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"have a little bigotry with your music"

S

SuperRadioFan

This was a comment made in response to me--- it followed the name of the song "Indian Reservation". I'm trying to figure out if this is an accurate depiction of the lyrics to this song seen at this link:
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/raiders/indian-reservation.html

I don't think so, but I'd like your input since most of us are oldies fans.
BTW, it would be REAL nice if the person who made this comment could refrain from commenting at least until we have a few posts of opinion :>)
(I don't think he can...but maybe he'll shock me LOL!!)
 
These are the true words of the song. The sub-title (I believe) was "the lament of the Cherokee". Read the story on how this song was produced and recorded. From what I recall from memory, in the late 1960's, Mark Lindsay's car broke down in the middle of the Cherokee Reservation and he was unable to get help for some time. If you've been stranded in the desert, like I have, you know what it can be like. Eventually, he DID get help from a helpful member of the tribe. But in the meantime, while he was getting his car fixed, he saw first-hand the less-than-acceptable conditions many members of the tribe had to live with. He promised that he would let the world know of the plight of the Cherokee Nation and other Native Americans have had to endure for centuries. He kept his promise and got a gold record with this song as well. It still plays on the radio today.

> This was a comment made in response to me--- it followed the
> name of the song "Indian Reservation". I'm trying to figure
> out if this is an accurate depiction of the lyrics to this
> song seen at this link:
> http://www.lyricsdepot.com/raiders/indian-reservation.html
>
> I don't think so, but I'd like your input since most of us
> are oldies fans.
> BTW, it would be REAL nice if the person who made this
> comment could refrain from commenting at least until we have
> a few posts of opinion :>)
> (I don't think he can...but maybe he'll shock me LOL!!)
> <P ID="signature">______________
Peter Q. George (K1XRB)
Whitman, Massachusetts</P>
 
Thanks, Peter, great story!! Thankfully, I have never experienced being stranded in the desert, though I have experienced the desert (I'm in SoCal).

What I wanted to know is why would someone say have a little bigotry with your music meaning this song. It doesn't seem to be coming from a bigotry POV, actually it decries bigotry. PS, the poster who responded to me seems to think its a horrible oldie for any station to play. :>) I don't agree, tho' I like all Paul Revere/Mark Lindsey's songs including Arizona.
Have a good Friday night~!
 
> Thanks, Peter, great story!! Thankfully, I have never
> experienced being stranded in the desert, though I have
> experienced the desert (I'm in SoCal).
>
> What I wanted to know is why would someone say have a little
> bigotry with your music meaning this song. It doesn't seem
> to be coming from a bigotry POV, actually it decries
> bigotry. PS, the poster who responded to me seems to think
> its a horrible oldie for any station to play. :>) I don't
> agree, tho' I like all Paul Revere/Mark Lindsey's songs
> including Arizona.
> Have a good Friday night~!
>


The song was originally recorded and charted by British Don Pardon before Mark and The Raiders got their hands on it. It was top 20, but I never remembered it being played on the nations airwaves if at all. It sounded like if anyone played, it was MOR radio.
 
> These are the true words of the song. The sub-title (I
> believe) was "the lament of the Cherokee". Read the story
> on how this song was produced and recorded. From what I
> recall from memory, in the late 1960's, Mark Lindsay's car
> broke down in the middle of the Cherokee Reservation and he
> was unable to get help for some time. If you've been
> stranded in the desert, like I have, you know what it can be
> like. Eventually, he DID get help from a helpful member of
> the tribe. But in the meantime, while he was getting his car
> fixed, he saw first-hand the less-than-acceptable conditions
> many members of the tribe had to live with. He promised
> that he would let the world know of the plight of the
> Cherokee Nation and other Native Americans have had to
> endure for centuries. He kept his promise and got a gold
> record with this song as well. It still plays on the radio
> today.

Maybe the story's true, but I doubt it happened to Mark Lindsay. Songwriting credit is to John D. Loudermilk. Don Fardon had a minor hit with the song in 1968...3 years before the Raiders' version.
 
> Thanks, Peter, great story!! Thankfully, I have never
> experienced being stranded in the desert, though I have
> experienced the desert (I'm in SoCal).
>
> What I wanted to know is why would someone say have a little
> bigotry with your music meaning this song. It doesn't seem
> to be coming from a bigotry POV, actually it decries
> bigotry.

It is reinforcing a stereotype, in many ways, right down to the tom toms in the music. It may have seemed liberal in the year it was written, but it does not play that way today.

> PS, the poster who responded to me seems to think
> its a horrible oldie for any station to play. :>) I don't
> agree, tho' I like all Paul Revere/Mark Lindsey's songs
> including Arizona.

They don't test. They are more negative than positive. they drive listeners away.
 
The "bigotry" is in the stupid "testing" hokum.

I don't believe a lot of it and a lot of good playable music is sitting

on a shelf because of it.

(Charge my two cents to my account, please.)<P ID="signature">______________
"Be seeing you..."</P>
 
> > Thanks, Peter, great story!! Thankfully, I have never
> > experienced being stranded in the desert, though I have
> > experienced the desert (I'm in SoCal).
> >
> > What I wanted to know is why would someone say have a
> little
> > bigotry with your music meaning this song. It doesn't
> seem
> > to be coming from a bigotry POV, actually it decries
> > bigotry.
>
> It is reinforcing a stereotype, in many ways, right down to
> the tom toms in the music. It may have seemed liberal in the
> year it was written, but it does not play that way today.
>
> > PS, the poster who responded to me seems to think
> > its a horrible oldie for any station to play. :>) I don't
> > agree, tho' I like all Paul Revere/Mark Lindsey's songs
> > including Arizona.
>
> They don't test. They are more negative than positive. they
> drive listeners away.

> Paul Revere & Raiders songs dont test well? Right....where did you get that? Several of their songs are staples of the oldies format. Kicks, Hungry, Just Like Me and Indian Reservation all get airplay on EVERY oldies formated station I have heard. Who are you testing, junior high kids? This testing formula needs to be revamped or put into the circular file. I would love to hear what oldies station doesnt play those hits. Give me a break.....
>
 
>
> > Paul Revere & Raiders songs dont test well?
> Right....where did you get that?

Most of them do not test, and any that do are very marginal.

> Several of their songs
> are staples of the oldies format. Kicks, Hungry, Just Like
> Me and Indian Reservation all get airplay on EVERY oldies
> formated station I have heard. Who are you testing, junior
> high kids?

P1s and P2s who listen more that 4 hours a week. In other words, core.

> This testing formula needs to be revamped or put
> into the circular file.

Music testing works 100% of the time if you test the right people and implement intelliently. What could possibly be wrong with asking listeners how much they do or do not want to hear a song on the radio?

> I would love to hear what oldies
> station doesnt play those hits. Give me a break.....

I travel all over... and I can not think of any that do. If they do play them, it is in very light or platooned rotations.

Lat time I heard it was in the company of several other programmers with lots of major market experience. We were waiting for a flight out of Jackson Hole, and the local oldies outlet spun "Indian" and the result was blank looks of disbelief followed by laughter.

Not that it proves too much, but I just went to a major P2P network, and searched on "Revere" and "raiders" and came up with two instances of Indian Reservation, and nothing else. I tried a representative doo wop song, Earth Angel, and found over 20 hits: Penguins got me even more. This is not the most memorable artist in the oldies repertoire. It's the American equivalent of Herman's Hermits or something like that...
 
> >
> > > Paul Revere & Raiders songs dont test well?
> > Right....where did you get that?
>
> Most of them do not test, and any that do are very marginal.
>
>
> > Several of their songs
> > are staples of the oldies format. Kicks, Hungry, Just
> Like
> > Me and Indian Reservation all get airplay on EVERY oldies
> > formated station I have heard. Who are you testing, junior
>
> > high kids?
>
> P1s and P2s who listen more that 4 hours a week. In other
> words, core.
>
> > This testing formula needs to be revamped or put
> > into the circular file.
>
> Music testing works 100% of the time if you test the right
> people and implement intelliently. What could possibly be
> wrong with asking listeners how much they do or do not want
> to hear a song on the radio?
>
> > I would love to hear what oldies
> > station doesnt play those hits. Give me a break.....
>
> I travel all over... and I can not think of any that do. If
> they do play them, it is in very light or platooned
> rotations.
>
> Lat time I heard it was in the company of several other
> programmers with lots of major market experience. We were
> waiting for a flight out of Jackson Hole, and the local
> oldies outlet spun "Indian" and the result was blank looks
> of disbelief followed by laughter.
>

I can believe a station in Jackson Hole playing them. Revere seems to be a Northwestern regional artist. I heard "Kicks", "Arizona", and "Reservation" fairly often on stations in Portland, Sacramento, and Reno when I lived in those cities, but I don't think I've ever heard his songs on any oldies stations here in the South. Of course, aside from "Louie, Louie", you don't hear much Northwestern garage rock at all on Southern stations.
 
Re: Regional differences.

>
> I can believe a station in Jackson Hole playing them.
> Revere seems to be a Northwestern regional artist. I heard
> "Kicks", "Arizona", and "Reservation" fairly often on
> stations in Portland, Sacramento, and Reno when I lived in
> those cities, but I don't think I've ever heard his songs on
> any oldies stations here in the South. Of course, aside
> from "Louie, Louie", you don't hear much Northwestern garage
> rock at all on Southern stations.

Regionalism is a good point to bring up. Thanks for adding that perspective. I try to stay out of the Northeast except for New York City, so I may miss actually hearing that sort of song.

I suppose I would have heard the Jaggerz and "The Rapper" were I to have continued listening... talking about garage bands. Obviously, the WY station was armed more with Whitburn and Billboard lists than with fundamental intelligence.

This is another reason for locally testing a library. There are significant regional differences in all but the mega hits. And some markets, like Atlanta, Phoenix, Orlando, Denver, Dallas, etc., are made up of more people who are not native to the region than actual long term residents.
>
 
So again, do we not ask our listenrers what they want to hear and just assume that we know better?<P ID="signature">______________
Did the Corinthians ever write back?</P>
 
I like the lyrics to Running Bear by Johnny Preston much more. The song is fun and a touch racist. Even better is Juanita Banana by The Peels, but that is about Mexicans, not Indians (yes I still say Indians.)

> This was a comment made in response to me--- it followed the
> name of the song "Indian Reservation". I'm trying to figure
> out if this is an accurate depiction of the lyrics to this
> song seen at this link:
> http://www.lyricsdepot.com/raiders/indian-reservation.html
>
> I don't think so, but I'd like your input since most of us
> are oldies fans.
> BTW, it would be REAL nice if the person who made this
> comment could refrain from commenting at least until we have
> a few posts of opinion :>)
> (I don't think he can...but maybe he'll shock me LOL!!)
>
<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P>
 
That is a good story, that I have not heard before. Indian Reservation was redone by Paul Revere and The Raiders. The original was released in 1968, but I forgot the name of the artist.

A political comment, I blame the poverty of Indians in this country on 100 years of Federal welfare. American Indians are the group who has received welfare longer than any other and the result is obvious.

Now back to the music.



> These are the true words of the song. The sub-title (I
> believe) was "the lament of the Cherokee". Read the story
> on how this song was produced and recorded. From what I
> recall from memory, in the late 1960's, Mark Lindsay's car
> broke down in the middle of the Cherokee Reservation and he
> was unable to get help for some time. If you've been
> stranded in the desert, like I have, you know what it can be
> like. Eventually, he DID get help from a helpful member of
> the tribe. But in the meantime, while he was getting his car
> fixed, he saw first-hand the less-than-acceptable conditions
> many members of the tribe had to live with. He promised
> that he would let the world know of the plight of the
> Cherokee Nation and other Native Americans have had to
> endure for centuries. He kept his promise and got a gold
> record with this song as well. It still plays on the radio
> today.
>
> > This was a comment made in response to me--- it followed
> the
> > name of the song "Indian Reservation". I'm trying to
> figure
> > out if this is an accurate depiction of the lyrics to this
>
> > song seen at this link:
> > http://www.lyricsdepot.com/raiders/indian-reservation.html
>
> >
> > I don't think so, but I'd like your input since most of us
>
> > are oldies fans.
> > BTW, it would be REAL nice if the person who made this
> > comment could refrain from commenting at least until we
> have
> > a few posts of opinion :>)
> > (I don't think he can...but maybe he'll shock me LOL!!)
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P>
 
Re: Stupid Statement.

Now I know why liberalism is a mental disorder. I wasn't going to respond to any of the posts until I read the person who responded to yours scolding your post as Paul Revere & The Raiders do not test well.
The Raiders were a very conservative clean band who's music stood up to any garage, underground, or psychedelic sound of it's day. Kick's, Good Thing, Hungry, still is played on today's oldies stations. And Indian Reservation is played on various AC stations today.
Unfortunately songs like "Let Me", "Mr. Sun Mr. Moon" are not on your average stations playlist due to chart positions compared to the following titles I mentioned before. But are just as good oldies songs compared to the testers and consultants narrowed minds. What was the problem , Mark's pony tail wasn't green enough. The band members were to handsome or good looking that you would recommend any one's sister to date? They didn't look like Smash Mouth or something? Probably why there not played on more genres as they should today.
There music was challenged by the other musicians lyrics when it mentioned drug innuendos, and other negative political situations. They didn't go that route, that's why their music air play declined in the 70's. They tried to stay positive, like on their TV show. That's why Paul Revere and his non- original Raiders still tour and sell out, not just for 60's guru's, but for families. There wasn't any racists lyrics in their songs like Indian Resevation. Arizona was not about the state, it was about an Indian Girl. Is that racists?
With satellite radio, those testing groups and consultants (who even test books at libriaries) will be over someday.







> > Thanks, Peter, great story!! Thankfully, I have never
> > experienced being stranded in the desert, though I have
> > experienced the desert (I'm in SoCal).
> >
> > What I wanted to know is why would someone say have a
> little
> > bigotry with your music meaning this song. It doesn't
> seem
> > to be coming from a bigotry POV, actually it decries
> > bigotry.
>
> It is reinforcing a stereotype, in many ways, right down to
> the tom toms in the music. It may have seemed liberal in the
> year it was written, but it does not play that way today.
>
> > PS, the poster who responded to me seems to think
> > its a horrible oldie for any station to play. :>) I don't
> > agree, tho' I like all Paul Revere/Mark Lindsey's songs
> > including Arizona.
>
> They don't test. They are more negative than positive. they
> drive listeners away.
>
 
Re: Sensitivity Training

> >
> > I can believe a station in Jackson Hole playing them.
> > Revere seems to be a Northwestern regional artist. I heard
>
> > "Kicks", "Arizona", and "Reservation" fairly often on
> > stations in Portland, Sacramento, and Reno when I lived in
>
> > those cities, but I don't think I've ever heard his songs
> on
> > any oldies stations here in the South. Of course, aside
> > from "Louie, Louie", you don't hear much Northwestern
> garage
> > rock at all on Southern stations.
>
> Regionalism is a good point to bring up. Thanks for adding
> that perspective. I try to stay out of the Northeast except
> for New York City, so I may miss actually hearing that sort
> of song.
>
> I suppose I would have heard the Jaggerz and "The Rapper"
> were I to have continued listening... talking about garage
> bands. Obviously, the WY station was armed more with
> Whitburn and Billboard lists than with fundamental
> intelligence.
>
> This is another reason for locally testing a library. There
> are significant regional differences in all but the mega
> hits. And some markets, like Atlanta, Phoenix, Orlando,
> Denver, Dallas, etc., are made up of more people who are not
> native to the region than actual long term residents.
> >
>


It's funny ...no one stated that any of today's Rap artist are bigots. Especially spewing their lyrics for what little talent they have. No mention at all on that.
Yes their was songs that had to be apologized for going back in the day when an artist named (example) Charlie Drake had My Boomerang Came Back. He had to change a lyric that had "Black In the face" where people thought it reflected to the aborgine people (hope I spelled it ) people in Australia. Then came Bill Dana who had the "Astronaut" that offended Mexican people using a fake spanish accent while being up in space. He apologized for that. Even though it was done in fun, not in hate.
Kinks "Well Respected Man", raised some eyebrows. He refered to "Fags" as cigars. Five Keys "Ling Ting Tong",....what???? all Chinese people eat egg fu yung. Great song, but hey everybody...let's all go on a Witch Hunt. We'll show all these artists what we want on are airwaves. It's starts on this post. C'mon name your favorite title that needs to be barred for what you would define bigotry. Ok next.........
 
Re: Making too much of an issue out of it.

>
>
> It's funny ...no one stated that any of today's Rap artist
> are bigots. Especially spewing their lyrics for what little
> talent they have. No mention at all on that.

It's equally funny that my quasi-sarcastic comment about a song no one should be playing at all because, today, it is a stiff, is getting this much traffic.

When I made the remark, which a poster took out of the context, I was engaging in hyperbole on the racist part. The song is a stiff, and is out of bounds today on content. I also used Ballad of the Green Berets as an example... a song whose lyrics and patent militarism just don't fit today's world.

I could have said the same for Nel Blu Di Pinto Di Blu, Crazy Organ, Eve of Destruction, or even late 60's drug and flower power culture songs like White Rabbit. Just out of time, out of place. Or how about Gordon Sinclair's The Americans? René & René Lo Mucho Que Te Quiero? Lolita and Seaman?

A lot of so-called oldies hits were not hits at the time. The charts were way to biased, inaccurate and influencable. And most songs from that era are not hits today, as listeners have moved on from all but a percentage of 60's music.
 
Re: Yes, definitely it was.

> Unfortunately songs like "Let Me", "Mr. Sun Mr. Moon" are
> not on your average stations playlist due to chart positions
> compared to the following titles I mentioned before. But are
> just as good oldies songs compared to the testers and
> consultants narrowed minds.

I have the idea you do not understand programming or research.

1. Consultants do not pick the music the listeners do. Consusltants help station management to implement research, image the station, plan promotions, train and find talent.

2. Testers are a random selection of users of a station or users of the station format. Generally, the reflect the composition of the station or the desired ocmposition except that they exclude light users (who represent minimum potential). "Testers" are listeners pure and simpl.

> What was the problem , Mark's
> pony tail wasn't green enough. The band members were to
> handsome or good looking that you would recommend any one's
> sister to date? They didn't look like Smash Mouth or
> something? Probably why there not played on more genres as
> they should today.

Simple answer in two parts. Some of yesterdays' songs are not liked today... they were hits but are not any more. Second part: the songs, for whatever reason, do not test high meaning that most listeners do not want to hear them and many would change station if they heard them.

> There music was challenged by the other musicians lyrics
> when it mentioned drug innuendos, and other negative
> political situations. They didn't go that route, that's why
> their music air play declined in the 70's. They tried to
> stay positive, like on their TV show. That's why Paul Revere
> and his non- original Raiders still tour and sell out, not
> just for 60's guru's, but for families. There wasn't any
> racists lyrics in their songs like Indian Resevation.
> Arizona was not about the state, it was about an Indian
> Girl. Is that racists?

All this is about the 60's. We are not programming in the 60's. We are programming today. About 75% of 60's songs are unappealing today to the bulk of people with any interest in oldies.

AC stations have no business playing this stuff, anyway.

> With satellite radio, those testing groups and consultants
> (who even test books at libriaries) will be over someday.

Actually, satellite uses the same techniques. No difference. It is all about asking listeners what they want to hear. Paul revere is not among most folks choices.
 
Re: Stupid Statement.

Good point. The way you correctly described them, it sounds like they should have switched to country and followed Glen Campbell, Bobby Goldsboro and others who were "straight shooters." Perhaps rock and roll audiences did not appreciate that kind of clean reputation in the seventies.


> Now I know why liberalism is a mental disorder. I wasn't
> going to respond to any of the posts until I read the person
> who responded to yours scolding your post as Paul Revere &
> The Raiders do not test well.
> The Raiders were a very conservative clean band who's music
> stood up to any garage, underground, or psychedelic sound of
> it's day. Kick's, Good Thing, Hungry, still is played on
> today's oldies stations. And Indian Reservation is played on
> various AC stations today.
> Unfortunately songs like "Let Me", "Mr. Sun Mr. Moon" are
> not on your average stations playlist due to chart positions
> compared to the following titles I mentioned before. But are
> just as good oldies songs compared to the testers and
> consultants narrowed minds. What was the problem , Mark's
> pony tail wasn't green enough. The band members were to
> handsome or good looking that you would recommend any one's
> sister to date? They didn't look like Smash Mouth or
> something? Probably why there not played on more genres as
> they should today.
> There music was challenged by the other musicians lyrics
> when it mentioned drug innuendos, and other negative
> political situations. They didn't go that route, that's why
> their music air play declined in the 70's. They tried to
> stay positive, like on their TV show. That's why Paul Revere
> and his non- original Raiders still tour and sell out, not
> just for 60's guru's, but for families. There wasn't any
> racists lyrics in their songs like Indian Resevation.
> Arizona was not about the state, it was about an Indian
> Girl. Is that racists?
> With satellite radio, those testing groups and consultants
> (who even test books at libriaries) will be over someday.
>
>
>
>
>
> <P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P>
 
Re: Sensitivity Training

Rap artists are "off the chart." In another league and on a different planet. No one even considers them seriously.

F-a-g is a British word for cigarette. Remember Van Morrison in Blue Money? He mentioned, "smoke a f-a-g.

F-a-g-g-a-t is a British expression for Meatball. (Such as with spaghetti).

I heard that the Black in the face line was changed for North American copies of the song. I have heard the song on an aircheck from 2KY in Sydney and the original "Black" line is there as well as on European copies. I think it was out of respect for African-American feelings in the USA that it was changed to "Blue."

As for Ling Ting Tong, a skit called Chinese Rock And Eggroll by Buddy Hackett in 1956 is much worse than Ling, Ting, Tong. And what about Japanese Sandman? That doo wop song is pretty much a stereotype. But we fought a war with Japan in the previous decade, so I guess it was all right.



> It's funny ...no one stated that any of today's Rap artist
> are bigots. Especially spewing their lyrics for what little
> talent they have. No mention at all on that.
> Yes their was songs that had to be apologized for going back
> in the day when an artist named (example) Charlie Drake had
> My Boomerang Came Back. He had to change a lyric that had
> "Black In the face" where people thought it reflected to the
> aborgine people (hope I spelled it ) people in Australia.
> Then came Bill Dana who had the "Astronaut" that offended
> Mexican people using a fake spanish accent while being up in
> space. He apologized for that. Even though it was done in
> fun, not in hate.
> Kinks "Well Respected Man", raised some eyebrows. He refered
> to "Fags" as cigars. Five Keys "Ling Ting
> Tong",....what???? all Chinese people eat egg fu yung. Great
> song, but hey everybody...let's all go on a Witch Hunt.
> We'll show all these artists what we want on are airwaves.
> It's starts on this post. C'mon name your favorite title
> that needs to be barred for what you would define bigotry.
> Ok next.........
>
<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by peppertree5706 on 08/13/05 07:07 PM.</FONT></P>
 
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