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Has anyone ever received 94.9 WHOM in E-skip?
- Thread starter radiojay1
- Start date
Nick said:
These pirates have no fear. They're on the air everywhere.
From about 10 mi S of Worcester, MA (or about 160-170 mi from Mt. Wash) we used to receive HOM on a regular basis with the station locking on to the scan/seek function in some areas, albeit hilltops. But even in the recesses of the valley, one could manually tune in HOM. The signal was listenable into far northern RI and NE CT. North of Albany NY (Glens Falls and Saratoga) one can get HOM as well. Therefore the station was received in 7 states and 3 Canadian provinces. I think CT and RI were mostly eliminated eliminated by the new Worcester MA translator that broadcasts AM 580 WTAG Worcester. Not sure about the CT beaches...
On a sligtly different note,I got WHOM on a stock truck radio 5 yrs or so ago in southern Nova Scotia-Yarmouth area which had to be at least 200-250 mi from Mt Wash. Station was weak and in stereo but suprisingly little fading. I don't believe it was a tropo event but don't know enough about the area to be sure.
Being 160-180 mi from the transmitter, I have not received the station on e-skip.
On a sligtly different note,I got WHOM on a stock truck radio 5 yrs or so ago in southern Nova Scotia-Yarmouth area which had to be at least 200-250 mi from Mt Wash. Station was weak and in stereo but suprisingly little fading. I don't believe it was a tropo event but don't know enough about the area to be sure.
Being 160-180 mi from the transmitter, I have not received the station on e-skip.
My guess is that, theoretically, WHOM is no more likely to be heard via e-skip than any other Class B or C station. Frankly, I would think that 50 to 100 kw signals coming from shorter sticks probably do better because they can punch more signal into the ionisphere to be bounced back down 1,500 miles away. The line-of-sight advantage that WHOM enjoys from atop Mt. Washington probably doesn't do much to aid e-skip.
Now, most of the posts here seem to address tropospheric ducting which would certainly help WHOM. However, again I wonder how much the great line-of-sight helps with this. Portland, Boston and Providence stations seem to more often enjoy skip via tropo than WHOM does. That's thanks to the coastal location.
Then again, when you have an awesome 'normal' range as WHOM enjoys, a little enhancement goes a long way (literally).
It's a shame that the FCC loves to think that the laws of physics follow county and state boundaries and chose to plop a translator on 94.9 west of Worcester. When that thing was off, WHOM came in pretty well in many of those areas (particularly northern Worcester County). And yes, you could listen to a decent signal from WHOM from northeasterly facing hills in NE Connecticut too. BUT, those folks aren't in "WHOM's market" and thus they have no right to listen to WHOM. So T.S. for them. And so it goes....
Now, most of the posts here seem to address tropospheric ducting which would certainly help WHOM. However, again I wonder how much the great line-of-sight helps with this. Portland, Boston and Providence stations seem to more often enjoy skip via tropo than WHOM does. That's thanks to the coastal location.
Then again, when you have an awesome 'normal' range as WHOM enjoys, a little enhancement goes a long way (literally).
It's a shame that the FCC loves to think that the laws of physics follow county and state boundaries and chose to plop a translator on 94.9 west of Worcester. When that thing was off, WHOM came in pretty well in many of those areas (particularly northern Worcester County). And yes, you could listen to a decent signal from WHOM from northeasterly facing hills in NE Connecticut too. BUT, those folks aren't in "WHOM's market" and thus they have no right to listen to WHOM. So T.S. for them. And so it goes....
>> BUT, those folks aren't in "WHOM's market" and thus they have no right to listen to WHOM. So T.S. for them. And so it goes....>>
That's been the FCC's way of doing business for quite some time.
That's been the FCC's way of doing business for quite some time.
BRNout said:
But of course that's not the way the rules are written. Way back in 1964, when the FCC adopted its present system of designating FM stations by class, WHOM (then WMTW-FM) fell under the rules for class B stations. Ever since then - 45 years now - it has enjoyed protection from interference only to the predicted contours of a maximum class B station.
That has nothing to do with county or state boundaries, and nothing to do with the concept of "a right to listen" or "WHOM's market." If an allocation can be dropped in within the FCC's current spacing standards, there's nothing in the FCC rules that considers whether it's in the same state as an existing station, or within the same "market."
Like any allocations decision, the choice to protect grandfathered class B stations only to a standard B contour was a balance struck - rightly or wrongly - between the idea of maximizing service from a small number of high-powered facilities, or providing additional local service to smaller areas through the use of tighter allocations standards. And through the use of predicted contours to determine predicted interference, it was actually quite respectful of the laws of physics, which is more than I can say for some of the decisions made by subsequent Commissions.
(WHOM, incidentally, has been fortunate over the years in that the pattern of other allotments around New England has provided some accidental "protection" far beyond its own protected contours - WXTK on Cape Cod moved from 94.3A to 94.9B in the late eighties, as the rules allowed, but then shifted to 95.1B a few years later, clearing 94.9 again; a 94.9A allotment in Montauk NY, at the end of Long Island, foundered in the economic doldrums of the early nineties and was never built.)
True E-skip at 4 meters is extremely rare. It will be six years, if we're lucky, before it's even remotely possible again.
You might catch Sporadic-E at 4-meter wavelengths, but that's a different phenomenon altogether. Sporadic-E clouds form in the E layer (hence the name), but they're typically short-lived, small, and not stationary. Tropospheric ducting may waveguide HOM's signal straight to your house if there's a cold or warm front in a line between you and HOM, but that too is usually short-lived.
We're currently in a prolonged sunspot minimum (well over a year now). Ionospheric propagation of any kind barely reaches 20 MHz these days.
I wouldn't hold my breath.
You might catch Sporadic-E at 4-meter wavelengths, but that's a different phenomenon altogether. Sporadic-E clouds form in the E layer (hence the name), but they're typically short-lived, small, and not stationary. Tropospheric ducting may waveguide HOM's signal straight to your house if there's a cold or warm front in a line between you and HOM, but that too is usually short-lived.
We're currently in a prolonged sunspot minimum (well over a year now). Ionospheric propagation of any kind barely reaches 20 MHz these days.
I wouldn't hold my breath.
> True E-skip at 4 meters is extremely rare.
Huh?
It's not rare at all. It's just seasonal.
FM broadcast is roughly 3 meters -- higher than 4 meters.* I heard sporadic-E many times on FM last year, riding around town on a car radio. I worked sporadic-E on 2 meter ham (144 MHz) on 5 -- count 'em 5 -- separate occasions last year. I can't tell you how many times I saw/worked Es on 50 MHz last Summer; it's almost a daily event between May and early August.
The Solar Cycle has very, very little to do with sporadic-E. "True" (?) Es works independent of the Solar Cycle. F2-layer stuff is dependent on the Cycle, and to be honest, I haven't seen ANY F2 on 50 MHz in three or four years (I would have to pull my log -- last opening on 50 MHz was to Argentina.
I suppose we could discuss Auroral-induced Es and the Solar Cycle, but that's a bit esoteric.
The station in question -- WHOM -- would be an easy target here in Memphis in Summer, if I didn't have a local on that channel.
DE
*4 meters would fall in the US low-band VHF TV spectrum. Analog TV Es is really common, but will be going away this Summer. Europe has a ham band in this part of the spectrum, but we don't get to use it here.
Huh?
It's not rare at all. It's just seasonal.
FM broadcast is roughly 3 meters -- higher than 4 meters.* I heard sporadic-E many times on FM last year, riding around town on a car radio. I worked sporadic-E on 2 meter ham (144 MHz) on 5 -- count 'em 5 -- separate occasions last year. I can't tell you how many times I saw/worked Es on 50 MHz last Summer; it's almost a daily event between May and early August.
The Solar Cycle has very, very little to do with sporadic-E. "True" (?) Es works independent of the Solar Cycle. F2-layer stuff is dependent on the Cycle, and to be honest, I haven't seen ANY F2 on 50 MHz in three or four years (I would have to pull my log -- last opening on 50 MHz was to Argentina.
I suppose we could discuss Auroral-induced Es and the Solar Cycle, but that's a bit esoteric.
The station in question -- WHOM -- would be an easy target here in Memphis in Summer, if I didn't have a local on that channel.
DE
*4 meters would fall in the US low-band VHF TV spectrum. Analog TV Es is really common, but will be going away this Summer. Europe has a ham band in this part of the spectrum, but we don't get to use it here.
"DeadElvis", please go back and read what I wrote again, but more carefully this time.
You are talking about Sporadic-E. One of the very first things I wrote is that Sporadic-E is not the same as true E-layer propagation. Specifically:
If true E-layer skip weren't dependent on solar radiation, 10 meters would be open somewhere on a regular basis. When's the last time you heard 10 meters open up on a daily basis? I haven't heard squat on 10 meters for years, except for occaisional Sporadic-E openings. I don't know where you're getting your E-layer information, but it doesn't match any ionospheric propagation model I've ever encountered. It almost sounds like you're confusing Sporadic-E with solar-induced E-layer refraction (which does happen, I assure you). Sporadic-E is not the only form of E-layer propagation.
Okay, so I said "4 meters" instead of "3 meters", but that doesn't make what I said any less true. If 4 meters isn't open, 3 meters won't be, either.
Now, if by "e-skip" someone means "sporadic-e", then I'm sorry, but they are not the same thing.
You are talking about Sporadic-E. One of the very first things I wrote is that Sporadic-E is not the same as true E-layer propagation. Specifically:
Thom Rounds said:
If true E-layer skip weren't dependent on solar radiation, 10 meters would be open somewhere on a regular basis. When's the last time you heard 10 meters open up on a daily basis? I haven't heard squat on 10 meters for years, except for occaisional Sporadic-E openings. I don't know where you're getting your E-layer information, but it doesn't match any ionospheric propagation model I've ever encountered. It almost sounds like you're confusing Sporadic-E with solar-induced E-layer refraction (which does happen, I assure you). Sporadic-E is not the only form of E-layer propagation.
Okay, so I said "4 meters" instead of "3 meters", but that doesn't make what I said any less true. If 4 meters isn't open, 3 meters won't be, either.
Now, if by "e-skip" someone means "sporadic-e", then I'm sorry, but they are not the same thing.
> When's the last time you heard 10 meters open up on a daily basis?
Umm. Now.
If I listen carefully to 10m daily, I will hear something. Most common is a particular 10m repeater in NYC. I hear it almost every day I check, for some amount of time. I have 10m FM in the car. It'll pop squelch as I drive about. It's often weak, but it's there. Boston is less regular, but not uncommon.
Further, at least at this latitude, I'll get some degree of trans-equatorial stuff almost daily. I don't even pay attention to the big PYs or LUs on 10m. I hear them all the time. Yawn. There are some big KP4s I'll hear chatting on 28.315 often.
10m is open MUCH more often than people realize. But, there is chicken-and-egg issue. If no one thinks the band is open, no one is there. But, on contest weekends, the band is often full. Funny, that.
OK. We'll re-read, carefully this time: Ionospheric propagation of any kind barely reaches 20 MHz these days.
Really? Any kind? Really?!
DE
Umm. Now.
If I listen carefully to 10m daily, I will hear something. Most common is a particular 10m repeater in NYC. I hear it almost every day I check, for some amount of time. I have 10m FM in the car. It'll pop squelch as I drive about. It's often weak, but it's there. Boston is less regular, but not uncommon.
Further, at least at this latitude, I'll get some degree of trans-equatorial stuff almost daily. I don't even pay attention to the big PYs or LUs on 10m. I hear them all the time. Yawn. There are some big KP4s I'll hear chatting on 28.315 often.
10m is open MUCH more often than people realize. But, there is chicken-and-egg issue. If no one thinks the band is open, no one is there. But, on contest weekends, the band is often full. Funny, that.
OK. We'll re-read, carefully this time: Ionospheric propagation of any kind barely reaches 20 MHz these days.
Really? Any kind? Really?!
DE
Thom Rounds said:
This reference:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ivdWei8jb-cC&pg=PA281&lpg=PA281&dq=E-layer+propagation&source=bl&ots=Fwt4qPwvPS&sig=EL4fkqdc4LRA1QHCOM_vljay_r8&hl=en&ei=tcLaSZGlBJeDmAfwxujHCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#PPA282,M1
does (poorly) state that there is a separate E-layer propagation mode that works at medium wave and shortwave, independent of sporadic-E. (other books have put it better but this was the first one at hand...) The term "E-skip" doesn't appear in this article - not to refer to the MW/SW mode nor to the VHF mode.
There *is*, as you say, solar-induced E-layer refraction - but *nobody* calls it "E-skip". In practical usage the terms "E-skip" and "sporadic-E" are synonyms.
DeadElvis said:
What is this, Junior High?
Whoever you are, give it a rest. I didn't come here to fence with you. Go find someone else to pick a fight with.
Like it or not, Sporadic-E and solar-induced E-layer refraction are not the same thing.
w9wi said:
If that's the case, then so be it; but it's a very poor choice of synonyms. It leads people like "DeadElvis" to beleive that there's no other kind of E-layer propagation except for Sporadic-E. That's not at all true, and used to be something you had to know to get a ham license.
I guess the old buzzards were right after all. Bummer.
Nick said:
Unfortunately, no. (at least not in the time FM radio has existed
) I've seen it stay above 57MHz (TV channel 2) for more than 24 hours straight, and in the FM band for upwards of ten hours at a time, but that was an *exceptional* opening.
_________________________________________________
w9wi said:
Thom Rounds said:
Well, nobody calls F-layer propagation "F-skip" so I don't really think using "E-skip" to refer to the sporadic VHF (and high-HF) mode is at all misleading. It is unfortunate that the solar-induced E mode is not better known though it's of little practical import to the FM listeners in this thread.
Really, is it that important to recognize a distinction? The way I've always looked at it is that E-layer propagation is not particularly unusual. (at any point in the solar cycle) What's unusual are the sporadic spikes in MUF we call "sporadic-E". Really it's all pretty much the same mode.
w9wi said:
Sure, but the F layer(s) doesn't host several different forms of propagation enhancement that are entirely unrelated to each other, and to primary mode F(2/1)-layer refraction. The E layer does. Putting a generic label on a specific mode makes it hard for people who want to understand it better to find any information on it. Like you said, the term "E-skip" doesn't appear in any books on the topic, so where is a hungry mind to go?
w9wi said:
Well, turn that question around: is it harmful to recognize the distinction? It may seem like mere semantics, but it isn't.
A broadcast DXer distiguishes beteween E-layer and tropospheric enhancement, right? Really, is it that important to recognize a distinction? I guess it must be, because they do.
I'm sorry, but your definition of Sporadic-E is also incorrect. It is not a "sporadic spike in MUF", nor "pretty much the same mode" as E-layer refraction. It's a completely unrelated phenomenon. You've been licensed since at least 1994, so I'm quite suprised you made that mistake. I got my Advanced in 1994, and that was on my exam.
MUF is a measurement of the maximum usable frequency between point "A" and point "B" (and only those two points). That's a measurement of what you and I would consider to be normal ionospheric propagation, and is entirely predictable. Sporadic-E openings don't count, because they don't establish a predictable circuit between two points. The circuit only exists as long as the particle cloud exists in the right spot to establish a reflective (not refractive) path. It neither reliable nor predictable. Solar-induced E-layer refraction is both.
So if "e-skip" means Sporadic-E, MUF doesn't enter into it. I see a lot of people putting the terms "MUF" and "e-skip" together in a sentence, which means people are misinformed and/or confused about what's really going on up there.
So yes, I think it is worth knowing the difference; particularly if those of us who had to know these things to get our licenses are explaining them to someone who wants to understand them better. It's not just semantics when it clears up misinformation spawned by ambiguity.
Sorry if this is exhausting, guys... I just don't worship at the temple of "freedom from information". There's no harm in understanding these things, and many wrong conclusions drawn from misunderstanding them.
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