HD DIGITAL RADIO QUESTION

[OldChicago]

I understand that an FM radio station using IBOC digital can carry about 2 digital streams of programming along with the analog signal. I ask the question, IF THE ANALOG CARRIER WAS NOT THERE, how many streams of programming could a station fit onto one carrier. I know this is subject to bit/quality rate of each stream, so lets
assume all streams were at the same rate as the current 2 "side" programs are now.


Old Chicago

 

[amfmsw]

My understanding from RADIO WORLD articles, is that with analog, they can carry up to 6 additional stereo channels of programming, with degrading quality every time the bit rate is split. My guess would be NOT much more, with or with out analog.

They've pretty much settled on 2, or 5.1 surround, as the limit before it gets grainy sounding for music. BUT for speech? Who knows?

 

[Chuck]

They've pretty much settled on 2, or 5.1 surround, as the limit before it gets grainy sounding for music. BUT for speech? Who knows?

The funny thing is digital artifacting is much more noticeable on speech than it is on music. The reason is psychoacoustics. It seems that most people have a good idea in their mind what a human voice sounds like. It is fairly easy to be objective about the quality you hear and strange digital qualities on voice are very tiring to listen to. On the other hand, most people don't have a preconceived notion about what a particular piece of music sounds like. MP3's work on that theory. While 90% original information may be lost in the process, they do not discard all the highs and lows, so it still gives the impression of reasonable fidelity. What is usually missing is the detail in the music. It is easier to fool people with that. Who knows it there is a triangle “ding” at a particular point in a song? If you ever do an A-B comparison through the same decent loudspeakers, it is very interesting to notice what simply isn't there in the compressed format. It takes some pretty heavy duty mathematics to pull this off. I wish I'd though of it.

This doesn’t mean that some programming genius won’t attempt to cram multiple 16kbs voice streams on your radio. It remains to be seen how the public will accept it, but then again, people put up with disgusting audio quality on their digital cell phone. Boy do I miss those old analog phones…

 

[ElCheapo]

I understand that an FM radio station using IBOC digital can carry about 2 digital streams of programming along with the analog signal. I ask the question, IF THE ANALOG CARRIER WAS NOT THERE, how many streams of programming could a station fit onto one carrier. I know this is subject to bit/quality rate of each stream, so lets
assume all streams were at the same rate as the current 2 "side" programs are now.

At a meeting with some gentlemen from iBiquity the number given was 8.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I understand that an FM radio station using IBOC digital can carry about 2 digital streams of programming along with the analog signal. I ask the question, IF THE ANALOG CARRIER WAS NOT THERE, how many streams of programming could a station fit onto one carrier. I know this is subject to bit/quality rate of each stream, so lets
assume all streams were at the same rate as the current 2 "side" programs are now.

At a meeting with some gentlemen from iBiquity the number given was 8.

So can FM eXtra, at a stations full licensed power, without a new antenna or transmitter, or jamming adjacent channels.
www.dreinc.com
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,50184.msg363459.html#msg363459

 

[ElCheapo]

So can FM eXtra, at a stations full licensed power, without a new antenna or transmitter, or jamming adjacent channels.
www.dreinc.com
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,50184.msg363459.html#msg363459

Awesome! It's really a shame it was so late coming to the party. That battle has already been fought and iBiquity won.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

So can FM eXtra, at a stations full licensed power, without a new antenna or transmitter, or jamming adjacent channels.
www.dreinc.com
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,50184.msg363459.html#msg363459

Awesome! It's really a shame it was so late coming to the party. That battle has already been fought and iBiquity won.

I thought you said HD Radio was in it's infancy, just getting started. Now you say "That battle has already been fought and iBiquity won." I can't see how you can have your cake and eat it too.

 

[700WLW]

So can FM eXtra, at a stations full licensed power, without a new antenna or transmitter, or jamming adjacent channels.
www.dreinc.com
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,50184.msg363459.html#msg363459

Awesome! It's really a shame it was so late coming to the party. That battle has already been fought and iBiquity won.

The battle is FAR from won - there is virtually no public interest, or interest from car manufacturers !

 

[ElCheapo]

I thought you said HD Radio was in it's infancy, just getting started. Now you say "That battle has already been fought and iBiquity won." I can't see how you can have your cake and eat it too.

iBiquity won the broadcasters - that's the first step. HD is in its infancy, but iBiquity is so far ahead that no competing scheme can catch up.

With approximately $100,000,000 invested in HD buildouts, nobody is going to abandon HD. Certainly not to please a few DXers with a personal agenda that nobody cares about.

 

[ElCheapo]

The battle is FAR from won - there is virtually no public interest, or interest from car manufacturers!

The public still has little to no clue what HD is about. Most people polled about it either didn't know what it was or thought they were already receiving it with their conventional radios.

But the iBiquity system is 1,000 mostly major market stations ahead of the nearest competitor.

 

[700WLW]

I thought you said HD Radio was in it's infancy, just getting started. Now you say "That battle has already been fought and iBiquity won." I can't see how you can have your cake and eat it too.

iBiquity won the broadcasters - that's the first step. HD is in its infancy, but iBiquity is so far ahead that no competing scheme can catch up.

With approximately $100,000,000 invested in HD buildouts, nobody is going to abandon HD. Certainly not to please a few DXers with a personal agenda that nobody cares about.

iBiquity has forced IBOC on stations that are owned by members of the HD Radio Cartel; 1,000 stations is a far cry from the 13,500 existing stations - many stations are holding off from investing in IBOC, due to all the negative issues. As Mark Ramsey has stated, it doesn't matter how much has been invested, if the general public and station owners don't buy into this farse and fraud:

"If you build it will they come ?"

http://www.hear2.com/2006/10/if_you_build_it.html#comments

The general public is not complaining about IBOC's interference, because no one cares enough about terrestrial radio (if I hear interference, I just change channels, NOT complain to stations directly), and those few that have heard about HD Radio/IBOC think they are listening to it on their analog radios - what a failure in the ad campaign ! The market is already saturated with broadcast stations, and adding new HD channels will not add any incentives to buy HD radios - Amazon's VERY poor sales rankings for all HD radios and tuners proves this point. Commercials will be added to the HD channels, eventually, so this will just drive consumers away, further. HD Radio/IBOC is already a failure and iBiquity is quickly running out of time:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58846-2005Feb27.html

iBiquity is HOPING for 2,500 stations to convert to IBOC, by the end of the decade - if that happens, that is still only 20% of stations - too little, too late ! Handheld Internet Radio receivers are already hitting the market, and Wireless Internet is targeted for 2008 automobiles - if that happens, say goodby to in-dash HD Radio !

 

[ElCheapo]

iBiquity has forced IBOC on stations that are owned by members of the HD Radio Cartel; 1,000 stations is a far cry from the 13,500 existing stations - many stations are holding off from investing in IBOC, due to all the negative issues. As Mark Ramsey has stated, it doesn't matter how much has been invested, if the general public and station owners don't buy into this farse and fraud:

"If you build it will they come ?"

http://www.hear2.com/2006/10/if_you_build_it.html#comments

The general public is not complaining about IBOC's interference, because no one cares enough about terrestrial radio (if I hear interference, I just change channels, NOT complain to stations directly), and those few that have heard about HD Radio/IBOC think they are listening to it on their analog radios - what a failure in the ad campaign ! The market is already saturated with broadcast stations, and adding new HD channels will not add any incentives to buy HD radios - Amazon's VERY poor sales rankings for all HD radios and tuners proves this point. Commercials will be added to the HD channels, eventually, so this will just drive consumers away, further. HD Radio/IBOC is already a failure and iBiquity is quickly running out of time:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58846-2005Feb27.html

iBiquity is HOPING for 2,500 stations to convert to IBOC, by the end of the decade - if that happens, that is still only 20% of stations - too little, too late ! Handheld Internet Radio receivers are already hitting the market, and Wireless Internet is targeted for 2008 automobiles - if that happens, say goodby to in-dash HD Radio !

The technology will continue. Whether the company that owns it is iBiquity, or Harris.

Wireless internet is targeted for 2008 automobiles? What color of crack are you smoking? The only way that could possibly happen is if one of the cell phone companies got in the game because they're the only ones with a widely compatible infrastructure.

If that were to happen, it's still a pay-radio scheme and would fail for the same reason XM and Sirius are failing. Think Cingular or Sprint is just going to give away all that bandwidth?

 

[700WLW]

iBiquity has forced IBOC on stations that are owned by members of the HD Radio Cartel; 1,000 stations is a far cry from the 13,500 existing stations - many stations are holding off from investing in IBOC, due to all the negative issues. As Mark Ramsey has stated, it doesn't matter how much has been invested, if the general public and station owners don't buy into this farse and fraud:

"If you build it will they come ?"

http://www.hear2.com/2006/10/if_you_build_it.html#comments

The general public is not complaining about IBOC's interference, because no one cares enough about terrestrial radio (if I hear interference, I just change channels, NOT complain to stations directly), and those few that have heard about HD Radio/IBOC think they are listening to it on their analog radios - what a failure in the ad campaign ! The market is already saturated with broadcast stations, and adding new HD channels will not add any incentives to buy HD radios - Amazon's VERY poor sales rankings for all HD radios and tuners proves this point. Commercials will be added to the HD channels, eventually, so this will just drive consumers away, further. HD Radio/IBOC is already a failure and iBiquity is quickly running out of time:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58846-2005Feb27.html

iBiquity is HOPING for 2,500 stations to convert to IBOC, by the end of the decade - if that happens, that is still only 20% of stations - too little, too late ! Handheld Internet Radio receivers are already hitting the market, and Wireless Internet is targeted for 2008 automobiles - if that happens, say goodby to in-dash HD Radio !

The technology will continue. Whether the company that owns it is iBiquity, or Harris.

Wireless internet is targeted for 2008 automobiles? What color of crack are you smoking? The only way that could possibly happen is if one of the cell phone companies got in the game because they're the only ones with a widely compatible infrastructure.

If that were to happen, it's still a pay-radio scheme and would fail for the same reason XM and Sirius are failing. Think Cingular or Sprint is just going to give away all that bandwidth?

http://208.62.120.181/drmn/cda/article_print/0,1983,DRMN_23910_5087124_ARTICLE-DETAIL-PRINT,00.html

IBOC will fail !

 

[ElCheapo]

http://208.62.120.181/drmn/cda/article_print/0,1983,DRMN_23910_5087124_ARTICLE-DETAIL-PRINT,00.html

IBOC will fail !

No it won't!

I have clearwire as my home ISP. To say it sucks just doesn't do the word "sucks" justice - because it sucks on an entirely new level.

That article - while interesting - talks about almost a dozen different companies using several different platforms. Do you really believe that anyone will buy an internet car stereo in 2008? If such an animal is developed by then - which it won't be - it would require service with several different, extremely patchy networks to deliver any type near acceptable performance.

Then there's another issue - safety. Personally, I can't see people buying any type of internet device for the car just to listen to streams online. The real benefit of such a device would be web browsing and e-mail checking while on the road - which frankly makes me very nervous. Several states have banned cell phone use without a hands-free device. I can see this being banned outright while driving.

But the best part of that article was clearwire. Having them involved only reassures me that it won't work.

 

[700WLW]

This is directly from Clear Channel:

"Internet radio already attracts 19 million American listeners each week. And WiMax technology is expected to deliver this programming to automobiles as early as 2008. Internet radio – and its content – is not regulated."

"More than 20 million iPods were sold as of June of this year. And the so-called “podcast” programs created for them offer endless hours of commercial-free music and talk programming. iPods – and their content – are not regulated."

"Wireless phones are now able to download music and stream satellite radio broadcasts. Wireless phone content – and their new delivery systems – are not regulated."

"And perhaps the most alarming – each of the two satellite radio companies has more than 120 stations in every single market in the continental United States. And the content on satellite radio is not regulated. In contrast, free radio is limited to just 8 stations per market. And both our content and delivery system are highly regulated."

http://www.clearchannel.com/Corporate/PressRelease.aspx?PressReleaseID=1233

Yes, it will - you lose !

 

[vsa]

ElCheapo wrote: Wireless internet is targeted for 2008 automobiles? What color of crack are you smoking?"

You're either quite ignorant about wireless Internet technologoes such as Mobile Wimax, Wibro and EV-DO or you are in denial. I've been listening to flawless Internet radio reception every day for well over a year in my car all over Southern California and adjoining states. Yes, I'm a bit of an early adopter, but many more will be following soon. Ubiquitous wireless Internet is HD Radio's worst nightmare, second only to public apathy.

 

[ElCheapo]

This is directly from Clear Channel:

"Internet radio already attracts 19 million American listeners each week. And WiMax technology is expected to deliver this programming to automobiles as early as 2008. Internet radio – and its content – is not regulated."

"More than 20 million iPods were sold as of June of this year. And the so-called “podcast” programs created for them offer endless hours of commercial-free music and talk programming. iPods – and their content – are not regulated."

"Wireless phones are now able to download music and stream satellite radio broadcasts. Wireless phone content – and their new delivery systems – are not regulated."

"And perhaps the most alarming – each of the two satellite radio companies has more than 120 stations in every single market in the continental United States. And the content on satellite radio is not regulated. In contrast, free radio is limited to just 8 stations per market. And both our content and delivery system are highly regulated."

http://www.clearchannel.com/Corporate/PressRelease.aspx?PressReleaseID=1233

Yes, it will - you lose !

Yeah - in a press release reasoning for more deregulation of radio - go figure.

Just because Mark Mays says something doesn't necessarily mean it's not true or at the very least embellished.

You LOSE!

 

[ElCheapo]

ElCheapo wrote: Wireless internet is targeted for 2008 automobiles? What color of crack are you smoking?"

You're either quite ignorant about wireless Internet technologoes such as Mobile Wimax, Wibro and EV-DO or you are in denial. I've been listening to flawless Internet radio reception every day for well over a year in my car all over Southern California and adjoining states. Yes, I'm a bit of an early adopter, but many more will be following soon. Ubiquitous wireless Internet is HD Radio's worst nightmare, second only to public apathy.

Right... And what exactly are you listening to on your laptop while you drive around?

I obviously made a huge mistake here - I thought I was dealing with people who could at least fathom what normal people are like and how they use radio.

My bad...

 

[vsa]

Laptop? No laptop is needed, although I can - and do - tether my laptop to my cell phone/pda when I want to use a much larger screen. That can be done with a usb cable or wirelessly by way of bluetooth. It's really simple. What do I listen to? That makes no difference, since thousands of Internet-delivered radio stations have the same quality of "signal". The audio quality is exactly the same as streaming on a regular computer.

I know I'm trying to tell a dinosaur here that he is going extinct, so I don't really expect you to buy or even understand what I'm talking about.

 

[ElCheapo]

Laptop? No laptop is needed, although I can - and do - tether my laptop to my cell phone/pda when I want to use a much larger screen. That can be done with a usb cable or wirelessly by way of bluetooth. What do I listen to? That makes no difference, since thousands of Internet-delivered radio stations have the same quality of "signal". The audio quality is exactly the same as streaming on a regular computer.

I know I'm trying to tell a dinosaur here that he is going extinct, so I don't really expect you buy or understand what I'm talking about.

Right...

Why don't you share 5 of these high quality internet stations you listen to all the time with the rest of the class?





[/quote]