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HD digital FM radio creates noise, interference and poor quality.

S

SuperSound

In addition to HD digital FM and AM being off channel, out of band, all over the band, jamming other stations, and having an extremely poor coverage area, HD reception is NOISY!
Here is the latest link and spectum analysis from an independent source:
http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
On AM and FM, if you can't see the transmitting tower, you probably can't get a steady, reliable HD digital radio signal!
HD radio is an expensive, defective system, providing little and destroying much.
http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by SuperSound on 01/15/06 07:28 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Conclusion reached....

> In addition to HD digital FM and AM being off channel, out
> of band, all over the band, jamming other stations, and
> having an extremely poor coverage area, HD reception is
> NOISY!

Armed with NO personal experience, only with the constant
kvetching about IBOC, I have reached the inevitable conclusion:

IBOC is part of a vast conspiracy.

It's intended to achieve two purposes:

1. Drive the entire audience away from terrestrial radio and into
the arms of the greedy (watch the prices rise when AM/FM are gone)
satellitel providers.

2. Discourage anyone from wanting to own an AM or FM, taking
stations dark, and allowing Big Government to auction the
vacated spectrum to the highest bidders whether foreign or
domestic.

Now, who can challenge THAT!<P ID="signature">______________
"environmentalism is collectivism in drag."
--George Will (or won't)</P>
 
Being the devil's advocate...

Does the public really notice the IBOC interference? I bet they wouldn't know the difference between amp gain white noise and IBOC hiss.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
CAN you prove it??

> In addition to HD digital FM and AM being off channel, out
> of band, all over the band, jamming other stations, and
> having an extremely poor coverage area, HD reception is
> NOISY!
> Here is the latest link and spectum analysis from an
> independent source:
> http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
> On AM and FM, if you can't see the transmitting tower, you
> probably can't get a steady, reliable HD digital radio
> signal!
> HD radio is an expensive, defective system, providing little
> and destroying much.
> http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com
>
Rich,

This is my last attempt! You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. I'm NOT an IBOC proponent so I'm not trying to argue with you, but.....
Can you give evidence, using a spectrum analyzer, from an operational FM transmitter's RF sample, that IBOC causes occupied bandwith to exceed 200 khz?
One transmitter, properly setup, using the Ibiquity IBOC digital system, measured using the RF sample from the PA cavity. Is there proof that a properly operational IBOC FM transmission system is in violation of FCC rules and regulations?
 
Re: Conclusion reached....

> > In addition to HD digital FM and AM being off channel, out
>
> > of band, all over the band, jamming other stations, and
> > having an extremely poor coverage area, HD reception is
> > NOISY!
>
> Armed with NO personal experience, only with the constant
> kvetching about IBOC, I have reached the inevitable
> conclusion:
>
> IBOC is part of a vast conspiracy.
>
> It's intended to achieve two purposes:
>
> 1. Drive the entire audience away from terrestrial radio
> and into
> the arms of the greedy (watch the prices rise when AM/FM are
> gone)
> satellitel providers.
>
> 2. Discourage anyone from wanting to own an AM or FM,
> taking
> stations dark, and allowing Big Government to auction the
> vacated spectrum to the highest bidders whether foreign or
> domestic.
>
> Now, who can challenge THAT!
>

Sorry Les,

I can certainly challenge that!!

1. Deregulation of ownership and the overturning of the Fairness Doctrine, both under Ronnie Reagan already has driven (nearly) the entire audience away and into the arms of the greedy music industry. The time line coincides with the birth of CD's and the proliferation of high quality car audio playback systems including CD changers. All before iPods and satellite radio (except in Canada, where satellite radio has been in place since the 80's, albeit under a different architecture and more because of terrestrial coverage limitations than anything else).

2. The Telecommunications Reform Act of 1996 is what really broke the back of Mom and Pop radio in the U.S. Further deregulation of ownership limitations were already happening, and the elimination of the comparative hearing process, as flawed as it was, closed the door on radio ownership for anyone but the wealthiest (companies) by making every bandwidth allocation a deepest pockets contest.

HD is just showcasing the level of lunacy that prevails in the boardrooms of the biggest players. The government has become complacent to do whatever these guys want. The failure of the government to take a stand with AM stereo was a precursor of this kind of (lack) behavior.

Happy New Year.

Andy<P ID="signature">______________
Electricity is really just organized lightning.
~George Carlin</P>
 
The MISinformation continues

> In addition to HD digital FM and AM being off channel, out
> of band, all over the band, jamming other stations, and
> having an extremely poor coverage area, HD reception is
> NOISY!
> Here is the latest link and spectum analysis from an
> independent source:
> http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
> On AM and FM, if you can't see the transmitting tower, you
> probably can't get a steady, reliable HD digital radio
> signal!
> HD radio is an expensive, defective system, providing little
> and destroying much.
> http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com
>

Suggestion....
Get to know how the system operates before you go rambling on with idiotic statements. Do some real life testing yourself instead of spreading MISinformation, OK? (why people feel the need to quote BLOGS is beyond me, do you really think they are credible sources of information????)

Have you ever heard IBOC noice on an FM? I have been searching for an instance and have yet to hear it.

I am not a huge fan of the way IBOC operates, but prividing people with the wrong information is not the right way to go. Educate yourself first!
 
> In addition to HD digital FM and AM being off channel, out
> of band, all over the band, jamming other stations, and
> having an extremely poor coverage area, HD reception is
> NOISY!
> Here is the latest link and spectum analysis from an
> independent source:
> http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
> On AM and FM, if you can't see the transmitting tower, you
> probably can't get a steady, reliable HD digital radio
> signal!
> HD radio is an expensive, defective system, providing little
> and destroying much.
> http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com
>

I'd still like to see some substantial proof. You've been asked for some, and have provided nothing but rhetoric. An analyzer shot of one station in one market does not count as conclusive evidence.

In short you make a lot of noise without providing any evidence.

How about this: why don't you provide us with your background? If you are going to discredit something, you should provide some of your credentials.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
And one more thing...

> In addition to HD digital FM and AM being off channel, out
> of band, all over the band, jamming other stations, and
> having an extremely poor coverage area, HD reception is
> NOISY!
> Here is the latest link and spectum analysis from an
> independent source:
> http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
> On AM and FM, if you can't see the transmitting tower, you
> probably can't get a steady, reliable HD digital radio
> signal!
> HD radio is an expensive, defective system, providing little
> and destroying much.
> http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com
>


Also, how many times to you plan on coming here and say the same thing over and over? This conversation is no different than the one that dropped off the page. Same links and everything.

If this is your plan, you may want to re-think.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
Re: The MISimformation continues

> Have you ever heard IBOC noice on an FM? I have been
> searching for an instance and have yet to hear it.

I don't know what you're using for an FM receiver, but I have CERTAINLY heard the hash on FM. It completely wipes out the adjacent frequencies (96.9's kills 97.1 and 96.7). Before IBOC was installed, I was able to hear stations weakly on those frequencies.

Also, yesterday I was able to see for myself what the IBOC looks like on a spectrum analyzer. I wish I had taken some pictures of that to show you, but there are probably some out there on the internet somewhere else.

I'm kind of surprised that seeing that you're a ham, that you have no appreciation for DXing. But I guess you have never DXed the broadcast band.
 
Re: The MISimformation continues

>
I really dislike the way the fm system could possibly cause interface to people that live between two metropolitan areas. Between chicago and milwaukee or between Chicago and Rockford, IL. The residents in these areas must be affected by this. I would like to know more about that. I know that the broadcasters don't sell to those areas so why would they care, but don't people deserve the ability to hear free over the air radio? It seems to me that these people are the one's that will suffer the most. These people are not DX'ers they just are trying to listen.
 
Aha!!

IBOC never has and never will cause any noise as long as you run your rig with only the filaments on...no plate=no noise.

---End of Message---
 
Re: Aha!!

I've come up with a method for solid state xmtrs. The trick is to leave the back door open...the noise is present when the high voltage contactors click, but it's not present when you leave the door open and they don't click. Must be something in the interlocks causing the IBOC bleed.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
Re: CAN you prove it??-I ALREADY HAVE!

I don't know how often I have to keep repeating myself.
Once again, here is the spectrum analyzer proof that HD digital radio FM occupies over 400 kHz and not the 200 kHz you falsely claim:
http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
Or try this:
http://www.contelec.com/fm_white_papers.php
Or this:
http://www.tvhandbook.com/support/pdf_files/audio/Chapter2_3.pdf
Or this:
http://www.ibiquity.com/technology/pdf/Conversion_Requirements.pdf

FMeXtra has nothing to do with Leonard Kahn. You were wrong again!
Here is the link:
http://www.dreinc.com/

YOU CAN LEAD SOME HORSES TO WATER, BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM DRINK!

Out of politeness for the other bulletin board forum members, I will leave the horse analogy there and let them draw their own conclusions.




> > In addition to HD digital FM and AM being off channel, out
>
> > of band, all over the band, jamming other stations, and
> > having an extremely poor coverage area, HD reception is
> > NOISY!
> > Here is the latest link and spectum analysis from an
> > independent source:
> > http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
> > On AM and FM, if you can't see the transmitting tower, you
>
> > probably can't get a steady, reliable HD digital radio
> > signal!
> > HD radio is an expensive, defective system, providing
> little
> > and destroying much.
> > http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com
> >
> Rich,
>
> This is my last attempt! You are entitled to your opinion
> and I respect that. I'm NOT an IBOC proponent so I'm not
> trying to argue with you, but.....
> Can you give evidence, using a spectrum analyzer, from an
> operational FM transmitter's RF sample, that IBOC causes
> occupied bandwith to exceed 200 khz?
> One transmitter, properly setup, using the Ibiquity IBOC
> digital system, measured using the RF sample from the PA
> cavity. Is there proof that a properly operational IBOC FM
> transmission system is in violation of FCC rules and
> regulations?
>
 
Re: The MISimformation continues

> > Have you ever heard IBOC noice on an FM? I have been
> > searching for an instance and have yet to hear it.
>

You make a lot of assumptions here.....

> I don't know what you're using for an FM receiver, but I
> have CERTAINLY heard the hash on FM. It completely wipes out
> the adjacent frequencies (96.9's kills 97.1 and 96.7).
> Before IBOC was installed, I was able to hear stations
> weakly on those frequencies.
>

I have used multiple recivers. Yes I do hear the IBOC signal on the sides. Your key word was WEAKLY. As hard as it may seem, you are not in their coverage area. Therefore not protected. These are the rules of the FCC. Not mine.

Personally, I have not had problems receiving stations close to IBOC stations. Once there was a station that lost its analog tranmsitter. The HD Radio transmitter was still running. I was able to DX ON FREQUENCY of that station and was getting a station 100+ miles away. You have to remember that the IBOC signal is MUCH LOWER POWER than the analog signal.

> Also, yesterday I was able to see for myself what the IBOC
> looks like on a spectrum analyzer. I wish I had taken some
> pictures of that to show you, but there are probably some
> out there on the internet somewhere else.
>

I too have seen spctrum analzer plots as I have installed a few tranmsitters. All are within the FCC guidelines. It is not up to me to decide what those guidelines are, but to ensure that our stations are within specs.

> I'm kind of surprised that seeing that you're a ham, that
> you have no appreciation for DXing. But I guess you have
> never DXed the broadcast band.
>

I DX the broadcast bands all of the time! Are you kidding??? (I have even run a few DX tests for DXers) This is not about DXing, but about broadcasting. I am sure when radio went from morse code to AM Phone, the DXers were all up in arms about how broad the signals were and that they were stepping all over the morse stations. Well perhpas this is a new way to DX. Have you thought about DXing HD signals? The HDTV folks are doing that now without much complaining. I have started DXing HD signals now in addition to analog. Is it more of a challenge? Heck ya! But isnt that the fun of it all? The Challenge?

Tweak your equipment and especially your antennas. Make them more directional.
 
Re: CAN you prove it??-I ALREADY HAVE!

I dont know how often you THINK you "need" to repeat yourself either.

It is so obvious that you:
A) have no first hand knowledge of HD Radio
B) never installed said system
C) are just reading blogs and believing all you read as opposed to gaining an understanding yourself.

Your original post claimed ALL sorts of things... Like "Jumps all over the band", is "off channel", "creates distortion" ya da ya da.....

If you look at your own links, and the spectrum analyzers, you will see an IBOC mask. ALL of the analyzer shots are within FCC guidelines.

Questions, do you have an HD receiver? Why are you so against HD Radio? Are you getting interference to a station you like to listen to? What is your motivation here?

And as YOU said... you can lead horses.......

> I don't know how often I have to keep repeating myself.
> Once again, here is the spectrum analyzer proof that HD
> digital radio FM occupies over 400 kHz and not the 200 kHz
> you falsely claim:
> http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
> Or try this:
> http://www.contelec.com/fm_white_papers.php
> Or this:
http> ://www.tvhandbook.com/support/pdf_files/audio/Chapter2_3.pdf
>
> Or this:
http:/> /www.ibiquity.com/technology/pdf/Conversion_Requirements.pdf
>
>
> FMeXtra has nothing to do with Leonard Kahn. You were wrong
> again!
> Here is the link:
> http://www.dreinc.com/
>
> YOU CAN LEAD SOME HORSES TO WATER, BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM
> DRINK!
>
> Out of politeness for the other bulletin board forum
> members, I will leave the horse analogy there and let them
> draw their own conclusions.
>
>
>
>
> > > In addition to HD digital FM and AM being off channel,
> out
> >
> > > of band, all over the band, jamming other stations, and
> > > having an extremely poor coverage area, HD reception is
> > > NOISY!
> > > Here is the latest link and spectum analysis from an
> > > independent source:
> > > http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
> > > On AM and FM, if you can't see the transmitting tower,
> you
> >
> > > probably can't get a steady, reliable HD digital radio
> > > signal!
> > > HD radio is an expensive, defective system, providing
> > little
> > > and destroying much.
> > > http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com
> > >
> > Rich,
> >
> > This is my last attempt! You are entitled to your opinion
> > and I respect that. I'm NOT an IBOC proponent so I'm not
> > trying to argue with you, but.....
> > Can you give evidence, using a spectrum analyzer, from an
> > operational FM transmitter's RF sample, that IBOC causes
> > occupied bandwith to exceed 200 khz?
> > One transmitter, properly setup, using the Ibiquity IBOC
> > digital system, measured using the RF sample from the PA
> > cavity. Is there proof that a properly operational IBOC FM
>
> > transmission system is in violation of FCC rules and
> > regulations?
> >
>
 
You Have Proved Nothing!!!!

>
Do/can you understand what I am asking of you?
Please do NOT post YOUR blog as a response to my challenge. And the spec display does not satisfy my request so please stop repeating yourself on that.
Occupation of 400 khz IS A VIOLATION OF FCC RULES AND REGS. HOW LOUD DO I HAVE TO SHOUT THIS IN YOUR EAR?????
If this were true, and the examples you keep providing DO NOT prove this, why would the FCC allow it?
Show me ONE STATION, running IBOC correctly,without OTHER stations in the mix, on a spectrum analyzer display, exceeding the 200 Khz FM channel allottment.
My guess is, you can't provide ANY proof!


I don't know how often I have to keep repeating myself.
> Once again, here is the spectrum analyzer proof that HD
> digital radio FM occupies over 400 kHz and not the 200 kHz
> you falsely claim:
> http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
> Or try this:
> http://www.contelec.com/fm_white_papers.php
> Or this:
http> ://www.tvhandbook.com/support/pdf_files/audio/Chapter2_3.pdf
>
> Or this:
http:/> /www.ibiquity.com/technology/pdf/Conversion_Requirements.pdf
>
>
> FMeXtra has nothing to do with Leonard Kahn. You were wrong
> again!
> Here is the link:
> http://www.dreinc.com/
>
> YOU CAN LEAD SOME HORSES TO WATER, BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM
> DRINK!
>
> Out of politeness for the other bulletin board forum
> members, I will leave the horse analogy there and let them
> draw their own conclusions.
>
>
>
>
> > > In addition to HD digital FM and AM being off channel,
> out
> >
> > > of band, all over the band, jamming other stations, and
> > > having an extremely poor coverage area, HD reception is
> > > NOISY!
> > > Here is the latest link and spectum analysis from an
> > > independent source:
> > > http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
> > > On AM and FM, if you can't see the transmitting tower,
> you
> >
> > > probably can't get a steady, reliable HD digital radio
> > > signal!
> > > HD radio is an expensive, defective system, providing
> > little
> > > and destroying much.
> > > http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com
> > >
> > Rich,
> >
> > This is my last attempt! You are entitled to your opinion
> > and I respect that. I'm NOT an IBOC proponent so I'm not
> > trying to argue with you, but.....
> > Can you give evidence, using a spectrum analyzer, from an
> > operational FM transmitter's RF sample, that IBOC causes
> > occupied bandwith to exceed 200 khz?
> > One transmitter, properly setup, using the Ibiquity IBOC
> > digital system, measured using the RF sample from the PA
> > cavity. Is there proof that a properly operational IBOC FM
>
> > transmission system is in violation of FCC rules and
> > regulations?
> >
>
 
Re: The MISimformation continues

> >
> I really dislike the way the fm system could possibly cause
> interface to people that live between two metropolitan
> areas. Between chicago and milwaukee or between Chicago and
> Rockford, IL. The residents in these areas must be affected
> by this. I would like to know more about that. I know that
> the broadcasters don't sell to those areas so why would they
> care, but don't people deserve the ability to hear free over
> the air radio? It seems to me that these people are the
> one's that will suffer the most. These people are not
> DX'ers they just are trying to listen.
>

I live in Milwaukee, drive to Chicago often and have not had any troubles with receiving stations where I have in the past. In other words HD Radio has not effected those stations. And trust me, since I am a Dxer I am scanning the band constantly. And I am looking for instances where a HD signal would have over taken an analog signal.

See? This is exactly the part of MIS information I am talking about. And I am strictly talking about the FM band. AM HD is a different story (though it sounds GREAT!).
 
Re: The MISimformation continues

> I really dislike the way the fm system could possibly cause
> interface to people that live between two metropolitan
> areas. Between chicago and milwaukee or between Chicago and
> Rockford, IL. The residents in these areas must be affected
> by this.


I'm in Rockford and just yesterday drove between Chicago and Rockford... We had no problems and this is with the "el-Cheapo" Saturn radio that came with the car. In fact, the only time I've ever heard ANY problem with a station running IBOC is when I was literally under the tower site, of course, this could just have been normal overloading of the FM receiver since I was so close to the tower site.

-A<P ID="signature">______________

</P>
 
> In addition to HD digital FM and AM being off channel, out
> of band, all over the band, jamming other stations, and
> having an extremely poor coverage area, HD reception is
> NOISY!
> Here is the latest link and spectum analysis from an
> independent source:
> http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
> On AM and FM, if you can't see the transmitting tower, you
> probably can't get a steady, reliable HD digital radio
> signal!
> HD radio is an expensive, defective system, providing little
> and destroying much.
> http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com




Radio technology (Audio quality) seems to be going the way of the cell phone. I was talking to an engineer at Sprint and he tells me cell phones TODAY are crap. He said cell phones 12 years ago sounded pretty damn good.
<P ID="signature">______________
Lead, follow or get out of the way...

And remember, the early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

</P>
 
Re: The MISimformation continues

Thanks for the reception reports it will be interesting to see if anything is reported in these "in between" type areas in the future.
 
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