HD-AM Incompatible-Retro View

[SUPERCASTER]

Here is a partial, short list of why AM HD is incompatible with analog, was misrepresented, and is therefore defective:
http://beradio.com/mag/radio_readers_speak/

 

[DoogieDown1]

I like how John points out that most recent broadcast advances have been engineered to be backwards compatible. Isn't that a rather modest request of any technical advancement?

I'm pretty disappointed in iBiquity for failing us there.

Before catching the radio bug and changing majors, I spent a year as an undergrad Engineering student. I learned a lot about problem solving in that year (and about how to approach problems from many different angles). Drawing from that experience, I honestly don't know how iBiquity decided that it has solved the problem of digital AM with its IBOC offering. Very puzzling.

Running with that thought: HD Radio on AM wouldn't rub nearly as many people the wrong way if it didn't hurt analog signals.

In fact, a bunch of you folks who are always fighting about HD... would probably be on the same side... if these new digital AM signals weren't hammering the analog. Everyone could upgrade--or NOT--at their own pace. And everyone's radio could still be made to produce quality sound.

Man, that would be nice.

 

[Tom Wells]

Amen to all points made in the beradio column, and those made by DoogieDown1.

I would have no complaint at all if ibiquity had the sense to do this on the FM only, where it is workable.
In fact, I hear degradation on FM when analog SCA is used, but don't seem to detect detriment from IBOC.
However, WFMT FM in Chicago decided not to even try HD, after an experiment with SCA that more or less enraged listeners, so they must
have decided to be extra cautious, or they actually do hear detriment.

It would seem ibiquity has no engineers with a "classic" analog radio background, or they would respect the AM service.
As it is, they remind me of "someone who knows just enough to be dangerous".

Or worse, they wish to "thin the herd" maliciously.

 

[dbdigital]

Here is a partial, short list of why AM HD is incompatible with analog, was misrepresented, and is therefore defective:
http://beradio.com/mag/radio_readers_speak/

Fascinating letter. As the writer observed there are many noise reduction strategies available to make AM stereo sound even better than it does. It's a shame that AMS was never allowed to grow as a technology.

Having said that, I do think it is very interesting that many (if not all) HD-Radios can decode AM stereo, such as the Sangean HDT-1:

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0051/t.1571.html

Could it be that some CE manufacturers have doubts about HD-AM's future or just simply accommodating the hundreds of AM stations that are broadcasting in stereo? At any rate, AM stereo is a very viable, low cost way for an AM station to improve its sound now, without harming their neighbor's signal, reducing their coverage or rendering their listener's radios obsolete or unlistenable.

Apparently some CE manufacturers agree.

db

 

[SUPERCASTER]

dbdigital said:

I do think it is very interesting that many (if not all) HD-Radios can decode AM stereo, such as the Sangean HDT-1:

Sangean reps. have clearly said that the HDT-1 does NOT decode Motorola C-Quam.
I can not provide the link because it is on another BBS, and would likely be deleted.

 

[dbdigital]

dbdigital said:

I do think it is very interesting that many (if not all) HD-Radios can decode AM stereo, such as the Sangean HDT-1:

Sangean reps. have clearly said that the HDT-1 does NOT decode Motorola C-Quam.
I can not provide the link because it is on another BBS, and would likely be deleted.

Interesting. Here's the line from the Radio World review by Jim Somich that says it:

"As a bonus, the HDT1 will decode C-Quam AM stereo, but there is no indication of this on the panel."

Also I believe Bill Norman has a Sangean tuner for his AMS station and he provided an MP3 which proved that it can process C-Quam stereo. So I don't know what or who to believe on this matter.

db

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I would have no complaint at all if ibiquity had the sense to do this on the FM only, where it is workable.

I would. It slops as much hash on adjacent frequencies on the FM band as it does on the AM band, making 1st adjacents equally hard to receive.

I would have no problems at all with digital if it stayed within the existing channels - and not jam 1st adjacents. Keep your digital slop in band - IN CHANNEL. If I owned a 1st adjacent station and lost audience to this nonsense - I'd pay my jammer a little visit. And I guarantee they'd keep their ___ off my station afterwards!

 

[EasyPeazy]

I would. It slops as much hash on adjacent frequencies on the FM band as it does on the AM band, making 1st adjacents equally hard to receive.

I would have no problems at all with digital if it stayed within the existing channels - and not jam 1st adjacents. Keep your digital slop in band - IN CHANNEL. If I owned a 1st adjacent station and lost audience to this nonsense - I'd pay my jammer a little visit. And I guarantee they'd keep their ___ off my station afterwards!

Earth to rbrucecarter5 - not everybody listens to radio using a deep fringe antenna. Not everyone is concerned with listening to KMKI from 300 miles away. Apparently, not too many people are concerned with listening to it locally either, but I digress...

Most people listen to local radio. Radio that originates from the town they're in at that time. Take a look at the 12+ numbers from Dallas. See any out of market signals listed? Take a look at the numbers from your hometown. See anything from out of town listed?

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Finished insulting me yet? fine. Take a look at the population density of the western part of the country, number of persons per square mile. Multiply it by the number of square miles, be sure to take out metro areas and people within 50 miles of the metro areas.

You are left with tens of millions of people. You just insulted them all. Who knows what combination of first adjacents / interference problems exist out there? I sure don't know all of them. So for you to make a blanket statement about people not caring about first adjacents, or AM stations from hundreds of miles away - that reveals a bias on your part for listeners in cities.

Not everybody lives in a city, cares to live in a city, can live in a city, etc. It is very arrogant of station owners in metro areas to dictate massive interference to a sizable portion of the US population.

Interference is unacceptable. The backlash WILL come from Western states, and it WILL be massive. Even the sparsely settled states still get two US Senators each. And add up the Western states, and you will get a majority in the Senate.

 

[DoogieDown1]

Finished insulting me yet? fine.

Yes, that was an insulting response, Bruce.

I don't understand the contempt for DXers from IBOC advocates. To me, you can defend IBOC and say, "Hey, sorry your DXing hobby is taking a hit," and leave it at that. But IBOC advocates also show you the back of their hands and seem gleeful that they're taking a fun hobby away from you. Very weird and hateful... and unattractive in human terms.

As far as Arbitron goes, you would have to look in the Waco book, or the Wichita Falls book, or the Amarillo book to see if KLIF, WBAP, KMKI, etc. show up. You wouldn't look in the Dallas books for that info. I think WBAP shows up all over the place. When I worked in Austin in the early 90's, I think I saw WBAP show up down there. WOAI is another Texas station that leaks into everybody's books.

People meters will make this even more pronounced, I bet. All that said, I don't know that station's ever sell those outside market numbers. So many advertisers are just interested in the core market. (But maybe a station like WOAI or WBAP can boast about its outside numbers to its big national adverstisers... I don't know.)

It would take a massive grass roots movement to turn the FCC's attention to the public service aspect of DXing. Even then, the money and lobbying behind Corporate Radio might trump it.

 

[EasyPeazy]

Finished insulting me yet? fine.

Yes, that was an insulting response, Bruce.

I don't understand the contempt for DXers from IBOC advocates. To me, you can defend IBOC and say, "Hey, sorry your DXing hobby is taking a hit," and leave it at that. But IBOC advocates also show you the back of their hands and seem gleeful that they're taking a fun hobby away from you. Very weird and hateful... and unattractive in human terms.

As far as Arbitron goes, you would have to look in the Waco book, or the Wichita Falls book, or the Amarillo book to see if KLIF, WBAP, KMKI, etc. show up. You wouldn't look in the Dallas books for that info. I think WBAP shows up all over the place. When I worked in Austin in the early 90's, I think I saw WBAP show up down there. WOAI is another Texas station that leaks into everybody's books.

People meters will make this even more pronounced, I bet. All that said, I don't know that station's ever sell those outside market numbers. So many advertisers are just interested in the core market. (But maybe a station like WOAI or WBAP can boast about its outside numbers to its big national adverstisers... I don't know.)

It would take a massive grass roots movement to turn the FCC's attention to the public service aspect of DXing. Even then, the money and lobbying behind Corporate Radio might trump it.

Money and lobbying would trump it? How about interest?

DXing except as a hobby is a concept whose time has passed. There is simply no need for it today. Even if you live in an area where there are no local signals whatsoever (and those are rare) you still have options in XM and Sirius.

I liken DXing to a hobby of mine - photography. I ran the darkroom for my high school yearbook for three years and loved every minute of it. Mixing the chemicals, loading the development canisters, exposing the paper, setting the print, etc. It was a lot of fun.

These days, the yearbook staff at my old high school shoots digitally. Their darkroom is digital - a computer program - and it produces better results than I ever could.

Am I going to whine about that? Of course not, and I wouldn't trade my digital SLR for a film camera either.

The problem with most of the DXers here is they're every bit as insulting as my "deep fringe" remark above. Their remarks often go way beyond simply debating the technology. The programming on HD channels is routinely slammed here by people who admit to never having heard it. Did you ever stop to think that this is a site called "Radio-Info" and that some of the people programming those channels might be reading your remarks? Do you think they might be insulted?

To deny the public dozens of new programming choices in every market to maintain a hobby for very, very few people is greedy and selfish.

 

[DoogieDown1]

The problem with most of the DXers here is they're every bit as insulting as my "deep fringe" remark above.

You're right. The insults fly freely around here. I just thought you were a little thin-skinned with Bruce...

DXing except as a hobby is a concept whose time has passed. There is simply no need for it today. Even if you live in an area where there are no local signals whatsoever (and those are rare) you still have options in XM and Sirius.

I don't claim to know whether there's a "need." I only lived in a smallish-to-medium-sized town once (and for just 6 months), but it didn't seem to me that most of those people could afford to pay anything extra for radio services like XM or Sirius. So in general I'm sympathetic to Bruce's arguments.

I also think it's possible that Bruce's example of West Texas is accurate but not necessarily indicative of other sections of the country. I wouldn't be surprised if a good-sized population in West Texas splits its listening between local signals and the signals shooting out from the I-35 corridor (Dallas, Austin, San Antonio).

To deny the public dozens of new programming choices in every market to maintain a hobby for very, very few people is greedy and selfish.

I guess you're talking about FM only, since AM HD doesn't create new programming choices... except for maybe more music on the AM dial. I'm with you on FM, but I wish AM HD would go away. Or go back to the drawing board.

 

[EasyPeazy]

The problem with most of the DXers here is they're every bit as insulting as my "deep fringe" remark above.

You're right. The insults fly freely around here. I just thought you were a little thin-skinned with Bruce...

DXing except as a hobby is a concept whose time has passed. There is simply no need for it today. Even if you live in an area where there are no local signals whatsoever (and those are rare) you still have options in XM and Sirius.

I don't claim to know whether there's a "need." I only lived in a smallish-to-medium-sized town once (and for just 6 months), but it didn't seem to me that most of those people could afford to pay anything extra for radio services like XM or Sirius. So in general I'm sympathetic to Bruce's arguments.

I also think it's possible that Bruce's example of West Texas is accurate but not necessarily indicative of other sections of the country. I wouldn't be surprised if a good-sized population in West Texas splits its listening between local signals and the signals shooting out from the I-35 corridor (Dallas, Austin, San Antonio).

To deny the public dozens of new programming choices in every market to maintain a hobby for very, very few people is greedy and selfish.

I guess you're talking about FM only, since AM HD doesn't create new programming choices... except for maybe more music on the AM dial. I'm with you on FM, but I wish AM HD would go away. Or go back to the drawing board.

Well, being from West Texas (Amarillo is my hometown) I can tell you with absolute certainty that the overwhelming majority of people there do not listen to stations from Dallas. There is no need.

Amarillo has its own 10,000 watt news talk station - KGNC 710. It carries a lot of the popular syndicated programs - Rush, Art Bell, O'Reilly, etc. It also has a live, local morning show and another local late morning show. The station is 10,000 watts 24/7 and has a monster signal.

There's also KIXZ 940. It carries the syndicated stuff KGNC doesn't - Glenn Beck, Hannity, Savage, etc. Its 5,000 watt daytime signal and 1,000 watt nighttime signal cover a big chunk of the Texas Panhandle.

Sports is covered by two AMs - KPUR (ESPN Radio) and KZRK (Fox Sports Radio.)

On the FM side, every popular format is covered with a C or C1 FM. Amarillo has been known to produce a few heavy hitters in the talent department too. Probably the most famous Amarillo radio alum is Blair Garner. You might have heard of him: www.aftermidnite.com

Amarillo has over 30 radio stations. Given all that choice why would Amarilloans struggle to listen to Dallas stations?

The answer is they don't. Even people who grew up radio geeks like me.

 

[DoogieDown1]

The answer is they don't. Even people who grew up radio geeks like me.

So you grew up in Amarillo, and you didn't DX Dallas stations at all? Or not much?

 

[EasyPeazy]

The answer is they don't. Even people who grew up radio geeks like me.

So you grew up in Amarillo, and you didn't DX Dallas stations at all? Or not much?

At all. When I was a kid I was interested in two stations - KAKS-FM and KQIZ-FM. At the time they were both very decent mainstream CHRs.

 

[DoogieDown1]

At all.

There you have it. Bruce DXed all the time. And it didn't interest you at all.

No wonder you guys totally disagree here.

I grew up in Dallas and went to UT-Austin for college. So my DXing started in 1990 in Austin when I wanted to pull in decent sports talk. Back then my targets were KLIF and WBAP. I ran into quite a few sports geeks who DXed Randy Galloway's show (obviously he was on 820 then).

These days, a guy with my interests (who may have moved away from his fair burg) would probably just take advantage of Internet streaming.

But also... it may come down to interests. It sounds like you were a music guy. Someone today in West Texas can get all the FM music he needs, and he can get it locally. But if he's a Spurs fan, he may DX WOAI. Or if he's a Cowboys, Mavs, or Rangers fan, he may DX several Dallas options.

NPR is everywhere. Limbaugh is everywhere. So no need to DX certain types of programming...

 

[EasyPeazy]

At all.

There you have it. Bruce DXed all the time. And it didn't interest you at all.

No wonder you guys totally disagree here.

I grew up in Dallas and went to UT-Austin for college. So my DXing started in 1990 in Austin when I wanted to pull in decent sports talk. Back then my targets were KLIF and WBAP. I ran into quite a few sports geeks who DXed Randy Galloway's show (obviously he was on 820 then).

These days, a guy with my interests (who may have moved away from his fair burg) would probably just take advantage of Internet streaming.

But also... it may come down to interests. It sounds like you were a music guy. Someone today in West Texas can get all the FM music he needs, and he can get it locally. But if he's a Spurs fan, he may DX WOAI. Or if he's a Cowboys, Mavs, or Rangers fan, he may DX several Dallas options.

NPR is everywhere. Limbaugh is everywhere. So no need to DX certain types of programming...

I understand your point, but as you pointed out, with the advent of the internet and streaming you can listen to SpursRadio 1200 without the static you would get in Amarillo on a good night. Times have changed. You probably wouldn't be able to catch WOAI with any reliability in NYC, but these days a displaced Spurs fan can catch the game on the internet wherever he may be.

These days, I just don't think there are very many real world DXers. There are so many better ways to receive the programming you would be DXing.

I could personally care less about HD AM. I'm all about multicasting.

But my views on class D AMs probably wouldn't be too popular with DXers either.

 

[Chuck]

I could personally care less about HD AM. I'm all about multicasting.

If you owned or worked for an AM, you might have a different opinion. You are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

On FM, multicasting is a great concept, asuming you can come up with a business model to support it. Multicasting can be done cheaper and better by FMExtra, than it is with the Ibiquity scheme. It is simply a better and cheaper option.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I will admit - 40 years ago, there was more need for DX than there is today. 40 years ago, there was no internet, therefore no streaming. Listeners in West Texas were captive audiences putting up with whatever garbage the local stations cared to program. Amarillo had a really good top 40 on 1440 - it was pretty weak in Midland. Our local top-40 censored the music. They wouldn't play certain songs they considered controversial. It took them forever to get new music. If you got frustrated with them, they wouldn't be very responsive to listeners. Since everything else was country, spanish, or easy listening, it was DX or nothing.

One thing that concerns me - I am noticing the background noise on the AM band slowly increasing as more and more HD stations sign on the air. I am not talking about just 1st and 2nd adjacents, I am talking about the whole band. The HD sidebands seem to travel much farther than the analog audio. An example:WOAI is a tough catch in Dallas due to a local country station on 1190. But their upper sideband is very loud, very pronounced on 1210. Much more so than WOAI main programming even in the morning and late afternoon when a small amount of skywave boosts WOAI.

It used to be, the background noise on the AM band - away from noisy RF environments - was very distant audio and carriers mixing together at low levels. Now, it is IBOC hash. Increasing seemingly every day. If they ever let this loose at night, the whole band is going to be hosed, possibly worldwide.

Now go ahead and call me a DX'er whose is living in the past, but there is nothing outdated in my concerns about the workability of this system. Jamming the whole band will not do anybody any good.

 

[Ray22]

Along the same thread of "hating DXers": The IBOC FM and AM "interference" is helping to turn off the P1 listeners, the heavy time spent listeners, the very ones that HELP a radio station's ratings. Many of these P1's spend all day driving within city grade contours AND outside between cities. They are the very people that enjoy radio and have it on while driving for hours a day. These people invest in cars with decent radios and are driving through varying signal contours, in and out of the fringe of markets. IBOC is causing these people to leave for iPODs and satellite radio. For these people, IBOC is competing against interference free sat. radio (maybe some signal dropouts...but no interference).
I lost count of the people I know that listen in a car while working all day, heavy P1's, that NO LONGER listen at all to radio since they installed satellite radio. IMHO.