"HD AM in NJ/NY ?"

[700WLW]

Actually, I tried HD Radio in an electonics store, but could get only two stations - the stations were boring and sounded exactly like analog radio, so no need to waste $200 on an HD radio, when I could listen free on the Internet, with AOL Radio. The analog boom-boxes were booming-away, getting many stations. All of the table-top, and the one HD Radio, were all replaced by other Christmas merchandise. Here's my glorious review on Circuit City, with only 400+ votes, over four months:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Cust.../order/D/rpem/ccd/productDetailReview.do#tabs

Pretty cool - I made sure, that I was first-in-line to bash HD Radio (actually, the second review got put there, by mistake, but that is ok) ! Also, I have bashed HD Radio, for most HD Radio products, on Amazon and Radio Shack, too !
All of these, have received such few votes, it probably doesn't make much difference, anyway ! Is that, over-the-top enough for you ?

You still have to wade through my posts - Have a Good Day !

Ya know, I bet if anyone took the time to contact the appropriate people at Circuit City, Amazon and Radio Shack and direct them to this thread, those reviews you're so proud of could disappear. Hopefully someone who has more time on their hands than me will take the ball and run with it.

It's also good to know that your impressions of HD audio quality were formed in an electronics store with "analog boom-boxes were booming-away."

Personally, I can't make any real judgements about audio quality in that environment and I doubt you can either.

Thanks for once again showing everyone just how flawed your "research" and opinions on HD Radio really are.

"Google Trends Examples"

"Google Trends analyzes a portion of Google web searches to compute how many searches have been done for the terms you enter relative to the total number of searches done on Google over time. We then show you a graph with the results – our search-volume graph... Here you can see how interest in quirky American Idol singer William Hung was declining ever since mid-2004. A typical one-hit wonder?"

http://blog.outer-court.com/archive/2006-05-11-n38.html

"What kind of digital radio are listeners searching for?"

"What a cool analysis Google now provides via Google Trends. It's what folks are searching for - and we can assume that search is a representation of interest."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/10/what_kind_of_di.html

"Google Trends From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"

"Google Trends is a tool from Google Labs that shows the most popularly searched terms from the beginning of 2004 to now. Google Trends charts how often a particular search term is entered relative the total search volume across various regions of the world, and in various languages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Trends

"Google Trends Launches"

"Up to five terms can be compared. And you can also view queries that contain either or two terms, using a vertical bar “|”. More advanced queries can be done as well - see the FAQs for details. Google also puts markers next to major news events that are about that search query, helping to explain surges. Data can be sorted by time, language, geographic location, etc."

http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/05/10/google-trends-launches/

See, it is real difficult - if people are searching for HD Radio, they enter "HD Radio", and same for competing technologies, watch:

http://www.google.com/trends?q="hd+radio",+"internet+radio",+xm,+sirius,+podcast

What's that flat line ? A while back, some IBOC supports here also threatened to have my reviews removed, but I contacted Amazon, Circuit City, and Radio Shack and warned them, and they responded, that they do not take reviews off their websites, unless inappropriate, or unrelated reviews are posted - too bad ! Sales of HD radios are so anemic, that removing negative reviews would make no difference, anyway - go for it ! Now, I just have to wait, and see, if Sharper Image accepts reviews !

 

[EasyPeazy]

Actually, I tried HD Radio in an electonics store, but could get only two stations - the stations were boring and sounded exactly like analog radio, so no need to waste $200 on an HD radio, when I could listen free on the Internet, with AOL Radio. The analog boom-boxes were booming-away, getting many stations. All of the table-top, and the one HD Radio, were all replaced by other Christmas merchandise. Here's my glorious review on Circuit City, with only 400+ votes, over four months:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Cust.../order/D/rpem/ccd/productDetailReview.do#tabs

Pretty cool - I made sure, that I was first-in-line to bash HD Radio (actually, the second review got put there, by mistake, but that is ok) ! Also, I have bashed HD Radio, for most HD Radio products, on Amazon and Radio Shack, too !
All of these, have received such few votes, it probably doesn't make much difference, anyway ! Is that, over-the-top enough for you ?

You still have to wade through my posts - Have a Good Day !

Ya know, I bet if anyone took the time to contact the appropriate people at Circuit City, Amazon and Radio Shack and direct them to this thread, those reviews you're so proud of could disappear. Hopefully someone who has more time on their hands than me will take the ball and run with it.

It's also good to know that your impressions of HD audio quality were formed in an electronics store with "analog boom-boxes were booming-away."

Personally, I can't make any real judgements about audio quality in that environment and I doubt you can either.

Thanks for once again showing everyone just how flawed your "research" and opinions on HD Radio really are.

"Google Trends Examples"

"Google Trends analyzes a portion of Google web searches to compute how many searches have been done for the terms you enter relative to the total number of searches done on Google over time. We then show you a graph with the results – our search-volume graph... Here you can see how interest in quirky American Idol singer William Hung was declining ever since mid-2004. A typical one-hit wonder?"

http://blog.outer-court.com/archive/2006-05-11-n38.html

"What kind of digital radio are listeners searching for?"

"What a cool analysis Google now provides via Google Trends. It's what folks are searching for - and we can assume that search is a representation of interest."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/10/what_kind_of_di.html

"Google Trends From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"

"Google Trends is a tool from Google Labs that shows the most popularly searched terms from the beginning of 2004 to now. Google Trends charts how often a particular search term is entered relative the total search volume across various regions of the world, and in various languages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Trends

"Google Trends Launches"

"Up to five terms can be compared. And you can also view queries that contain either or two terms, using a vertical bar “|”. More advanced queries can be done as well - see the FAQs for details. Google also puts markers next to major news events that are about that search query, helping to explain surges. Data can be sorted by time, language, geographic location, etc."

http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/05/10/google-trends-launches/

See, it is real difficult - if people are searching for HD Radio, they enter "HD Radio", and same for competing technologies, watch:

http://www.google.com/trends?q="hd+radio",+"internet+radio",+xm,+sirius,+podcast

What's that flat line ? A while back, some IBOC supports here also threatened to have my reviews removed, but I contacted Amazon, Circuit City, and Radio Shack and warned them, and they responded, that they do not take reviews off their websites, unless inappropriate, or unrelated reviews are posted - too bad ! Sales of HD radios are so anemic, that removing negative reviews would make no difference, anyway - go for it ! Now, I just have to wait, and see, if Sharper Image accepts reviews !

Of course, the Google Trends data you cite is totally inaccurate. It includes many searches for the other technologies you list that have absolutely nothing to do with consumer interest.

I'll be more than happy to point this out every time you push this faulty data.

 

[stevenNOLA]

Poor ground connectivity and the short spacing of stations make the Northeastern US a different ballgame compared with most of the country. 90 miles away you're in another major market and there are probably more 50 K stations on this region than in any other part of the US. out west altought they have 50K stations most are directional west and so you're not getting hit with erp's of over 300 Kw or greater as we are here. For instance, while I can hear NYC AM stations almost like locals in places like Hartford and Philladelphia, in the NYC metro area the same can not be said for any of the Philadelphia 50 stations or WTIC in Hartford. There is absolutely no part of the FM band without a station, which makes using those low power I-Pod FM transmitters a real challenge to use. I will add though, that one HD station which is over 60 miles from my house (WAWZ) comes in with a solid signal on both the HD 1 & 2 streams. With my Sangean HD tuner I can hear a station which is about 120 miles south east of me (WPUR) even though I have two local first adjacents on either side of it. The signal is weak and most people wouldn't bother but it's very dx-able and consistent. In the final analysis from a business standpoint, as long as you can cover AM & to a lesser extent PM drive, the rest of the day is of secondary importance. Running IBOC after dark would be important is the audience numbers were there. They really aren't. It's interesting and may attest to my location but while I can hear some stations from the central time zone, where they'd have to turn of their IBOC an hour after our sundown, they cause no interference to any station that I can hear.

Interesting. Being from Louisiana, ground conductivity explains why I'm accustomed to 50kw AM stations reaching 200+ miles (groundwave). WWL-870 New Orleans, for example, is listenable from just east of downtown Houston to east of Panama City, Florida (covering over 600 miles of I-10). Also, this station has a dynamite nighttime signal. I've recieved it clearly as far away as Chicago and the Delmarva Peninsula. From the Houston metro (my location), the furthest reliable nightime signal I can think of is WSB-750 Atlanta and WSM-650 Nashville. I would like to check out some east coast stations if there are any reaching down here, especially from the NY/NJ/Philly area. I know I can listen online but it's not as much fun. I will also look up some HD AM stations to my west that are running 50kw to see if I can pick them up near sunset. Something I never thought about trying.

Steven

 

[R.F. Burns]

You might consider wfan - 660, wabc - 770, and wcbs - 880 (If you can null out the Cuban QRM). I know I can hear each of them in Tampa on a table radio.They are each 50 K Non Directional. then there's WOR which is at 710 and might be listenable there. They are also IBOC. We have other 50 K stations but those are the only IBOC stations I am aware of.

 

[700WLW]

Google Trends is nothing, but about consumer interest - it is what, consumers are searching for:

"What kind of digital radio are listeners searching for?"

"What a cool analysis Google now provides via Google Trends. It's what folks are searching for - and we can assume that search is a representation of interest."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/10/what_kind_of_di.html

 

[EasyPeazy]

Google Trends is nothing, but about consumer interest - it is what, consumers are searching for:

"What kind of digital radio are listeners searching for?"

"What a cool analysis Google now provides via Google Trends. It's what folks are searching for - and we can assume that search is a representation of interest."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/10/what_kind_of_di.html

Sorry - until they develop a way to filter out searches that have nothing to do with consumer interest - like searches about XM's CEO - this will not be valid information.

 

[davideduardo]

I am unaccepting of the non-cancellation of the IBOC sidebands, the impossibly critical center-tuning required, and the imposed
high-frequency cut-off, all these ruining my reception of the host analog everywhere WITHIN the defined market.

Bob Orban, in ba.broadcast, mentions the development of recent Optimods and a sample of consumer receivers: at 4.1 kHz, receivers were 10 db down! Rolling at 5, 6 or 7 kHz (the latter two are possible) produces no impact on consumer grade AM radios. In fact, in many cases, it improves it.

The muffling of AM analog is a totally manufactured problem.
It's much easier and cheaper to design a proper AM receiver with 10-15 Khz of IF bandwidth.

It's too late to change anything in this area. Manufacturers know nobody under 45 or 50 cares about AM, so they save money with the cheapest AM stage possible.

With such a complacent attitude about degrading standards and purity, it would be small stretch to think you might be accepting about
loosening other standards.

The biggest issue is the increase of man made noise. This forces stations to focus only on the most intense signal areas.

And as to changing standards, anything that might make AM viable in the future is a good idea. Staying as we are is not.

I don't see any justification for marginalizing any listeners, or relaxing engineering standards.

We are talking about changing standards to reflect reality.

AM standards were implemented when most listening was in the evening, and much of it by skywave, before TV changed the model. Today, AM gets practiacally no listening in the evening, and skywave listening is made irrelevant by 14,000 total stations in the US (when the band was reorganized in the early 30's, there were only a few over 500 stations.

There won't be any younger listeners until the content adresses them.

It has been proven that AM formats, when put on FM attract vastly more 35-54 listening. The fact is that younger listeners will not tolerate AM as it is in its analog form.

Do you not remember when AMs had to run proofs, back when they sounded good?
See how much better the radio sounds since engineers are no longer required?

Yeah, I remeber when equipment was not stable, and tube deterioration changed the specs of a whole station. Today's gear is reliable, and T1 STLs and digital processors and test gear pretty much obviate the need for a proof. In fact, I had some incredible sounding AMs in the 60's and never did a proof. I think most AMs today, at least the viable ones, sound better.

Put an SAS board fed by an uncompressed AudioVault, an Optimod, a T1 link and a Nautel RX 50 and you have a really nice sounding station... better than stuff of the 60's coming off Yards and through Audimax and Volumax chains fed into Marti STLs and high level plate modulated transmitters with unbalanced modulators.

Being in the business so long, you have completely forgotten that radio was never defined by the FCC as a BUSINESS, but a SERVICE.

My concern is for what th elistener wants. It all falls in place if you pay attention to listners. Since the 20's, radio has been a business, as that is the way the programming gets out of the speakers.

 

[calstymes]

StevenNOLA proclaimed:

To say AM HD is complete failure is incorrect.

If it isn't a complete failure then it causes all sorts of adjacent channel interference and is definitely not ready for "prime time". That makes it pretty bad, wouldn't you say?

Nighttime operation is a different story and may not be a good idea.

"May" not be a good idea? Well ok. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I would like to know how they perform in the dense NJ/NY area FROM SOMEONE WHO IS AN OWNER.

I am an owner of two BA receivers. They both work like crap. These receivers refuse to decode the HD signals of several large powerhouse AM stations IN Manhattan where we are far from having "perfect" reception. This ranges from WOR which is in New Jersey and west from my location (almost line of site... a MAJOR disappointment) and WCBS which is in the Bronx and northeast from my location.

It was so frustrating that I gave up and am done trying. And then I must say what I got acclimated to as lousy sounding analog audio from WCBS is now much better because their HD is apparently broken at the moment. Thank goodness for small favors!

 

[R.F. Burns]

If it isn't a complete failure then it causes all sorts of adjacent channel interference and is definitely not ready for "prime time". That makes it pretty bad, wouldn't you say?

Could you please tell us which adjacent channel stations you can comfortably listen to at your location? Are you saying that the IBOC sidebands are so strong that they interfere within a first adjacents local coverage area? Why haven't I noticed that problem and I travel a good deal.

"May" not be a good idea? Well ok. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Yes they are, thank goodness we live in a country where that is so, right?

I am an owner of two BA receivers. They both work like crap. These receivers refuse to decode the HD signals of several large powerhouse AM stations IN Manhattan where we are far from having "perfect" reception. This ranges from WOR which is in New Jersey and west from my location (almost line of site... a MAJOR disappointment) and WCBS which is in the Bronx and northeast from my location.

It was so frustrating that I gave up and am done trying. And then I must say what I got acclimated to as lousy sounding analog audio from WCBS is now much better because their HD is apparently broken at the moment. Thank goodness for small favors!

It's already been proven that there are both good and bad receptors and apparently you have a bad one. Neither appears to be all that sensitive due to a very noisy LED section. It's a shielding problem that causes many of the radios to appear to be dead. That has nothing to do with the technology. It's a problem radio. I own the B.A. and the first one I received was awful. I brought it right back to the dealer and thankfully the other one they had in stock (A display model) worked fine. My Sangean tuner however is the most sensitive FM radio I have ever owned. I hear stations on it that I can't hear on any other radio in the house. The AM section is OK, but the output is way too hot for my amplifier. I can pad it down but I look at it as a work in progress and in my opinion due to the low bit rate the artifacts make it unacceptable. That said the IBOC sidebands cause no problem for me. As to WCBS's lousy analogue audio, I can tell you that no matter what they use so much processing due to lousy board work that their audio hasn't sounded good in years.

 

[calstymes]

R.F. Burns queried:

Could you please tell us which adjacent channel stations you can comfortably listen to at your location?

All AM reception in Manhattan is problematical, frought with electrical/computer noise interference and other nasties. Generally speaking, if the AM station's transmitter is west of Manhattan in the swamps of NJ then the signals are better. If the AM station's transmitter is anywhere else then there are reception problems.

Are you saying that the IBOC sidebands are so strong that they interfere within a first adjacents local coverage area?

I am saying that there are several smaller AM stations in shadow areas surrounding large metropolitan areas (including NYC) that are being interfered with by IBOC signals on the higher power AM stations in regions where they formerly had no problems. These are regions in which these stations were formerly able to sell advertising time and are no longer able to because they can no longer be heard there. Are these regions (strictly speaking) protected by "primary coverage"? I don't know. But there are legal actions pending over several of these interference cases and you WILL start to hear about them.

Why haven't I noticed that problem and I travel a good deal.

I don't know.

It's already been proven that there are both good and bad receptors and apparently you have a bad one.

I have two bad ones.

Neither appears to be all that sensitive due to a very noisy LED section. It's a shielding problem that causes many of the radios to appear to be dead. That has nothing to do with the technology. It's a problem radio.

It is also very poor quality control.

I own the B.A. and the first one I received was awful. I brought it right back to the dealer and thankfully the other one they had in stock (A display model) worked fine. My Sangean tuner however is the most sensitive FM radio I have ever owned. I hear stations on it that I can't hear on any other radio in the house. The AM section is OK, but the output is way too hot for my amplifier. I can pad it down but I look at it as a work in progress and in my opinion due to the low bit rate the artifacts make it unacceptable. That said the IBOC sidebands cause no problem for me.

That's great to hear.

As to WCBS's lousy analogue audio, I can tell you that no matter what they use so much processing due to lousy board work that their audio hasn't sounded good in years.

Yes, their "baseline" audio leaves much to be desired (no engineers = bad board work). However, when they turn on IBOC the audio really goes to hell. It had been worse when they first fired up IBOC but somebody must have done something because it did get better (but it is still not as good as it is when the IBOC signals are off).

 

[R.F. Burns]

R.F. Burns queried:

Could you please tell us which adjacent channel stations you can comfortably listen to at your location?

All AM reception in Manhattan is problematical, frought with electrical/computer noise interference and other nasties. Generally speaking, if the AM station's transmitter is west of Manhattan in the swamps of NJ then the signals are better. If the AM station's transmitter is anywhere else then there are reception problems.
[/quote]




You mean the West side of Manhattan, If you are east of 6th ave, the opposite would be true. The issues here are that most stations aren't directional west and trasnmitting from the east. The only one I can think of is WQEW and at 1560 at that frequency even with 50K the ground wave coverage with the terrible ground conductivity in this region makes it an unfare competition. The signals origionating in NJ for the most part have erp levels over 100's of KW and that has nothing to do with HD as a technology.

Are you saying that the IBOC sidebands are so strong that they interfere within a first adjacents local coverage area?

[/quote]
I am saying that there are several smaller AM stations in shadow areas surrounding large metropolitan areas (including NYC) that are being interfered with by IBOC signals on the higher power AM stations in regions where they formerly had no problems. These are regions in which these stations were formerly able to sell advertising time and are no longer able to because they can no longer be heard there. Are these regions (strictly speaking) protected by "primary coverage"? I don't know. But there are legal actions pending over several of these interference cases and you WILL start to hear about them.
[/quote]



This is plain wrong. Iboc has nothing to do with the interference and the ability to get a groundwave signal into Manhattan. What does effect that level of RF reaching a typical radio in NYC is first power output of the station. Let's say we have a 1 K station located 30 miles from Manhattan. A radio located in midtown has to contend with so much RF from so many sources, many of which are high power (Say 300,000 or more watts ERP from say a WINS at 1010) that receiving that relatively small amount of RF from a low powered distant station is a no go. There's a suburban station which was purchased by a Chicago are operator who thought that their 1K signal would provide a solid signal into Brooklyn. Of course anyone who knows this market would say this is crazy, but they felt because their lowe power suburban station in the midwest did an adequate job of covering Chicagos Polish speaking population, the same would hold true here. Ground conductivity alone makes this a failed argument. I've heard a recording from this station dating back to the early to mid 60's which was recorded at WNEW's east side studios and when this stations ground system was brand new (the station transmits from a swamp) and the signal was noisy and weak and about the same as it is today in that area of the city. You could never hear say WAEB 790 from Allentown in NYC due to WABC's pressence. The same holds true today.

Why haven't I noticed that problem and I travel a good deal.

I don't know.

It's already been proven that there are both good and bad receptors and apparently you have a bad one.

[/quote]
I have two bad ones.
[/quote]



I have one good one

Neither appears to be all that sensitive due to a very noisy LED section. It's a shielding problem that causes many of the radios to appear to be dead. That has nothing to do with the technology. It's a problem radio.

[/quote]
It is also very poor quality control.

Agreed, but what does that have to do with IBOC as a technology. It's like saying cars are bad because some lemons have been manufactured. Place the blame where it's deserved.

I own the B.A. and the first one I received was awful. I brought it right back to the dealer and thankfully the other one they had in stock (A display model) worked fine. My Sangean tuner however is the most sensitive FM radio I have ever owned. I hear stations on it that I can't hear on any other radio in the house. The AM section is OK, but the output is way too hot for my amplifier. I can pad it down but I look at it as a work in progress and in my opinion due to the low bit rate the artifacts make it unacceptable. That said the IBOC sidebands cause no problem for me.
[/quote]

That's great to hear.

As to WCBS's lousy analogue audio, I can tell you that no matter what they use so much processing due to lousy board work that their audio hasn't sounded good in years.

Yes, their "baseline" audio leaves much to be desired (no engineers = bad board work). However, when they turn on IBOC the audio really goes to hell. It had been worse when they first fired up IBOC but somebody must have done something because it did get better (but it is still not as good as it is when the IBOC signals are off).
[/quote]


Again, the technology isn't the issue, it's a work in progress. Would you have said let's not record sound because the aluminum foil surface sounds noisy or do we work to treak what we have?

 

[Tom Wells]

R.F. Burns queried:

Could you please tell us which adjacent channel stations you can comfortably listen to at your location?

All AM reception in Manhattan is problematical, frought with electrical/computer noise interference and other nasties. Generally speaking, if the AM station's transmitter is west of Manhattan in the swamps of NJ then the signals are better. If the AM station's transmitter is anywhere else then there are reception problems.

Are you saying that the IBOC sidebands are so strong that they interfere within a first adjacents local coverage area?
[/quote]
I am saying that there are several smaller AM stations in shadow areas surrounding large metropolitan areas (including NYC) that are being interfered with by IBOC signals on the higher power AM stations in regions where they formerly had no problems. These are regions in which these stations were formerly able to sell advertising time and are no longer able to because they can no longer be heard there. Are these regions (strictly speaking) protected by "primary coverage"? I don't know. But there are legal actions pending over several of these interference cases and you WILL start to hear about them.
[/quote]
This is plain wrong. Iboc has nothing to do with the interference and the ability to get a groundwave signal into Manhattan. What does effect that level of RF reaching a typical radio in NYC is first power output of the station. Let's say we have a 1 K station located 30 miles from Manhattan. A radio located in midtown has to contend with so much RF from so many sources, many of which are high power (Say 300,000 or more watts ERP from say a WINS at 1010) that receiving that relatively small amount of RF from a low powered distant station is a no go. There's a suburban station which was purchased by a Chicago are operator who thought that their 1K signal would provide a solid signal into Brooklyn. Of course anyone who knows this market would say this is crazy, but they felt because their lowe power suburban station in the midwest did an adequate job of covering Chicagos Polish speaking population, the same would hold true here. Ground conductivity alone makes this a failed argument. I've heard a recording from this station dating back to the early to mid 60's which was recorded at WNEW's east side studios and when this stations ground system was brand new (the station transmits from a swamp) and the signal was noisy and weak and about the same as it is today in that area of the city. You could never hear say WAEB 790 from Allentown in NYC due to WABC's pressence. The same holds true today.
[/quote]




Somehow, I've lost the nesting of the quotes above... sorry

Mr Birach purchased WNWI, a 250w signal on 1080 in Valparaiso, IN, on the basis of its good signal into Chicago.
The original Xmittr site was on the campus of the best radio engineering school ever (Valparaiso Technical Institute), and when built in 1965, nothing was spared to make the best install possible. The ground radials were "much more and many" than adequate.
When they moved to Oak Lawn, IL, and increased to 1kw, the signal in the Chicago metro became full quieting.

But if WHFB Benton Harbor 1060 goes IBOC, we WILL hear the upper IBOC sideband intermodulating with it.
Well, I won't, because I can't understand Polish, Serbian, Chechnian, etc.

There is too much steel in Manhattan for ANY AM to power its way through the whole thing.

Only the side (of Manhattan) toward the toward the station desired will have reliable coverage.

This is the scenario where no additional interference is permissable.

Cal is pointing out that despite "protected" contours, signals are often viable and listenable.

When IBOC is added in such areas, many more people lose real use of their radios than benefit from HD reception.

Who's to say that such listeners should be cut off? I know I never gave ibiquity the go-ahead to curtail my choices.

I would rather have analog AM pirates run unfettered than have HD noise splattering the AM.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Could you list, specifically the stations, which were once listenable in Manhattan and are no longer listenable? I'd really like to see the list so I can check them myself. By the way, I've read elsewhere and I will restate here, if you think your station or one you used to be able to listen to on a regular basis prior to IBOC is being interfered with, why not get the FCC involved? All it takes is a letter. Just one side note here. I used to be able to listen to WGY on a regular basis when WNYC was on 830 Khz. WGY hasn't been audible here since the WNYC move and that had nothing to do with IBOC.

 

[Chuck]

I will restate here, if you think your station or one you used to be able to listen to on a regular basis prior to IBOC is being interfered with, why not get the FCC involved?

And I will state (again) that if the alleged interference is beyond the stations Protected Contour, you are out of luck. Per FCC rules, you are not guaranteed anything past that point and have NO LEGAL RECOURSE. I think you will find that most IBOC interference happens beyond the damaged station's Protected Contour, unless a station is running out of spec.

The problem is many stations do have listeners past their Protected Contour, even though they have no legal rights to those listeners.

 

[R.F. Burns]

I will restate here, if you think your station or one you used to be able to listen to on a regular basis prior to IBOC is being interfered with, why not get the FCC involved?

And I will state (again) that if the alleged interference is beyond the stations Protected Contour, you are out of luck. Per FCC rules, you are not guaranteed anything past that point and have NO LEGAL RECOURSE. I think you will find that most IBOC interference happens beyond the damaged station's Protected Contour, unless a station is running out of spec.

The problem is many stations do have listeners past their Protected Contour, even though they have no legal rights to those listeners.





Then I am sorry to say they are out of luck. Let's draw some parallels here. Officer, why did you pull me over when I travel this route every day at 80 MPH and I have never been stopped before. I need to go that speed to get to work on time. How about this one; Sure I am operating without a license but I'm not really causing interference and it's the only place you can here Lutonian lullaby’s in this part of the country. While this all may be true, it holds no water legally and we are a country of laws. Sorry if I don't sound sympathetic.

 

[calstymes]

uit

R.F. Burns asked:

Could you list, specifically the stations, which were once listenable in Manhattan and are no longer listenable?

I am not talking about stations in Manhattan that are no longer listenable due to IBOC. I said that on the west side of Manhattan I have a big problem decoding IBOC. What I originally said about adjacent channel interference has nothing to do with that problem or with listening to radio IN NYC. To repeat:

I am saying that there are several smaller AM stations in shadow areas surrounding large metropolitan areas (including NYC) that are being interfered with by IBOC signals on the higher power AM stations in regions where they formerly had no problems. These are regions in which these stations were formerly able to sell advertising time and are no longer able to because they can no longer be heard there. Are these regions (strictly speaking) protected by "primary coverage"? I don't know. But there are legal actions pending over several of these interference cases and you WILL start to hear about them.

By "primary coverage", I MEANT "protected contour". I am not good with legal broadcasting terms. I am not talking about Manhattan. I am talking about areas AROUND Manhattan where smaller stations were formerly heard that can no longer be heard when IBOC is on at a high power station on an adjacent AM channel.

Tom Wells thankfully clarified:

Cal is pointing out that despite "protected" contours, signals are often viable and listenable.

When IBOC is added in such areas, many more people lose real use of their radios than benefit from HD reception.

Who's to say that such listeners should be cut off? I know I never gave ibiquity the go-ahead to curtail my choices.

I would rather have analog AM pirates run unfettered than have HD noise splattering the AM.

Thank you! Like I have said before, my radio was working in the suburbs until iBiQuity decided to break it for me!

I know R.F. Burns is confused at this point. Yes, I listen to radio both IN and OUT of the NYC.

And Chuck further clarified:

And I will state (again) that if the alleged interference is beyond the stations Protected Contour, you are out of luck. Per FCC rules, you are not guaranteed anything past that point and have NO LEGAL RECOURSE. I think you will find that most IBOC interference happens beyond the damaged station's Protected Contour, unless a station is running out of spec.

Isn't that lovely?

The problem is many stations do have listeners past their Protected Contour, even though they have no legal rights to those listeners.

Too bad for them, eh?

 

[R.F. Burns]

Re: uit

R.F. Burns asked:

Could you list, specifically the stations, which were once listenable in Manhattan and are no longer listenable?

I am not talking about stations in Manhattan that are no longer listenable due to IBOC. I said that on the west side of Manhattan I have a big problem decoding IBOC. What I originally said about adjacent channel interference has nothing to do with that problem or with listening to radio IN NYC. To repeat:


By "primary coverage", I MEANT "protected contour". I am not good with legal broadcasting terms. I am not talking about Manhattan. I am talking about areas AROUND Manhattan where smaller stations were formerly heard that can no longer be heard when IBOC is on at a high power station on an adjacent AM channel.

Tom Wells thankfully clarified:

Cal is pointing out that despite "protected" contours, signals are often viable and listenable.

I am saying that there are several smaller AM stations in shadow areas surrounding large metropolitan areas (including NYC) that are being interfered with by IBOC signals on the higher power AM stations in regions where they formerly had no problems. These are regions in which these stations were formerly able to sell advertising time and are no longer able to because they can no longer be heard there. Are these regions (strictly speaking) protected by "primary coverage"? I don't know. But there are legal actions pending over several of these interference cases and you WILL start to hear about them.

NYC is unlike most urbn environments. There are more high powered radio stations in very crowded RF spectrum than in any other place on earth. As for area stations suffering IBOC interference, if these IBOC signals are in any way interfering with legally operating facilities a letter to the FCC will resolve this problem. I don't know of any suburban station which was at one time audible in Manhattan or its vacinity which is no longer listenable due to IBOC. I can receive 740 from the island, located between 2 IBOC facilities cleanly and they're on long island. Let's see who's being effected now, no one on 640, 650, 680 or 690 in the NYC metro area. Same goes for 750, 760, 780 and 790. 800 is a Conneticut station with no NYC penetration. *60, 870 890 & 900 are also frequencies where no NY area station exists. 850 WREF isn't a viable NY radio station and WRKL at 910 is barely audible in NY and always has had a relatively weak signal in Manhattan. Can you give me some call letters to work with so I can see exemples of this intereference myself?



Funny to hear you say that you can't deocode the IBOC signal on the west side. Last year I brough my B.A. into our building (A major BC facility on the west side) and inside the shielded building I was able to listen to WOR, WNYC AM(They were IBOC at the time) and WADO without any of out locally generated noise (computers etc) which made analogue listening annoying at best. You told me that you have two bad receptors. Could it be that is where your problems lie, not with the technology?

"Too bad for them, eh"

What wil you have me say here? The AM BCB is in deep trouble and has to do something to improve it's sound. None of this wide band AM mono stuff or AM stereo nonsense will work in the real world. What is so difficult to understand here? If the IBOC stations are interfering with stations within thier licensed contour, contact the commision about it, otherwise complaining on boards like this does nothing.

 

[Chuck]

Re: uit

What is so difficult to understand here? If the IBOC stations are interfering with stations within thier licensed contour, contact the commision about it, otherwise complaining on boards like this does nothing.

No, but it points out the huge flaw in the technology.

As Tom Wells pointed out, IBOC, especially on AM, is taking away something from listeners that they previously had. Simply put, it's a way thin the herd. If you are a large broadcaster who chooses to participate in this, it's wonderful. If you are a small broadcaster, all you get is the dirty end of the stick.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Re: uit

What is so difficult to understand here? If the IBOC stations are interfering with stations within thier licensed contour, contact the commision about it, otherwise complaining on boards like this does nothing.

No, but it points out the huge flaw in the technology.

As Tom Wells pointed out, IBOC, especially on AM, is taking away something from listeners that they previously had. Simply put, it's a way thin the herd. If you are a large broadcaster who chooses to participate in this, it's wonderful. If you are a small broadcaster, all you get is the dirty end of the stick.





I can't speak for other areas, but in NY we don't have those issues. Please tell me which stations by call letters are losing out to IBOC on AM. So far I read allegations but no specific instances. Please, provide me with call letters, PLEASE.

 

[calstymes]

R.F. Burns asked:

What is so difficult to understand here? If the IBOC stations are interfering with stations within thier licensed contour, contact the commision about it, otherwise complaining on boards like this does nothing.

To which Chuck replied:

No, but it points out the huge flaw in the technology.

As Tom Wells pointed out, IBOC, especially on AM, is taking away something from listeners that they previously had. Simply put, it's a way thin the herd. If you are a large broadcaster who chooses to participate in this, it's wonderful. If you are a small broadcaster, all you get is the dirty end of the stick.

To which R.F. Burns insisted:

I can't speak for other areas, but in NY we don't have those issues. Please tell me which stations by call letters are losing out to IBOC on AM. So far I read allegations but no specific instances. Please, provide me with call letters, PLEASE.

Yes in NY we DO have these issues! Unfortunately, I can't give you call signs of these stations or individuals to contact because up until now this is "privleged" information that the public does not {yet} know about. In other words, obviously I know something that you don't, and if I were to divulge any MORE information about this, SOMEBODY would get in trouble. Maybe me. Get it?

But, if you are REALLY interested in this issue (which I suspect you are not although you are apparently from the NYC area so you might actually enjoy this exercise), here is what you can do:

1) Divide a clean sheet of paper into four columns, headed: AM IBOC station, Frequency, 30 KHz. below, 30 KHz. above.

2) In column one, list the major 50 KW AM radio stations in NYC that are running IBOC.

3) In column two, write down list the frequencies next to each station.

4) Now within a radius out from Manhattan of about 60 miles, list every station that you can find which is within 30 KHz. (below and above) of each of the 50 KW flame throwers that are running IBOC.

5) One by one, try and contact their engineering departments and if you are lucky enough to speak to anyone, ask them if they are experiencing any problems because of their adjacent channel 50 KW big guy that is running IBOC.

6) Report your findings back here. I suspect that they will startle you (since you obviously think that nothing is wrong).