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HD 8 Second Delay Issue...Any Solutions?
- Thread starter tk
- Start date
L
Les
Guest
> I'm sure it's been brought up before...but here it goes. HD
> radio is causing stations to have an 8 second delay.
> Announcers have to monitor the programming feed instead of
> on air. Any way around this problem?
Soon. Intel and MicroSoft are working on an anticipator chip.
When cascaded, they are tantamount to a negative-going delay
line. Based on context, it can figure out what is going to be
said and output it to the announcer's 'phones. It's really
neat in that it will be used after the audio output of the
modulation monitor and, upon loss of on-air audio, will
immediately retract everything it has already said. So far
the major obstacle is the random "slip of the tongue" where
the announcer accidentally says something that could not have
been anticipated by the logic circuits. For that reason, the
chips have no application in profanity-prevention devices, for
example.
Actually the device has no real application since most stations
are voice tracked and there is nobody on staff listening.
> radio is causing stations to have an 8 second delay.
> Announcers have to monitor the programming feed instead of
> on air. Any way around this problem?
Soon. Intel and MicroSoft are working on an anticipator chip.
When cascaded, they are tantamount to a negative-going delay
line. Based on context, it can figure out what is going to be
said and output it to the announcer's 'phones. It's really
neat in that it will be used after the audio output of the
modulation monitor and, upon loss of on-air audio, will
immediately retract everything it has already said. So far
the major obstacle is the random "slip of the tongue" where
the announcer accidentally says something that could not have
been anticipated by the logic circuits. For that reason, the
chips have no application in profanity-prevention devices, for
example.
Actually the device has no real application since most stations
are voice tracked and there is nobody on staff listening.
T
THEInsultant
Guest
> No.
>
Hahahaha!
Yes.. That's a real problem with the "HD" radio thing. No off-air monitoring for talent. Here's my take on how we're going to have to deal with this new problem. First, old 8100s, etc. go to the studio so they can be used to process the audio for the talent's headphones and monitors. If the station has a 8200, 8400 or 8500, etc. and the processor is at the studio-end, then there is an audio-out on those units that can be sent to the studio for monitoring before the delay. Ok.. The next problem is remotes. Take the pre-delay feed that you're sending into the studio and just feed it to a analog 67KHz SCA encoder. You can even interupt it with a talkback or if you're lucky enough to have a "Studio Monitor" module with fold-back, just send the headphones for that "room" to the SCA and TB works super! Then, go buy some of those, good, cheap SCA battery-op radios from radiosca.com . Have the talent listen to them for off-air cues. From what I've read the analog SCA @ 67 is still useful and gets not a whole lot of interference from the digital crap.
Here's something though I see for us in the future with the general public. How is sporting events going to work when we're 8 seconds behind (plus any sat-hops of 2 sec or so) for those that are used to taking a radio to "the game"? Isn't that going to suck? He's at the 30, 20, 10, touchdown! Oh hell.. he's already there and this guy on the radio is still babbling about if he is gonna make it or not!
<P ID="signature">______________
--- THE Insultant ---</P>
>
Hahahaha!
Yes.. That's a real problem with the "HD" radio thing. No off-air monitoring for talent. Here's my take on how we're going to have to deal with this new problem. First, old 8100s, etc. go to the studio so they can be used to process the audio for the talent's headphones and monitors. If the station has a 8200, 8400 or 8500, etc. and the processor is at the studio-end, then there is an audio-out on those units that can be sent to the studio for monitoring before the delay. Ok.. The next problem is remotes. Take the pre-delay feed that you're sending into the studio and just feed it to a analog 67KHz SCA encoder. You can even interupt it with a talkback or if you're lucky enough to have a "Studio Monitor" module with fold-back, just send the headphones for that "room" to the SCA and TB works super! Then, go buy some of those, good, cheap SCA battery-op radios from radiosca.com . Have the talent listen to them for off-air cues. From what I've read the analog SCA @ 67 is still useful and gets not a whole lot of interference from the digital crap.
Here's something though I see for us in the future with the general public. How is sporting events going to work when we're 8 seconds behind (plus any sat-hops of 2 sec or so) for those that are used to taking a radio to "the game"? Isn't that going to suck? He's at the 30, 20, 10, touchdown! Oh hell.. he's already there and this guy on the radio is still babbling about if he is gonna make it or not!
<P ID="signature">______________
--- THE Insultant ---</P>
J
JasonW
Guest
> I'm sure it's been brought up before...but here it goes. HD
> radio is causing stations to have an 8 second delay.
> Announcers have to monitor the programming feed instead of
> on air. Any way around this problem?
Dump the HD
> radio is causing stations to have an 8 second delay.
> Announcers have to monitor the programming feed instead of
> on air. Any way around this problem?
Dump the HD
C
CW
Guest
> Yes.. That's a real problem with the "HD" radio thing. No
> off-air monitoring for talent. Here's my take on how we're
> going to have to deal with this new problem. First, old
> 8100s, etc. go to the studio so they can be used to process
> the audio for the talent's headphones and monitors. If the
> station has a 8200, 8400 or 8500, etc. and the processor is
> at the studio-end, then there is an audio-out on those units
> that can be sent to the studio for monitoring before the
> delay. Ok..
Not possible....the audio that hits the IBOC encoder should be virgin and 44.1 kHz...NOT run through any processing....the 8x00 processor for the analog will HAVE to be at the xmtr site...for rimshots that can be 65 miles from the studio!
They will HAVE to have a 8100 or similar for the local....at ABC Radio in Dallas, they tried using Orban 424s and similar for simulated air...they just DONT match up to a real on air processor like the 8x00 series....
The next problem is remotes. Take the
> pre-delay feed that you're sending into the studio and just
> feed it to a analog 67KHz SCA encoder. You can even
> interupt it with a talkback or if you're lucky enough to
> have a "Studio Monitor" module with fold-back, just send the
> headphones for that "room" to the SCA and TB works super!
> Then, go buy some of those, good, cheap SCA battery-op
> radios from radiosca.com . Have the talent listen to them
> for off-air cues. From what I've read the analog SCA @ 67
> is still useful and gets not a whole lot of interference
> from the digital crap.
Lets see the jock at the remote will quit talking but his voice will still be on the air for 8 secs! Now if the rmt is distant (aka: out of town) we know ISDN ,etc already adds delay and its acceptable.....but at a LOCAL (mall, etc) rmt? This will prove to be the undoing.....hell, I hated running Comrex or ISDN on a local rmt if I could avoid it....give me a Marti or dry line anyday for that!
> Here's something though I see for us in the future with the
> general public. How is sporting events going to work when
> we're 8 seconds behind (plus any sat-hops of 2 sec or so)
> for those that are used to taking a radio to "the game"?
> Isn't that going to suck? He's at the 30, 20, 10,
> touchdown! Oh hell.. he's already there and this guy on the
> radio is still babbling about if he is gonna make it or not!
How true and sad....some of the HD AMs already dump their IBOC when running a live sports game so the delay is out of the circuit.....DUH! (who didnt think ahead?
> off-air monitoring for talent. Here's my take on how we're
> going to have to deal with this new problem. First, old
> 8100s, etc. go to the studio so they can be used to process
> the audio for the talent's headphones and monitors. If the
> station has a 8200, 8400 or 8500, etc. and the processor is
> at the studio-end, then there is an audio-out on those units
> that can be sent to the studio for monitoring before the
> delay. Ok..
Not possible....the audio that hits the IBOC encoder should be virgin and 44.1 kHz...NOT run through any processing....the 8x00 processor for the analog will HAVE to be at the xmtr site...for rimshots that can be 65 miles from the studio!
They will HAVE to have a 8100 or similar for the local....at ABC Radio in Dallas, they tried using Orban 424s and similar for simulated air...they just DONT match up to a real on air processor like the 8x00 series....
The next problem is remotes. Take the
> pre-delay feed that you're sending into the studio and just
> feed it to a analog 67KHz SCA encoder. You can even
> interupt it with a talkback or if you're lucky enough to
> have a "Studio Monitor" module with fold-back, just send the
> headphones for that "room" to the SCA and TB works super!
> Then, go buy some of those, good, cheap SCA battery-op
> radios from radiosca.com . Have the talent listen to them
> for off-air cues. From what I've read the analog SCA @ 67
> is still useful and gets not a whole lot of interference
> from the digital crap.
Lets see the jock at the remote will quit talking but his voice will still be on the air for 8 secs! Now if the rmt is distant (aka: out of town) we know ISDN ,etc already adds delay and its acceptable.....but at a LOCAL (mall, etc) rmt? This will prove to be the undoing.....hell, I hated running Comrex or ISDN on a local rmt if I could avoid it....give me a Marti or dry line anyday for that!
> Here's something though I see for us in the future with the
> general public. How is sporting events going to work when
> we're 8 seconds behind (plus any sat-hops of 2 sec or so)
> for those that are used to taking a radio to "the game"?
> Isn't that going to suck? He's at the 30, 20, 10,
> touchdown! Oh hell.. he's already there and this guy on the
> radio is still babbling about if he is gonna make it or not!
How true and sad....some of the HD AMs already dump their IBOC when running a live sports game so the delay is out of the circuit.....DUH! (who didnt think ahead?
L
Les
Guest
But seriously...
There never will be a "real" solution. Time (as we understand it these
days) moves only in one direction. The most serious culprits are the
Analog to Digital (A to D) and Digital to Analog (D to A) translations
The duration of each is dependent on the chip set used and the particular
manufacturer's algorithm. There HAS been progress; more will come but
the time factor will never become zero.
The number of translations can be small or staggering; depends on many
factors. Consider a live voice. Analog. Put it through a microphone and
it remains analog until it hits a converter. Board or mixer: Analog
or digital? Are all the devices feeding it digital? If not, more
conversions. If everything is digital, back to the microphone. Does
the board do the A to D for it? Some outboard device? If the board
is analog feeding digital processing, there's A to D. And then the
digital STL or fiber optics system. Still using an analog STL? More conversions! And at the transmitter site it goes on and on according
to what has been assembled as a system.
But wait! There's more! So you transmit a nice digital IBOC signal.
And what does the receiver do? Converts it to analog because the human
hearing system is analog.
That there's presently an approximately 8-second delay is not remarkable.
What IS remarkable is that it takes so LITTLE time.
Pardon if the above is imprecise; it's extrapolated from years of work
with digital television where all this stuff surfaced long before anybody
thought much about it for radio. In TV you've got the added problem of
A to D and D to A for audio taking less time than for video, so artificial
delay has be added to try (and usually fail) to achieve lip-sync. Wasn't
the lip-flap of most networks London Underground coverage maddening?
There never will be a "real" solution. Time (as we understand it these
days) moves only in one direction. The most serious culprits are the
Analog to Digital (A to D) and Digital to Analog (D to A) translations
The duration of each is dependent on the chip set used and the particular
manufacturer's algorithm. There HAS been progress; more will come but
the time factor will never become zero.
The number of translations can be small or staggering; depends on many
factors. Consider a live voice. Analog. Put it through a microphone and
it remains analog until it hits a converter. Board or mixer: Analog
or digital? Are all the devices feeding it digital? If not, more
conversions. If everything is digital, back to the microphone. Does
the board do the A to D for it? Some outboard device? If the board
is analog feeding digital processing, there's A to D. And then the
digital STL or fiber optics system. Still using an analog STL? More conversions! And at the transmitter site it goes on and on according
to what has been assembled as a system.
But wait! There's more! So you transmit a nice digital IBOC signal.
And what does the receiver do? Converts it to analog because the human
hearing system is analog.
That there's presently an approximately 8-second delay is not remarkable.
What IS remarkable is that it takes so LITTLE time.
Pardon if the above is imprecise; it's extrapolated from years of work
with digital television where all this stuff surfaced long before anybody
thought much about it for radio. In TV you've got the added problem of
A to D and D to A for audio taking less time than for video, so artificial
delay has be added to try (and usually fail) to achieve lip-sync. Wasn't
the lip-flap of most networks London Underground coverage maddening?
A
Andy_Brown
Guest
Exactly
> There never will be a "real" solution. Time (as we
> understand it these
> days) moves only in one direction. The most serious
> culprits are the
> Analog to Digital (A to D) and Digital to Analog (D to A)
> translations
No matter how fast it occurs, sampling, quantizing and encoding
a signal takes time. And the more times you go back and forth between
analog and digital, as you state, just adds more "time" to the delay.
Digital signals are nothing new. They've been studied and analyzed for
probably 50+ years. I'm surprised people think that there could be a way
to eliminate it. There isn't. But don't tell the guys in marketing, because I'm sure they'll invent a circuit that can do it.
>In TV you've got the added
> problem of A to D and D to A for audio taking less time than for video,
> so artificial delay has be added to try (and usually fail) to achieve
> lip-sync. Wasn't the lip-flap of most networks London Underground coverage
> maddening?
TV signals have always presented timing issues, especially sync pulse and chroma phase, if the various pieces of the signal are separated for individual processing, putting them back together out of time can lead to anomalies too numerous to mention as I'm sure you know.
Interestingly enough, the TV industry first had quite an issue with analog satellite delay of program audio and video, and different delay times for IFB feeds that took different routes than the program feed. Multi hop satellite feeds drove unschooled directors crazy.
I don't understand why this is such a big deal, now that radio is mostly automated. Since jocks aren't operators anymore, they can hear themself in real time in the control room, and feed an off air monitor into the shop and around the station.
As far as remotes and telephone call ins, etc., work the delay to your advantage. If the jock stays in real time with the sources being employed, so what if the remote is ISDN delayed? It's not on the air yet, so what's the big deal?
Talent hates to make adjustments from what they are used to. And they can't bitch up to the producer, so they rattle engineering's chains. What a crock.
I don't miss it. <P ID="signature">______________
Electricity is really just organized lightning.
~George Carlin</P>
> There never will be a "real" solution. Time (as we
> understand it these
> days) moves only in one direction. The most serious
> culprits are the
> Analog to Digital (A to D) and Digital to Analog (D to A)
> translations
No matter how fast it occurs, sampling, quantizing and encoding
a signal takes time. And the more times you go back and forth between
analog and digital, as you state, just adds more "time" to the delay.
Digital signals are nothing new. They've been studied and analyzed for
probably 50+ years. I'm surprised people think that there could be a way
to eliminate it. There isn't. But don't tell the guys in marketing, because I'm sure they'll invent a circuit that can do it.
>In TV you've got the added
> problem of A to D and D to A for audio taking less time than for video,
> so artificial delay has be added to try (and usually fail) to achieve
> lip-sync. Wasn't the lip-flap of most networks London Underground coverage
> maddening?
TV signals have always presented timing issues, especially sync pulse and chroma phase, if the various pieces of the signal are separated for individual processing, putting them back together out of time can lead to anomalies too numerous to mention as I'm sure you know.
Interestingly enough, the TV industry first had quite an issue with analog satellite delay of program audio and video, and different delay times for IFB feeds that took different routes than the program feed. Multi hop satellite feeds drove unschooled directors crazy.
I don't understand why this is such a big deal, now that radio is mostly automated. Since jocks aren't operators anymore, they can hear themself in real time in the control room, and feed an off air monitor into the shop and around the station.
As far as remotes and telephone call ins, etc., work the delay to your advantage. If the jock stays in real time with the sources being employed, so what if the remote is ISDN delayed? It's not on the air yet, so what's the big deal?
Talent hates to make adjustments from what they are used to. And they can't bitch up to the producer, so they rattle engineering's chains. What a crock.
I don't miss it. <P ID="signature">______________
Electricity is really just organized lightning.
~George Carlin</P>
L
Les
Guest
Re: Exactly
> Interestingly enough, the TV industry first had quite an
> issue with analog satellite delay of program audio and
> video, and different delay times for IFB feeds that took
> different routes than the program feed. Multi hop satellite
> feeds drove unschooled directors crazy.
It long pre-dated satellites. Cross-country microwave feeds
were hell. Even in monochrome, everything running on it's own
time base. Anchormen (no anchor-babes back then) would say
something like: "We go now live to Los Angeles and....".
then the picture would totally break up and roll a few times
before settling down. Later there was partial relief with
genlock but getting into and out of it was an art. Best done
before the start of a program and maintained through it.
Which allowed one live feed within a show and only one.
Later came frame syncs which were great but, at first, ensured
lip-flap. It's still the best that can be done but most
responsible users now have variabled audio delay to match the
video and some actually use it!
Be gentle on marketing types! I made an indecent income through
sales and marketing of GVG stuff all over the world for about
20-years! When I shifted to all product marketing I knew what
was and was not possible but never let that interfere with my
riding the engineers! Sometimes they surprised themselves.
Ever hear of "unlimited re-entry"?
> Talent hates to make adjustments from what they are used to.
> And they can't bitch up to the producer, so they rattle
> engineering's chains. What a crock.
Yeah, but retaliation was so much fun.....like in late night
TV when you could do stuff like mis-spell the "talent's" name
on the key below his talking head.
> Interestingly enough, the TV industry first had quite an
> issue with analog satellite delay of program audio and
> video, and different delay times for IFB feeds that took
> different routes than the program feed. Multi hop satellite
> feeds drove unschooled directors crazy.
It long pre-dated satellites. Cross-country microwave feeds
were hell. Even in monochrome, everything running on it's own
time base. Anchormen (no anchor-babes back then) would say
something like: "We go now live to Los Angeles and....".
then the picture would totally break up and roll a few times
before settling down. Later there was partial relief with
genlock but getting into and out of it was an art. Best done
before the start of a program and maintained through it.
Which allowed one live feed within a show and only one.
Later came frame syncs which were great but, at first, ensured
lip-flap. It's still the best that can be done but most
responsible users now have variabled audio delay to match the
video and some actually use it!
Be gentle on marketing types! I made an indecent income through
sales and marketing of GVG stuff all over the world for about
20-years! When I shifted to all product marketing I knew what
was and was not possible but never let that interfere with my
riding the engineers! Sometimes they surprised themselves.
Ever hear of "unlimited re-entry"?
> Talent hates to make adjustments from what they are used to.
> And they can't bitch up to the producer, so they rattle
> engineering's chains. What a crock.
Yeah, but retaliation was so much fun.....like in late night
TV when you could do stuff like mis-spell the "talent's" name
on the key below his talking head.
T
THEInsultant
Guest
> > Yes.. That's a real problem with the "HD" radio thing. No
>
> > off-air monitoring for talent. Here's my take on how
> we're
> > going to have to deal with this new problem. First, old
> > 8100s, etc. go to the studio so they can be used to
> process
> > the audio for the talent's headphones and monitors. If
> the
> > station has a 8200, 8400 or 8500, etc. and the processor
> is
> > at the studio-end, then there is an audio-out on those
> units
> > that can be sent to the studio for monitoring before the
> > delay. Ok..
>
> Not possible....the audio that hits the IBOC encoder should
> be virgin and 44.1 kHz...NOT run through any
> processing....the 8x00 processor for the analog will HAVE to
> be at the xmtr site...for rimshots that can be 65 miles from
> the studio!
> They will HAVE to have a 8100 or similar for the local....at
> ABC Radio in Dallas, they tried using Orban 424s and similar
> for simulated air...they just DONT match up to a real on air
> processor like the 8x00 series....
>
> The next problem is remotes. Take the
> > pre-delay feed that you're sending into the studio and
> just
> > feed it to a analog 67KHz SCA encoder. You can even
> > interupt it with a talkback or if you're lucky enough to
> > have a "Studio Monitor" module with fold-back, just send
> the
> > headphones for that "room" to the SCA and TB works super!
> > Then, go buy some of those, good, cheap SCA battery-op
> > radios from radiosca.com . Have the talent listen to
> them
> > for off-air cues. From what I've read the analog SCA @ 67
>
> > is still useful and gets not a whole lot of interference
> > from the digital crap.
>
> Lets see the jock at the remote will quit talking but his
> voice will still be on the air for 8 secs! Now if the rmt is
> distant (aka: out of town) we know ISDN ,etc already adds
> delay and its acceptable.....but at a LOCAL (mall, etc) rmt?
> This will prove to be the undoing.....hell, I hated running
> Comrex or ISDN on a local rmt if I could avoid it....give me
> a Marti or dry line anyday for that!
>
> > Here's something though I see for us in the future with
> the
> > general public. How is sporting events going to work when
>
> > we're 8 seconds behind (plus any sat-hops of 2 sec or so)
> > for those that are used to taking a radio to "the game"?
> > Isn't that going to suck? He's at the 30, 20, 10,
> > touchdown! Oh hell.. he's already there and this guy on
> the
> > radio is still babbling about if he is gonna make it or
> not!
>
> How true and sad....some of the HD AMs already dump their
> IBOC when running a live sports game so the delay is out of
> the circuit.....DUH! (who didnt think ahead?
>
So has anyone other than Kahn heard his system for digital? The problem with that guy in my opinion is he's real good at spewing how great and superior his stuff is, but he doesn't give enough of his precious information out so that a guy can consider his products much more than vaporware. AM IBOC is a joke. I actually hope Kahn has something worth trying. Wouldn't it have been smarter to just ask for channel 6 when analog TV goes away for the AM IBOC simulcast utilizing the FM standard? Wouldn't it be worth waiting for?<P ID="signature">______________
--- THE Insultant ---</P>
>
> > off-air monitoring for talent. Here's my take on how
> we're
> > going to have to deal with this new problem. First, old
> > 8100s, etc. go to the studio so they can be used to
> process
> > the audio for the talent's headphones and monitors. If
> the
> > station has a 8200, 8400 or 8500, etc. and the processor
> is
> > at the studio-end, then there is an audio-out on those
> units
> > that can be sent to the studio for monitoring before the
> > delay. Ok..
>
> Not possible....the audio that hits the IBOC encoder should
> be virgin and 44.1 kHz...NOT run through any
> processing....the 8x00 processor for the analog will HAVE to
> be at the xmtr site...for rimshots that can be 65 miles from
> the studio!
> They will HAVE to have a 8100 or similar for the local....at
> ABC Radio in Dallas, they tried using Orban 424s and similar
> for simulated air...they just DONT match up to a real on air
> processor like the 8x00 series....
>
> The next problem is remotes. Take the
> > pre-delay feed that you're sending into the studio and
> just
> > feed it to a analog 67KHz SCA encoder. You can even
> > interupt it with a talkback or if you're lucky enough to
> > have a "Studio Monitor" module with fold-back, just send
> the
> > headphones for that "room" to the SCA and TB works super!
> > Then, go buy some of those, good, cheap SCA battery-op
> > radios from radiosca.com . Have the talent listen to
> them
> > for off-air cues. From what I've read the analog SCA @ 67
>
> > is still useful and gets not a whole lot of interference
> > from the digital crap.
>
> Lets see the jock at the remote will quit talking but his
> voice will still be on the air for 8 secs! Now if the rmt is
> distant (aka: out of town) we know ISDN ,etc already adds
> delay and its acceptable.....but at a LOCAL (mall, etc) rmt?
> This will prove to be the undoing.....hell, I hated running
> Comrex or ISDN on a local rmt if I could avoid it....give me
> a Marti or dry line anyday for that!
>
> > Here's something though I see for us in the future with
> the
> > general public. How is sporting events going to work when
>
> > we're 8 seconds behind (plus any sat-hops of 2 sec or so)
> > for those that are used to taking a radio to "the game"?
> > Isn't that going to suck? He's at the 30, 20, 10,
> > touchdown! Oh hell.. he's already there and this guy on
> the
> > radio is still babbling about if he is gonna make it or
> not!
>
> How true and sad....some of the HD AMs already dump their
> IBOC when running a live sports game so the delay is out of
> the circuit.....DUH! (who didnt think ahead?
>
So has anyone other than Kahn heard his system for digital? The problem with that guy in my opinion is he's real good at spewing how great and superior his stuff is, but he doesn't give enough of his precious information out so that a guy can consider his products much more than vaporware. AM IBOC is a joke. I actually hope Kahn has something worth trying. Wouldn't it have been smarter to just ask for channel 6 when analog TV goes away for the AM IBOC simulcast utilizing the FM standard? Wouldn't it be worth waiting for?<P ID="signature">______________
--- THE Insultant ---</P>
K
Khafre
Guest
>
> Actually the device has no real application since most
> stations
> are voice tracked and there is nobody on staff listening.
>
It's a sad day that no one pays attention to when you can joke about no one listening on staff and everyone can relate.
> Actually the device has no real application since most
> stations
> are voice tracked and there is nobody on staff listening.
>
It's a sad day that no one pays attention to when you can joke about no one listening on staff and everyone can relate.
C
CW
Guest
> So has anyone other than Kahn heard his system for digital?
> The problem with that guy in my opinion is he's real good at
> spewing how great and superior his stuff is, but he doesn't
> give enough of his precious information out so that a guy
> can consider his products much more than vaporware. AM IBOC
> is a joke. I actually hope Kahn has something worth trying.
> Wouldn't it have been smarter to just ask for channel 6
> when analog TV goes away for the AM IBOC simulcast utilizing
> the FM standard? Wouldn't it be worth waiting for?
Two AMs in SETX are running his system....they sound like crap in analog at times (cant say what the digital sounds like since there are NO rcvrs for it)
DRM has been approved for SW....why not for AM?? Could it be because a lot of cash has changed hands??? HMMMMMM could be!! Ibiquity has too much invested in IBOC now...but DRM works and works well!!Kahn's system is an expansion of the ISB/Powerside system..evidently the underused sideband is the one that carries the digital info.....nice idea actually...but WHO has a rcvr for it? noone I know of....Kahn is a great engineer...but his ego and his lack of personality is what did in his AM Stereo system (that and his refusal to allow anyone else licensing rights, etc....GEESH)
> The problem with that guy in my opinion is he's real good at
> spewing how great and superior his stuff is, but he doesn't
> give enough of his precious information out so that a guy
> can consider his products much more than vaporware. AM IBOC
> is a joke. I actually hope Kahn has something worth trying.
> Wouldn't it have been smarter to just ask for channel 6
> when analog TV goes away for the AM IBOC simulcast utilizing
> the FM standard? Wouldn't it be worth waiting for?
Two AMs in SETX are running his system....they sound like crap in analog at times (cant say what the digital sounds like since there are NO rcvrs for it)
DRM has been approved for SW....why not for AM?? Could it be because a lot of cash has changed hands??? HMMMMMM could be!! Ibiquity has too much invested in IBOC now...but DRM works and works well!!Kahn's system is an expansion of the ISB/Powerside system..evidently the underused sideband is the one that carries the digital info.....nice idea actually...but WHO has a rcvr for it? noone I know of....Kahn is a great engineer...but his ego and his lack of personality is what did in his AM Stereo system (that and his refusal to allow anyone else licensing rights, etc....GEESH)
K
k9ez
Guest
> > So has anyone other than Kahn heard his system for
> digital?
> > The problem with that guy in my opinion is he's real good
> at
> > spewing how great and superior his stuff is, but he
> doesn't
> > give enough of his precious information out so that a guy
> > can consider his products much more than vaporware. AM
> IBOC
> > is a joke. I actually hope Kahn has something worth
> trying.
> > Wouldn't it have been smarter to just ask for channel 6
> > when analog TV goes away for the AM IBOC simulcast
> utilizing
> > the FM standard? Wouldn't it be worth waiting for?
>
> Two AMs in SETX are running his system....they sound like
> crap in analog at times (cant say what the digital sounds
> like since there are NO rcvrs for it)
> DRM has been approved for SW....why not for AM?? Could it be
> because a lot of cash has changed hands??? HMMMMMM could
> be!! Ibiquity has too much invested in IBOC now...but DRM
> works and works well!!Kahn's system is an expansion of the
> ISB/Powerside system..evidently the underused sideband is
> the one that carries the digital info.....nice idea
> actually...but WHO has a rcvr for it? noone I know
> of....Kahn is a great engineer...but his ego and his lack of
> personality is what did in his AM Stereo system (that and
> his refusal to allow anyone else licensing rights,
> etc....GEESH)
>
My understanding of DRM is that you cannot have analog and DRM running at the same time.
> digital?
> > The problem with that guy in my opinion is he's real good
> at
> > spewing how great and superior his stuff is, but he
> doesn't
> > give enough of his precious information out so that a guy
> > can consider his products much more than vaporware. AM
> IBOC
> > is a joke. I actually hope Kahn has something worth
> trying.
> > Wouldn't it have been smarter to just ask for channel 6
> > when analog TV goes away for the AM IBOC simulcast
> utilizing
> > the FM standard? Wouldn't it be worth waiting for?
>
> Two AMs in SETX are running his system....they sound like
> crap in analog at times (cant say what the digital sounds
> like since there are NO rcvrs for it)
> DRM has been approved for SW....why not for AM?? Could it be
> because a lot of cash has changed hands??? HMMMMMM could
> be!! Ibiquity has too much invested in IBOC now...but DRM
> works and works well!!Kahn's system is an expansion of the
> ISB/Powerside system..evidently the underused sideband is
> the one that carries the digital info.....nice idea
> actually...but WHO has a rcvr for it? noone I know
> of....Kahn is a great engineer...but his ego and his lack of
> personality is what did in his AM Stereo system (that and
> his refusal to allow anyone else licensing rights,
> etc....GEESH)
>
My understanding of DRM is that you cannot have analog and DRM running at the same time.
> > > So has anyone other than Kahn heard his system for
> > digital?
> > > The problem with that guy in my opinion is he's real
> good
> > at
> > > spewing how great and superior his stuff is, but he
> > doesn't
> > > give enough of his precious information out so that a
> guy
> > > can consider his products much more than vaporware. AM
> > IBOC
> > > is a joke. I actually hope Kahn has something worth
> > trying.
> > > Wouldn't it have been smarter to just ask for channel 6
>
> > > when analog TV goes away for the AM IBOC simulcast
> > utilizing
> > > the FM standard? Wouldn't it be worth waiting for?
> >
> > Two AMs in SETX are running his system....they sound like
> > crap in analog at times (cant say what the digital sounds
> > like since there are NO rcvrs for it)
> > DRM has been approved for SW....why not for AM?? Could it
> be
> > because a lot of cash has changed hands??? HMMMMMM could
> > be!! Ibiquity has too much invested in IBOC now...but DRM
> > works and works well!!Kahn's system is an expansion of the
>
> > ISB/Powerside system..evidently the underused sideband is
> > the one that carries the digital info.....nice idea
> > actually...but WHO has a rcvr for it? noone I know
> > of....Kahn is a great engineer...but his ego and his lack
> of
> > personality is what did in his AM Stereo system (that and
> > his refusal to allow anyone else licensing rights,
> > etc....GEESH)
> >
>
> My understanding of DRM is that you cannot have analog and
> DRM running at the same time.
>
The biggest mistake that we did in this country was insist on IBOC. The European and Canadian Eureka system is simply superior -- although the British are using ridiculously low bitrates in order to multicast.
> > digital?
> > > The problem with that guy in my opinion is he's real
> good
> > at
> > > spewing how great and superior his stuff is, but he
> > doesn't
> > > give enough of his precious information out so that a
> guy
> > > can consider his products much more than vaporware. AM
> > IBOC
> > > is a joke. I actually hope Kahn has something worth
> > trying.
> > > Wouldn't it have been smarter to just ask for channel 6
>
> > > when analog TV goes away for the AM IBOC simulcast
> > utilizing
> > > the FM standard? Wouldn't it be worth waiting for?
> >
> > Two AMs in SETX are running his system....they sound like
> > crap in analog at times (cant say what the digital sounds
> > like since there are NO rcvrs for it)
> > DRM has been approved for SW....why not for AM?? Could it
> be
> > because a lot of cash has changed hands??? HMMMMMM could
> > be!! Ibiquity has too much invested in IBOC now...but DRM
> > works and works well!!Kahn's system is an expansion of the
>
> > ISB/Powerside system..evidently the underused sideband is
> > the one that carries the digital info.....nice idea
> > actually...but WHO has a rcvr for it? noone I know
> > of....Kahn is a great engineer...but his ego and his lack
> of
> > personality is what did in his AM Stereo system (that and
> > his refusal to allow anyone else licensing rights,
> > etc....GEESH)
> >
>
> My understanding of DRM is that you cannot have analog and
> DRM running at the same time.
>
The biggest mistake that we did in this country was insist on IBOC. The European and Canadian Eureka system is simply superior -- although the British are using ridiculously low bitrates in order to multicast.
A
Andy_Brown
Guest
Re: Exactly
> Anchormen (no anchor-babes back then) would say
> something like: "We go now live to Los Angeles and....".
> then the picture would totally break up and roll a few times
> before settling down.
Now that you mention it, I remember that from high school and before.
Walter Cronkite in monochrome. Sigh.
We got our first color set in I think '64 (I was 13).
> Later came frame syncs which were great
When I started in TV it was already '85 and we had a bunch of F.S.
and the metro's first C Band uplink. We did everything coming out
of Portland for all the networks back then.
> Be gentle on marketing types! I made an indecent income
> through sales and marketing of GVG stuff all over the world for
> about 20-years!
Good grief. Even you!! Nah, just kidding. If I could have gotten in
I would have. Nowadays, at 54, I can't even buy an interview with
the big boys. No sales experience. No inside connection. Poverty soon!!!
> Ever hear of "unlimited re-entry"?
No. Do I want to?
> > Talent hates to make adjustments from what they are used to.
> > And they can't bitch up to the producer, so they rattle
> > engineering's chains. What a crock.
>
> Yeah, but retaliation was so much fun.....like in late night
> TV when you could do stuff like mis-spell the "talent's"
> name on the key below his talking head.
Vidifont Mark II (or III?) was the oldest box when I got there.
What a rattletrap! Font operators never spelled anything correctly anyway!!!
<P ID="signature">______________
Electricity is really just organized lightning.
~George Carlin</P>
> Anchormen (no anchor-babes back then) would say
> something like: "We go now live to Los Angeles and....".
> then the picture would totally break up and roll a few times
> before settling down.
Now that you mention it, I remember that from high school and before.
Walter Cronkite in monochrome. Sigh.
We got our first color set in I think '64 (I was 13).
> Later came frame syncs which were great
When I started in TV it was already '85 and we had a bunch of F.S.
and the metro's first C Band uplink. We did everything coming out
of Portland for all the networks back then.
> Be gentle on marketing types! I made an indecent income
> through sales and marketing of GVG stuff all over the world for
> about 20-years!
Good grief. Even you!! Nah, just kidding. If I could have gotten in
I would have. Nowadays, at 54, I can't even buy an interview with
the big boys. No sales experience. No inside connection. Poverty soon!!!
> Ever hear of "unlimited re-entry"?
No. Do I want to?
> > Talent hates to make adjustments from what they are used to.
> > And they can't bitch up to the producer, so they rattle
> > engineering's chains. What a crock.
>
> Yeah, but retaliation was so much fun.....like in late night
> TV when you could do stuff like mis-spell the "talent's"
> name on the key below his talking head.
Vidifont Mark II (or III?) was the oldest box when I got there.
What a rattletrap! Font operators never spelled anything correctly anyway!!!
<P ID="signature">______________
Electricity is really just organized lightning.
~George Carlin</P>
DRM and CAM-D
> My understanding of DRM is that you cannot have analog and
> DRM running at the same time.
DRM has an analog-compatible mode, at the expense of reduced data rate.
More details at: <a target="_blank" href=http://beradio.com/iboc_update/iboc_update_052604/>http://beradio.com/iboc_update/iboc_update_052604/</a>
From what I have read about Kahn's CAM-D system, it uses a low-data-rate digital stream to carry high-frequency audio content. This somehow gets added to the 8 or 9 kHz analog audio in the main channel. Nobody knows for sure except Leonard, and he's not giving out any technical details.
> My understanding of DRM is that you cannot have analog and
> DRM running at the same time.
DRM has an analog-compatible mode, at the expense of reduced data rate.
More details at: <a target="_blank" href=http://beradio.com/iboc_update/iboc_update_052604/>http://beradio.com/iboc_update/iboc_update_052604/</a>
From what I have read about Kahn's CAM-D system, it uses a low-data-rate digital stream to carry high-frequency audio content. This somehow gets added to the 8 or 9 kHz analog audio in the main channel. Nobody knows for sure except Leonard, and he's not giving out any technical details.
K
k9ez
Guest
> > > > So has anyone other than Kahn heard his system for
> > > digital?
> > > > The problem with that guy in my opinion is he's real
> > good
> > > at
> > > > spewing how great and superior his stuff is, but he
> > > doesn't
> > > > give enough of his precious information out so that a
> > guy
> > > > can consider his products much more than vaporware.
> AM
> > > IBOC
> > > > is a joke. I actually hope Kahn has something worth
> > > trying.
> > > > Wouldn't it have been smarter to just ask for channel
> 6
> >
> > > > when analog TV goes away for the AM IBOC simulcast
> > > utilizing
> > > > the FM standard? Wouldn't it be worth waiting for?
> > >
> > > Two AMs in SETX are running his system....they sound
> like
> > > crap in analog at times (cant say what the digital
> sounds
> > > like since there are NO rcvrs for it)
> > > DRM has been approved for SW....why not for AM?? Could
> it
> > be
> > > because a lot of cash has changed hands??? HMMMMMM could
>
> > > be!! Ibiquity has too much invested in IBOC now...but
> DRM
> > > works and works well!!Kahn's system is an expansion of
> the
> >
> > > ISB/Powerside system..evidently the underused sideband
> is
> > > the one that carries the digital info.....nice idea
> > > actually...but WHO has a rcvr for it? noone I know
> > > of....Kahn is a great engineer...but his ego and his
> lack
> > of
> > > personality is what did in his AM Stereo system (that
> and
> > > his refusal to allow anyone else licensing rights,
> > > etc....GEESH)
> > >
> >
> > My understanding of DRM is that you cannot have analog and
>
> > DRM running at the same time.
> >
>
> The biggest mistake that we did in this country was insist
> on IBOC. The European and Canadian Eureka system is simply
> superior -- although the British are using ridiculously low
> bitrates in order to multicast.
>
Which you KNOW we would have done the same thing.
The thing with Canadian Eureka, is that it is failing.... no one is using it. This according to an engineer aquaintance of mine in Canada.
> > > digital?
> > > > The problem with that guy in my opinion is he's real
> > good
> > > at
> > > > spewing how great and superior his stuff is, but he
> > > doesn't
> > > > give enough of his precious information out so that a
> > guy
> > > > can consider his products much more than vaporware.
> AM
> > > IBOC
> > > > is a joke. I actually hope Kahn has something worth
> > > trying.
> > > > Wouldn't it have been smarter to just ask for channel
> 6
> >
> > > > when analog TV goes away for the AM IBOC simulcast
> > > utilizing
> > > > the FM standard? Wouldn't it be worth waiting for?
> > >
> > > Two AMs in SETX are running his system....they sound
> like
> > > crap in analog at times (cant say what the digital
> sounds
> > > like since there are NO rcvrs for it)
> > > DRM has been approved for SW....why not for AM?? Could
> it
> > be
> > > because a lot of cash has changed hands??? HMMMMMM could
>
> > > be!! Ibiquity has too much invested in IBOC now...but
> DRM
> > > works and works well!!Kahn's system is an expansion of
> the
> >
> > > ISB/Powerside system..evidently the underused sideband
> is
> > > the one that carries the digital info.....nice idea
> > > actually...but WHO has a rcvr for it? noone I know
> > > of....Kahn is a great engineer...but his ego and his
> lack
> > of
> > > personality is what did in his AM Stereo system (that
> and
> > > his refusal to allow anyone else licensing rights,
> > > etc....GEESH)
> > >
> >
> > My understanding of DRM is that you cannot have analog and
>
> > DRM running at the same time.
> >
>
> The biggest mistake that we did in this country was insist
> on IBOC. The European and Canadian Eureka system is simply
> superior -- although the British are using ridiculously low
> bitrates in order to multicast.
>
Which you KNOW we would have done the same thing.
The thing with Canadian Eureka, is that it is failing.... no one is using it. This according to an engineer aquaintance of mine in Canada.
L
Les
Guest
Re: Exactly
> When I started in TV it was already '85 and we had a bunch
> of F.S.
I sold a few of the very first ones made by NEC...close to,
or just over, 100-grand each at the time! Thousands of
chips, each one 16 bits.
> Good grief. Even you!! Nah, just kidding. If I could have
> gotten in I would have.
With the atmosphere in that side of the business now, and the
foreign ownerships, you're better off staying out of it. I
was somewhere between smart and lucky and grabbed an early
retirement around 1995.
> > Ever hear of "unlimited re-entry"?
>
> No. Do I want to?
If you ever worked TV. It started with the Model 300. Up to then,
on a 3-M/E switcher, M/E-1 re-entered M/E's 2 and 3 and Pgm/Pst.
M/E-2 couldn't get back up to 1; 3 couldn't get back up to 2 or 1.
The first pass at manufacturing the 300 allowed any M/E to re-enter
any other, up or down. (M/E = Mix/Effects System, wherein one
selects sources for transition, keys, mixes, wipes, etc.). In
reality it violated the laws of physics and only a handful were
built. The whole project was redone in a more conventional way,
but still allowing unlimited re-entry but at the expense of
incredible throughput delay. All the originals were recalled and
replaced; there was very little that could be salvaged from each.
Important point was the company stood behind the product; how many
do that today? I can think of maybe three....
> Vidifont Mark II (or III?) was the oldest box when I got
> there.
> What a rattletrap! Font operators never spelled anything
> correctly anyway!!!
I survived the very early Chyrons (when they spelled it "Chiron")
which were programmed by means of front panel toggle switches. Then
"Compositor I" which was programmed with paper tape and whose
"brain" was a PDP-11 board. Also a generation of TCR-100's...the
version that left NO room for fingers between bins and could do
amputations at battlefield speed!
It was my observation that CG operators didn't so much not know how
to spell as preferred NOT to spell properly. Other retaliatory
trick: Chroma key out the eyes of the late-night anchor and fill
with flames from stock film footage. Delicate work but worth it
to bring to the anchor a truly satanic image! Or to change the
color of the anchorette's dress so it clashed horribly with her
hair.....
We're getting old!!!
> When I started in TV it was already '85 and we had a bunch
> of F.S.
I sold a few of the very first ones made by NEC...close to,
or just over, 100-grand each at the time! Thousands of
chips, each one 16 bits.
> Good grief. Even you!! Nah, just kidding. If I could have
> gotten in I would have.
With the atmosphere in that side of the business now, and the
foreign ownerships, you're better off staying out of it. I
was somewhere between smart and lucky and grabbed an early
retirement around 1995.
> > Ever hear of "unlimited re-entry"?
>
> No. Do I want to?
If you ever worked TV. It started with the Model 300. Up to then,
on a 3-M/E switcher, M/E-1 re-entered M/E's 2 and 3 and Pgm/Pst.
M/E-2 couldn't get back up to 1; 3 couldn't get back up to 2 or 1.
The first pass at manufacturing the 300 allowed any M/E to re-enter
any other, up or down. (M/E = Mix/Effects System, wherein one
selects sources for transition, keys, mixes, wipes, etc.). In
reality it violated the laws of physics and only a handful were
built. The whole project was redone in a more conventional way,
but still allowing unlimited re-entry but at the expense of
incredible throughput delay. All the originals were recalled and
replaced; there was very little that could be salvaged from each.
Important point was the company stood behind the product; how many
do that today? I can think of maybe three....
> Vidifont Mark II (or III?) was the oldest box when I got
> there.
> What a rattletrap! Font operators never spelled anything
> correctly anyway!!!
I survived the very early Chyrons (when they spelled it "Chiron")
which were programmed by means of front panel toggle switches. Then
"Compositor I" which was programmed with paper tape and whose
"brain" was a PDP-11 board. Also a generation of TCR-100's...the
version that left NO room for fingers between bins and could do
amputations at battlefield speed!
It was my observation that CG operators didn't so much not know how
to spell as preferred NOT to spell properly. Other retaliatory
trick: Chroma key out the eyes of the late-night anchor and fill
with flames from stock film footage. Delicate work but worth it
to bring to the anchor a truly satanic image! Or to change the
color of the anchorette's dress so it clashed horribly with her
hair.....
We're getting old!!!
Our sales people love to sell remotes in locations that are not accessible by Marti, nor have any kind of land line already installed. Too expensive to spend several hundred dollars to get a line installed for 6 /2 minute drop-ins in the typical two hour remote. Sometimes cell phone is the only option.
I've re-wired a hands free headset/mike combination to replace the little condensor mike with an XLR. Works fine with a Motorola V-60 cell phone, providing that the dynamic mike has enough output to drive the phone. E.G.: an EV 635 or RE-16. As long as you are in a relatively quiet (ambient noise) area, sounds no better or worse than any other POTS remote.
Works fine, that is, so long as you don't have to get off air cues at a remote.
Like the "Ellenboro Glass Festival" we were promoting yesterday. Our Ops manager is doing the remote, for some reason scheduled for between 9 and 11 Saturday morning. (Which was probably too early Satuirday morning for him, he DJ's Friday nights). We have speakers on the remote truck, but there's too much delay through the digital cell phone network to listen off air.
He has to fill a 2 minute local hole before going back into satellite music programing. He misses the music coming back up. Next thing we know, it's a six minute break. Sigh.... at least the sponsors got their money's worth!
Everyone complains about radio being canned nowadays, but we keep moving towards technology that demands a pre-packed product.
I've re-wired a hands free headset/mike combination to replace the little condensor mike with an XLR. Works fine with a Motorola V-60 cell phone, providing that the dynamic mike has enough output to drive the phone. E.G.: an EV 635 or RE-16. As long as you are in a relatively quiet (ambient noise) area, sounds no better or worse than any other POTS remote.
Works fine, that is, so long as you don't have to get off air cues at a remote.
Like the "Ellenboro Glass Festival" we were promoting yesterday. Our Ops manager is doing the remote, for some reason scheduled for between 9 and 11 Saturday morning. (Which was probably too early Satuirday morning for him, he DJ's Friday nights). We have speakers on the remote truck, but there's too much delay through the digital cell phone network to listen off air.
He has to fill a 2 minute local hole before going back into satellite music programing. He misses the music coming back up. Next thing we know, it's a six minute break. Sigh.... at least the sponsors got their money's worth!
Everyone complains about radio being canned nowadays, but we keep moving towards technology that demands a pre-packed product.
- Status