We have a translator network here, where one translator feeds from another, 100.7 on Montesano Mountain feeds from 98.1 on Capshaw Mountain, and 94.7 feeds from 100.7. Sometimes, WTXT 98.1 in Tuscaloosa will make it's way up here and overpower the 98.1 translator, thus WTXT will be heard on 100.7 and 94.7 until the DX dies down. I've seen it do this for days at a time a few times. Those are the best kind of catches, it's like having your very own antenna high up on a tower.
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Have you ever heard DX over a translator?
- Thread starter TheDingo
- Start date
I have two instances of such "translator DX".
A couple of years ago, it may have been during the super July 6, 2004 opening, I was hearing "Max-99.1" on 94.1. Well, 94.1 is a translator in Newburgh, NY (about 19 miles away) that normally relays WAWZ-99.1 out of New Jersey. I guess Max overrode WAWZ. Max would be WYMX in Greenwood, MS, which I have NOT heard on its normal 99.1 frequency.
Another case, involved a translator on 89.1 in Pawling, NY, about 18 miles from here. This translator is part of this region's "Sound of Life" religious network, and I presume picks up their signal over the air from WFGB-89.7 in Kingston. One night, I think last summer, WFGB was off the air. Tuning to 89.1 I heard WPKN-89.5 out of Bridgeport, CT. Apparently, the Pawling translator was picking up this adjacent channel WPKN signal and rebroadcasting it. Interestingly, at my DX location, I was actually picking up WGBH-Boston on 89.7.... I don't know why the translator didn't pick up WGBH, except perhaps the translator's receiving antenna nulled WGBH out being off to the side, while WPKN off the rear of the antenna wasn't nulled as much. WPKN is received on a regular basis here in Poughkeepsie.
I'm surprised I don't hear more of this "translator DX". I would expect WQXR-96.3 which is carried on our local 103.7 translator to be overriden during e-skip, but it never is. WQXR (6000 watts on the empire state building) is a good 65 miles from the translator.
A couple of years ago, it may have been during the super July 6, 2004 opening, I was hearing "Max-99.1" on 94.1. Well, 94.1 is a translator in Newburgh, NY (about 19 miles away) that normally relays WAWZ-99.1 out of New Jersey. I guess Max overrode WAWZ. Max would be WYMX in Greenwood, MS, which I have NOT heard on its normal 99.1 frequency.
Another case, involved a translator on 89.1 in Pawling, NY, about 18 miles from here. This translator is part of this region's "Sound of Life" religious network, and I presume picks up their signal over the air from WFGB-89.7 in Kingston. One night, I think last summer, WFGB was off the air. Tuning to 89.1 I heard WPKN-89.5 out of Bridgeport, CT. Apparently, the Pawling translator was picking up this adjacent channel WPKN signal and rebroadcasting it. Interestingly, at my DX location, I was actually picking up WGBH-Boston on 89.7.... I don't know why the translator didn't pick up WGBH, except perhaps the translator's receiving antenna nulled WGBH out being off to the side, while WPKN off the rear of the antenna wasn't nulled as much. WPKN is received on a regular basis here in Poughkeepsie.
I'm surprised I don't hear more of this "translator DX". I would expect WQXR-96.3 which is carried on our local 103.7 translator to be overriden during e-skip, but it never is. WQXR (6000 watts on the empire state building) is a good 65 miles from the translator.
Hi
I've done it here in Australia. I was picking up the 4MKY/t at Burton Coal Mine on 89.1 Mhz via E-Skip. This translator relays 4MKY (Hot-FM) off 100.3 in Mackay QLD.
One day I heard an ID for "Nova 100" from Melbourne VIC. Apparently the skip was so strong from Melbourne into QLD, Nova 100 (100.3) overode 4MKY 100.3 & was being realyed by this translator on 89.1.
Kinda like getting E-Skip via E-skip!
dxer2_2000
I've done it here in Australia. I was picking up the 4MKY/t at Burton Coal Mine on 89.1 Mhz via E-Skip. This translator relays 4MKY (Hot-FM) off 100.3 in Mackay QLD.
One day I heard an ID for "Nova 100" from Melbourne VIC. Apparently the skip was so strong from Melbourne into QLD, Nova 100 (100.3) overode 4MKY 100.3 & was being realyed by this translator on 89.1.
Kinda like getting E-Skip via E-skip!
dxer2_2000
Well not so much a translator, but I've heard it on a simulcast:
Back in the late '90s, WGUL-FM New Port Richey, FL (105.5 FM) used to simulcast on WGUL 860 AM Clearwater, FL by simply receiving the FM signal and sending it out. Well one day for some reason the FM went out and 860 AM was suddenly re-broadcasting WYKS (Kiss 105.5) from Gainesville-Ocala (yes WYKS was on 105.5 in those days.) I'm sure it was a shock to those senior-citizens expecting to hear big band only to find CHR on 860 on their AM dials.
-Rich
Back in the late '90s, WGUL-FM New Port Richey, FL (105.5 FM) used to simulcast on WGUL 860 AM Clearwater, FL by simply receiving the FM signal and sending it out. Well one day for some reason the FM went out and 860 AM was suddenly re-broadcasting WYKS (Kiss 105.5) from Gainesville-Ocala (yes WYKS was on 105.5 in those days.) I'm sure it was a shock to those senior-citizens expecting to hear big band only to find CHR on 860 on their AM dials.
-Rich
Yes, I have.
We have a translator on 101.1 in Coldwater, MI that simulcasts the broadcast of WFRN 104.7 in Elkhart, IN. In some very rare occasions, WFRN's religious programming would be missing from 101.1. Instead of preaching and inspo music, I heard WIOT 104.7 from Toledo.
I'm sure the WFRN fans were pretty shocked to hear Bob and Tom instead of Dr. James Dobson!
We have a translator on 101.1 in Coldwater, MI that simulcasts the broadcast of WFRN 104.7 in Elkhart, IN. In some very rare occasions, WFRN's religious programming would be missing from 101.1. Instead of preaching and inspo music, I heard WIOT 104.7 from Toledo.
I'm sure the WFRN fans were pretty shocked to hear Bob and Tom instead of Dr. James Dobson!
It must have been Satan himself that foisted Bob and Tom instead of the Word of God on the hapless population!
I haven't experienced translator DX as such, but our combo of 95.3 (Xenia, OH) and 95.7 (Piqua, OH) once sinulcast by having a recieving antenna pick up 95.7 off the air, and relay it by microwave to the 95.3 transmitter. Occasionally 95.7 would go off leaving 95.3 relaying other 95.7's,...a whole Sunday morning while tower work was going on I was DXing a 95.7 near Toledo.
I haven't experienced translator DX as such, but our combo of 95.3 (Xenia, OH) and 95.7 (Piqua, OH) once sinulcast by having a recieving antenna pick up 95.7 off the air, and relay it by microwave to the 95.3 transmitter. Occasionally 95.7 would go off leaving 95.3 relaying other 95.7's,...a whole Sunday morning while tower work was going on I was DXing a 95.7 near Toledo.
An example from the Houston area-
A few years back, Christian music station KSBJ 89.3 FM, licensed to Humble (a community to the north of Houston) used to have a translator in Galveston on 97.3 FM. During various periods of DX reception, I have tuned to 97.3 and heard KNON out of Dallas and WRKF out of Baton Rouge, both of which are on 89.3.
Not quite the same thing, but in the case of simulcasting stations and DX reception-
Back in, I think it was sometime in late 2000 or early 2001, KTJM 98.5 (which at the time was Jammin' Oldies) simulcast its signal on 103.3 FM, 880 AM, and 1230 AM. One morning, 98.5 was off the air, and on 1230 AM I heard urban KBBT (98.5 The Beat) out of San Antonio (although it was barely intelligible.) 103.3 and 880 were still on the air with regular KTJM programming, so I guess 1230 was the only station in the group to pull KTJM's main FM signal off air.
A few years back, Christian music station KSBJ 89.3 FM, licensed to Humble (a community to the north of Houston) used to have a translator in Galveston on 97.3 FM. During various periods of DX reception, I have tuned to 97.3 and heard KNON out of Dallas and WRKF out of Baton Rouge, both of which are on 89.3.
Not quite the same thing, but in the case of simulcasting stations and DX reception-
Back in, I think it was sometime in late 2000 or early 2001, KTJM 98.5 (which at the time was Jammin' Oldies) simulcast its signal on 103.3 FM, 880 AM, and 1230 AM. One morning, 98.5 was off the air, and on 1230 AM I heard urban KBBT (98.5 The Beat) out of San Antonio (although it was barely intelligible.) 103.3 and 880 were still on the air with regular KTJM programming, so I guess 1230 was the only station in the group to pull KTJM's main FM signal off air.
I hope this isn't too far off-topic, but it seemed relevant to me. 
In Tyler, Texas, in the mid-80s, the cable system carried ABC affiliates from Tyler, Dallas and Shreveport. They picked up KTBS/3 in Shreveport off the air and put it on cable 7. On several occasions, the signal faded, and we were watching WLBT/3 (NBC) from Jackson, Mississippi on cable 7.
Now that I've found this threat, I think I've found a new hobby.
In Tyler, Texas, in the mid-80s, the cable system carried ABC affiliates from Tyler, Dallas and Shreveport. They picked up KTBS/3 in Shreveport off the air and put it on cable 7. On several occasions, the signal faded, and we were watching WLBT/3 (NBC) from Jackson, Mississippi on cable 7.
Now that I've found this threat, I think I've found a new hobby.
Jras -- I share your concern. Unfortunately, the current FCC spacing standards don't account for the interests of DX hobbyists (or, indeed, for the needs of rural residents who might depend on moderate- to deep-fringe reception of certain signals.)
The FCC will license a new signal on a given frequency as long as the new signal's 40 dBu "interfering contour" (around 35 dBu actual strength) doesn't touch the existing signal's 60 dBu service area. Sounds OK in theory... 25 dB may sound like a lot of headroom. However, in practice, it's not. FM receivers exhibit the "capture effect" of selecting the strongest signal on a given frequency, rejecting the weaker one entirely... but this effect requires a difference of around 4 or 5 dB in order to provide a completely steady signal as you drive along (or move the antenna in your house.) This, of course, occurs on both sides of the "equal" point... the result being that anytime one puts a new station on an occupied frequency, there will be a slice of the map where the frequency sounds like useless alternating crap.
Depending on just how close the new transmitter is to the 60-service of the existing station, this crescent could run through portions of the existing signal's 47 dBu or 50 dBu or even, in some extreme cases, 55 dBu service area. This is partially because a low-powered signal (such as a translator) "drops off" so quickly as you move away from it. Working this in reverse, as you move closer to the low-powered signal, its strength INcreases a lot more quickly than the other station's strength DEcreases. As a result, the impacted area of the existing station's coverage occurs closer to the existing station's 60-service than one might otherwise expect.
There's a particularly egregious example of the above going on in my home market as we speak -- Clear Channel has applied for a supposed "fill-in" translator, here in oh-so-mountainous Minnesota, for 100.3 KTLK. Problem is... this translator will be located in an eastern suburb which KTLK serves with a signal of over 75 dBu. It also just happens to be located right on 96.3, the frequency of KTTB (B96)... a west metro rimshot Urban, with some signal problems in the eastern suburbs, that competes with Clear Channel's KDWB. CC's engineers chose a site that sits right ON B96's 58 dBu, then -- in order to clear spacing requirements -- made the translator so directional that its coverage basically looks like a giant pickle pointing southeast. (The back of its pattern clears its spacing requirement by around 150 feet.)
Anyway, in summary, a 48 or 50 dBu signal might not sound like much these days, since they aren't making receivers like they used to -- some Walkman receivers and clock radios have trouble even with signals in the low 60s. But it's really not that difficult to catch in a car, or even with a decent home receiver and a simple wire... and as mentioned before, some people in rural areas prefer or even depend on certain stations whose signals are somewhat "fringe"... so I, for one, think the FCC ought to reconsider its spacing guidelines.
The FCC will license a new signal on a given frequency as long as the new signal's 40 dBu "interfering contour" (around 35 dBu actual strength) doesn't touch the existing signal's 60 dBu service area. Sounds OK in theory... 25 dB may sound like a lot of headroom. However, in practice, it's not. FM receivers exhibit the "capture effect" of selecting the strongest signal on a given frequency, rejecting the weaker one entirely... but this effect requires a difference of around 4 or 5 dB in order to provide a completely steady signal as you drive along (or move the antenna in your house.) This, of course, occurs on both sides of the "equal" point... the result being that anytime one puts a new station on an occupied frequency, there will be a slice of the map where the frequency sounds like useless alternating crap.
Depending on just how close the new transmitter is to the 60-service of the existing station, this crescent could run through portions of the existing signal's 47 dBu or 50 dBu or even, in some extreme cases, 55 dBu service area. This is partially because a low-powered signal (such as a translator) "drops off" so quickly as you move away from it. Working this in reverse, as you move closer to the low-powered signal, its strength INcreases a lot more quickly than the other station's strength DEcreases. As a result, the impacted area of the existing station's coverage occurs closer to the existing station's 60-service than one might otherwise expect.
There's a particularly egregious example of the above going on in my home market as we speak -- Clear Channel has applied for a supposed "fill-in" translator, here in oh-so-mountainous Minnesota, for 100.3 KTLK. Problem is... this translator will be located in an eastern suburb which KTLK serves with a signal of over 75 dBu. It also just happens to be located right on 96.3, the frequency of KTTB (B96)... a west metro rimshot Urban, with some signal problems in the eastern suburbs, that competes with Clear Channel's KDWB. CC's engineers chose a site that sits right ON B96's 58 dBu, then -- in order to clear spacing requirements -- made the translator so directional that its coverage basically looks like a giant pickle pointing southeast. (The back of its pattern clears its spacing requirement by around 150 feet.)
Anyway, in summary, a 48 or 50 dBu signal might not sound like much these days, since they aren't making receivers like they used to -- some Walkman receivers and clock radios have trouble even with signals in the low 60s. But it's really not that difficult to catch in a car, or even with a decent home receiver and a simple wire... and as mentioned before, some people in rural areas prefer or even depend on certain stations whose signals are somewhat "fringe"... so I, for one, think the FCC ought to reconsider its spacing guidelines.
And as long as we're talking about DX on translators...
...I realize this is totally out of left field, and such an unlikely situation that it's never been heard before... but what would happen if translators started feeding each other in a "feedback" loop? Let's say you have originating station WXXX on 103.9 at point X, that feeds 95.7 to its south, which then feeds 101.7 to ITS east, which in turn feeds W280ZZ 103.9 to ITS northeast. If, due to tropo, 95.7 starts picking up W280ZZ instead of WXXX... what would happen to 95.7 and everything down from it?
Based on what happens with microphones, I'm guessing the modulation would rise infinitely upward until the transmitters went out of frequency lock and shut themselves down... but I don't know for sure... anyone?
...I realize this is totally out of left field, and such an unlikely situation that it's never been heard before... but what would happen if translators started feeding each other in a "feedback" loop? Let's say you have originating station WXXX on 103.9 at point X, that feeds 95.7 to its south, which then feeds 101.7 to ITS east, which in turn feeds W280ZZ 103.9 to ITS northeast. If, due to tropo, 95.7 starts picking up W280ZZ instead of WXXX... what would happen to 95.7 and everything down from it?
Based on what happens with microphones, I'm guessing the modulation would rise infinitely upward until the transmitters went out of frequency lock and shut themselves down... but I don't know for sure... anyone?
- Status