBC subsequently purchased WJAS and WJAS-FM in 1957.

 

[FredLeonard]

Jim: As I said, when RCA was established, NBC operated the GE and Westinghouse stations and owned and operated NBC's own stations. Obviously, RCA could not do this before it and NBC launched.

Westinghouse dropped NBC radio on all its stations because of NBC requirements to carry network advertising, which conflicted with Westinghouse's plan to introduce a full service/top 40 format on its stations. The Cleveland-Philly TV swap was another issue and did nothing to improve relations between the two companies.

Westinghouse took CBS as the primary affiliation for their Pittsburgh TV station because at the time CBS had a far stronger programming line-up (ironically enough, based on the strength of shows and performers lured away from NBC). It was the only UHF station in town for the first few years and, therefore, took programming from all three networks (including NBC).

When channel 11 finally signed on, NBC had one show in the top 10 (CBS had nine). One additional show in the top 20 and two more shows in the top 30. ABC had two shows in the top 30. All the rest were CBS. From a programming standpoint, CBS was the logical choice with which to affiliate.