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"HD DOA"

PocketRadio said:
clouseau said:
I would say that you are mistaken. Stataholic is powered by Alexa. Alexa get's its info from those who use "The Alexa Toolbar".

Wrong - "Statsaholic is not affiliated with Alexa.com, but depends on them exclusively for the traffic chart images."
Now you are just concealing the truth you know, from everyone here. You didn't post a link to the
"Statsaholic is not affiliated with Alexa.com, but depends on them exclusively for the traffic chart images."
That's because the page starts off with the sentence...
Statsaholic makes Alexa Traffic Charts more usable by putting them into a lightweight, interactive interface with easily-bookmarked pages.

What part of "Powered by Alexa" do you think is wrong?

Dude... This out and out lying is getting old.

Here's the link for everyone to see how you're trying to deceive us.
http://www.statsaholic.com/about

And here's a quote from the page that trys to justify why Alexa stats are not garbage. Obviously there's little better attempt to justify it, but it starts out...
Some criticize Alexa traffic data, saying that since it comes only from users with the Alexa toolbar installed, it must be worthless...
 
dumber than a box of hair said:
Clouseau is exactly right on this one. Anyone who installs toolbars should be shot. Every last one of them is spyware. I don't allow them on any computers connected to the network at my office, and those who install them face termination of their employment. Anyone using IE7 or Firefox has all the built-in tools they need.

Aw shucks, Thanks... :)

(BTW, at the moment, the stataholic.com domain name is "parked." It's only a links page now.)

I think you got a misspelling. (I've done that several times typing it in in the last few minutes.) It's statsaholic. Your missing an s. All of their glory is there.

Clouseau
 
clouseau said:
I think you got a misspelling. (I've done that several times typing it in in the last few minutes.) It's statsaholic. Your missing an s. All of their glory is there.

Clouseau

Yes, my bad. Lately I'm either missing an s or I am one...
 
clouseau said:
PocketRadio said:
clouseau said:
I would say that you are mistaken. Stataholic is powered by Alexa. Alexa get's its info from those who use "The Alexa Toolbar".

Wrong - "Statsaholic is not affiliated with Alexa.com, but depends on them exclusively for the traffic chart images."
Now you are just concealing the truth you know, from everyone here. You didn't post a link to the
"Statsaholic is not affiliated with Alexa.com, but depends on them exclusively for the traffic chart images."
That's because the page starts off with the sentence...
Statsaholic makes Alexa Traffic Charts more usable by putting them into a lightweight, interactive interface with easily-bookmarked pages.

What part of "Powered by Alexa" do you think is wrong?

Dude... This out and out lying is getting old.

Here's the link for everyone to see how you're trying to deceive us.
http://www.statsaholic.com/about

And here's a quote from the page that trys to justify why Alexa stats are not garbage. Obviously there's little better attempt to justify it, but it starts out...
Some criticize Alexa traffic data, saying that since it comes only from users with the Alexa toolbar installed, it must be worthless...

"What kind of digital radio are listeners searching for?"

"What a cool analysis Google now provides via Google Trends. It's what folks are searching for - and we can assume that search is a representation of interest."

"Don - your point is EXACTLY why "find hidden stations between the stations" messaging is a failure. It's radio geeks talking to radio geeks. The average person as little interest in searching around to "discover" what may be "hidden" between radio stations - they want to know - Oh - there's a new country station etc..."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/10/what_kind_of_di.html

Even if true, Statsaholic is still a random sampling of how few are visiting hdradio.com - consumers are still not searching for, "HD Radio". Back to Google Trends ! :D
 
Just to spread some napalm on all this excitement ... anyone do a search on "Internet Radio" lately? I did today. I wasn't surprised at the results.

DelColliano is right.

It's not about HD radio. It's about what people are listening to and what they will listen to.

It's about programming, not new gizmo-geek, high cost radios that are bound by a city of license.

Why have that kind of limit when the "people's Internet" is the world?

I think the HD boat has sailed into the sunset.

The torpedo runs start hitting it in the summer with new "digital" gadgets no related to HD, causing a diversion to the multi-milion dollar ad campaign and I'd bet the farm that DelColliano's right on the money.
 
oaktree said:
Just to spread some napalm on all this excitement ... anyone do a search on "Internet Radio" lately? I did today. I wasn't surprised at the results.

DelColliano is right.

It's not about HD radio. It's about what people are listening to and what they will listen to.

It's about programming, not new gizmo-geek, high cost radios that are bound by a city of license.

Why have that kind of limit when the "people's Internet" is the world?

I think the HD boat has sailed into the sunset.

The torpedo runs start hitting it in the summer with new "digital" gadgets no related to HD, causing a diversion to the multi-milion dollar ad campaign and I'd bet the farm that DelColliano's right on the money.

HD radio has just left its experimental status under two months ago and you are saying it's dead? What do you base this on and don't you think that declaring this technology dead 2 months after it's been OKed by the commission and as of yet not in effect, shows a bit of a short attention span and wishful thinking? Internet radio which isn't local and in many cases far from professional, isn't portable. There are no car Internet units. The infrastucture isn't built and say you want to drive from Chicago to St Louis as an example, how do you listen to Internet radio without paying the equivelant of a years salery using a cell phone. I left out the constant cell phone dropouts but of course that would be an issue too. HD radio is here. the other technologies are not. By the way, the average person could care less about listening to that streamer from the south Pacific playing local tunes. They want local radio. The advantage of the internet is that I could take my local stations with me when I travel but as I said, the infrastucture is not in place. Who's gonna pay for it?
 
oaktree said:
Just to spread some napalm on all this excitement ... anyone do a search on "Internet Radio" lately? I did today. I wasn't surprised at the results.

OK. I'll ask with the utmost respect. I did a searh on "Internet radio" in my browser. Jerry did not come up in the top 20 searches. You claim some type of validation. Do the rest of us get let into the secret link?

Clouseau
 
Not on Jerry...on the words "internet radio" on Alexa... Compare it with Sirrius, XM and HD Radio...
 
"HD radio has just left its experimental status under two months ago"

But its been "out of experimental" and on the air for, what, a year ... except at night on AM? There have been plenty of stations in "HD", not putting spots on the HD2 streams, but utilizing the technology for a lot longer than two months.

"and you are saying it's dead?"

A slow death ... but a death, imho.

"What do you base this on and don't you think that declaring this technology dead 2 months after it's been OKed by the commission and as of yet not in effect,"


50 million people in the country, alone, listen to clean sounding (if done correctly) Internet radio ...even AM stations sound better than FM stations across the country and they didn't have to spent squillions on iBOC licensing or equipment to do so. Just because it was OKed as the "defacto" standard because after all this, somebody had too...doesn't make it the best or right choice, especially for small market broadcasters who will get destroyed when they get eaten up by the digital noise and improper or ineffective set-ups now being experienced...especially on AM.

"shows a bit of a short attention span and wishful thinking?"


In your opinion ... and I respect that. But I disagree, also respecfully.

"Internet radio which isn't local and in many cases far from professional, isn't portable."

Tell that to the thousands of broadcasters (terrestrial) coast-to-coast who DO stream and have been doing so for a long time to get their often pitiful signals at last into office buildings and homes, apartments and in wi-fi hot spots they couldn't expect to have just three or four years ago.

Another major point ... portable wi-fi enhanced units for Internet radio are much wanted NOW by many of the 50-MILLION people who listen to their local and far-away radio stations and don't want to be leashed to their computers forever, but love the technology and the "sound."

Professional webcasting by many or not is the treasure of the Internet. You either like it or you turn it off. It does, however, level the playing field for all broadcasters. A 50kw giant is no better than a 0-milliwatt webcaster on the Internet. There are many many stations that sound a heck of a lot better than commercial terrestrial stations format and programming wise...at no cost. Plus...you get to use the Internet for jus the charge you pay each month.

"There are no car Internet units."

But for the 22 minutes to 2 hours people spend in the car, terrestrial radio isn't what's happening either. Satellite radio and iPods take a lot of that time, and so do CDs & even tapes. And some DO listen to the 'net in cars in heavy wi-fi areas. It's the "inside" that works for the Internet.

"The infrastucture isn't built and say you want to drive from Chicago to St Louis as an example, how do you listen to Internet radio without paying the equivelant of a years salery using a cell phone.

Right now, you don't...anymore than you do for an HD equipped radio that loses stations as soon as they are out of range and, especially, in unprotected countour areas.

"HD radio is here. the other technologiutes are not."

And HD radio has lots of problem. It is incredibly expensive to implement...and not cheap to get consumers to buy when FM doesn't sound, to the average person, any better and AM is not much better. The other technologies ARE hear. I have a great ROKU Labs radio that I swear by and am, right now, listening to a crystal clear AM in Philadelphia and I live in California. And it's a portable, Bose Wave Radio sound with over 3000 stations on it right now...and more everyday. I don't have to go anywhere to hear the variety of stations.

I listen on the patio with no wires, no computer, nothing. I listen in the garage and I put a Belkin FM xmtr on the headphone out and listen in both the front and back yard through a regular FM Walkman...

"By the way, the average person could care less about listening to that streamer from the south Pacific playing local tunes."

You're right. But that's not what Internet radio does. When I listen to a commercial station in Hawaii or Fiji, I listen to Hawaiian music, or South Seas island music. If I want to hear Bermuda or the Bahamas, or London or whatever ... I get to hear "their" music and what radio sounds like in those lands. I'm a fan, in fact, of Australian music and rado there. Can't do that on car radio or most other radios...and I have several.

"They want local radio."

Not neccesarily. There are some 10,000 webcasters who profess that terrestrial radio doesn't program to the masses anymore and the corporate dominance of cookie cutter radio makes AM & FM rado boring and repeititous. That's why the Internet is a much more growing threat. I believe that.

"The advantage of the internet is that I could take my local stations with me when I travel but as I said, the infrastucture is not in place. Who's gonna pay for it? "


Well, in Los Angeles, I can tell you several companies and businesses, in fact, entire industries, are getting that city "max-fied" in the next two years. I hear that in London, they did that this week. Who pays for it? Our taxes will pay for it because it's a mobile society, now. People use cell phones and will use wireless the same way in the months and years to come. And if I'm in a hotel, chances are I can get free wireless to hear my local station(s) anywhere in the world...in crystal clear quality, tuned in just like a regular radio.

I have a portable Internet radio that works real well...a Torian Wireless inFusion unit that fits in my shirt pocket, and I'm surprised at how many wi-fi hot spots I'm in each day and I'm in a small town, comparitively speaking. The radio is from Australia and is available here, at several retailers and online.

Again, the want and desire are there for Internet appliances. For HD, the average consumer, even many retailers, no nothing about it...

Why be limited by a city of license when the "people's Internet" is worldwide? Now!

Thanks for your good post. I appreciate the chance to respond. -oaktree-
 
clouseau said:
oaktree said:
Just to spread some napalm on all this excitement ... anyone do a search on "Internet Radio" lately? I did today. I wasn't surprised at the results.

OK. I'll ask with the utmost respect. I did a searh on "Internet radio" in my browser. Jerry did not come up in the top 20 searches. You claim some type of validation. Do the rest of us get let into the secret link?

Clouseau

Using Statsaholic, if you run stats for apple.com, which includes apple.com/itunes, the daily hit count (reach) averages 9 billion hits/day:

http://www.statsaholic.com/apple.com

So, the sampling rate is very high and totally random - just as with Google Trends, this gives a good indication of the lack of interest with HD Radio.
 
clouseau said:
oaktree said:
Just to spread some napalm on all this excitement ... anyone do a search on "Internet Radio" lately? I did today. I wasn't surprised at the results.

OK. I'll ask with the utmost respect. I did a searh on "Internet radio" in my browser. Jerry did not come up in the top 20 searches. You claim some type of validation. Do the rest of us get let into the secret link?

Clouseau

Since 49.5% of Web users use Google, if you run Google Trends for "HD Radio" versus "Internet Radio", HD Radio is almost a flat line:

http://www.google.com/trends?q="hd+radio",+"internet+radio"&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all

If you run Googlefights, which shows the number of Web sites referencing different terms:

"HD Radio" - 1,200,800
"Internet Radio" - 8,560,000
 
There are tens of thousands of internet radio stations. And the average number of simultaneous listeners for any one station is under TEN. Don't take my word for it, brouse Shoutcast http://www.shoutcast.com and pay particular attention to how many are LISTENING to the stations.

People probably "google" internet radio for the same reason I do...TO FIND STATIONS! There's no such reason to google HD Radio, because the statons are OVER THE AIR, not online. People search more often ONLINE for a service only offered ONLINE. HUGE surprise, thanks for that!
 
Mike Walker said:
There are tens of thousands of internet radio stations. And the average number of simultaneous listeners for any one station is under TEN. Don't take my word for it, brouse Shoutcast http://www.shoutcast.com and pay particular attention to how many are LISTENING to the stations.

People probably "google" internet radio for the same reason I do...TO FIND STATIONS! There's no such reason to google HD Radio, because the statons are OVER THE AIR, not online. People search more often ONLINE for a service only offered ONLINE. HUGE surprise, thanks for that!

Consumers that are interested in HD Radio, of course, would search on "HD Radio", and the first site that comes up on Google is, "hdradio.com". To find out more information about HD Radio, or to find actual HD Radio receivers, consumers would have to search on, "HD Radio". The only way to find the secret stations-between-the-stations, is to go to hdradio.com. "Are you Def Yet ?" :D

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q="hd+radio"
 
oaktree said:
<snip>
I have a portable Internet radio that works real well...a Torian Wireless inFusion unit that fits in my shirt pocket, and I'm surprised at how many wi-fi hot spots I'm in each day and I'm in a small town, comparitively speaking. The radio is from Australia and is available here, at several retailers and online.
<snip>

Most colleges have the entire campus wired for Wi-Fi. Coincidentally, most college kids are very interested in music. Do you suppose they might use the college’s infrastructure to listen to Internet radio? Nah....It will never happen. :eek:

Even a lot of small towns have wireless Internet systems. I travel a lot, and I'm amazed at how many free wireless hot spots there are. Hotels, restaurants and airports often have free connections. So do campgrounds, truck stops and even some roadside rest areas. It has almost become a hobby with me to see where I can log on to the Internet. Maybe that is the replacement for DXing.
 
Mike Walker said:
There are tens of thousands of internet radio stations. And the average number of simultaneous listeners for any one station is under TEN. Don't take my word for it, brouse Shoutcast http://www.shoutcast.com and pay particular attention to how many are LISTENING to the stations.

That is certainly true, but there are some Internet radio stations that do have significant numbers. There are probably lots of HD-2 stations out there that would be lucky to have 10 listeners too. For both technologies, it is early. Some of those stations will grow. Others will fade away.
 
Chuck said:
Mike Walker said:
There are tens of thousands of internet radio stations. And the average number of simultaneous listeners for any one station is under TEN. Don't take my word for it, brouse Shoutcast http://www.shoutcast.com and pay particular attention to how many are LISTENING to the stations.

That is certainly true, but there are some Internet radio stations that do have significant numbers. There are probably lots of HD-2 stations out there that would be lucky to have 10 listeners too. For both technologies, it is early. Some of those stations will grow. Others will fade away.

Just curious, what do you consider significant numbers?
 
R.F. Burns said:
Just curious, what do you consider significant numbers?

Well, lets throw out 1000 listeners with a TSL in excess of 6 hours. That ought to be marketable to someone.

I note that there are quite a few Internet stations shown on the Shoutcast site that have had in excess of 20,000 listeners. That is bigger than the population of most towns. Not too shabby for setting up a computer in your spare bedroom. :)
 
I just got back from a trip along the California Coast and I stopped in at a couple of community AM stations. One was KRML in Carmel which has a mainstream jazz format in AM stereo. They're signal covers all of Carmel Valley, Carmel By The Sea and Monterrey. I had a nice conversation with owner Dave Kimball and he said that since going online a couple of years ago that they have been getting listeners from all across the country. I didn't ask him for a listener count but Dave is excited enough about the potential of webcasting that he is in the process of beefing up his servers to allow for more streams.

I asked both stations about their plans for HD Radio and neither KRML nor the other station, KNRY (which has a talk radio format), see the need to convert to it or even budget for it.

db
 
dbdigital said:
I just got back from a trip along the California Coast and I stopped in at a couple of community AM stations. One was KRML in Carmel which has a mainstream jazz format in AM stereo. They're signal covers all of Carmel Valley, Carmel By The Sea and Monterrey. I had a nice conversation with owner Dave Kimball and he said that since going online a couple of years ago that they have been getting listeners from all across the country. I didn't ask him for a listener count but Dave is excited enough about the potential of webcasting that he is in the process of beefing up his servers to allow for more streams.

I asked both stations about their plans for HD Radio and neither KRML nor the other station, KNRY (which has a talk radio format), see the need to convert to it or even budget for it.

db
These are two small market radio stations. They are hardly state of the art operations. You can't compare a 500 watt daytimer on 1410 or a local 1K on 1240 with the station that are currently just implimenting IBOC. I'll bet neither stations has a Telos Zephyr X-Stream or a Comrex Hotline or any of what is today considered standard broadcast equipment for a larger radio station. Here's some station info about KRML. Not exactly major market (remember major markets are where more people live) income. I'm sure it serves its nice community, but you don't base an industry decision on 2 small market facilities.
 
R.F. Burns said:
dbdigital said:
I just got back from a trip along the California Coast and I stopped in at a couple of community AM stations. One was KRML in Carmel which has a mainstream jazz format in AM stereo. They're signal covers all of Carmel Valley, Carmel By The Sea and Monterrey. I had a nice conversation with owner Dave Kimball and he said that since going online a couple of years ago that they have been getting listeners from all across the country. I didn't ask him for a listener count but Dave is excited enough about the potential of webcasting that he is in the process of beefing up his servers to allow for more streams.

I asked both stations about their plans for HD Radio and neither KRML nor the other station, KNRY (which has a talk radio format), see the need to convert to it or even budget for it.

db
These are two small market radio stations. They are hardly state of the art operations. You can't compare a 500 watt daytimer on 1410 or a local 1K on 1240 with the station that are currently just implimenting IBOC. I'll bet neither stations has a Telos Zephyr X-Stream or a Comrex Hotline or any of what is today considered standard broadcast equipment for a larger radio station. Here's some station info about KRML. Not exactly major market (remember major markets are where more people live) income. I'm sure it serves its nice community, but you don't base an industry decision on 2 small market facilities.

Exactly! My post was to show that small market broadcasters are not being included (or are excluding themselves) in the HD Radio transition. Most (like KNRY) cannot afford to make the migration to HD-R nor are they being courted by iBiquity, the hardware manufacturers or the NAB to do so. The two I mentioned simply didn't see the need for it.

As for KRML, they claim an average listenership of close to 30,000 per week and are located in one of the wealthiest communities in California. So the station is doing just fine within its niche. I didn't check to see what was in their rack, but I did monitor the signal on their Fanfare reference tuner and, in AMS, KRML sounded sweet.

But obviously many small market stations see HD-R as a technology reserved for the media conglomerates or major markets. And unless there is a more concerted effort to make the transition to digital more cost effective and attractive to the small broadcasters, we will see a much larger divide between the small and major market stations.

db
 
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