HD DX

[w9wi]

Something amazing happened this morning - I managed to hear a HD Radio station more than 30 miles away

While doing a bit of DXing with the ham rig, I noticed 1030 and 1050KHz buried in someone's HD sidebands. Tuning to 1040, I was not at all surprised to hear WHO, Des Moines, blasting in at near local strength. Grabbed the Receptor HD, hooked it to the ham antenna, and was promptly rewarded with a "WHO" text ID on the radio's display. Much to my surprise, I was also promptly rewarded with about 90 seconds of digital audio! This is the first time I've ever heard HD digital audio from a non-local station.

(there are several HD stations within 15-30 miles but then no others within 150 miles)

I have to say it did sound better than the analog audio. (can't say that for the local HD stations, which are nearly impossible to distinguish from analog) After ~90 seconds, WHO faded a bit & slipped back to analog. Got another couple of seconds of digital audio about five minutes later.

I will say, there aren't going to be many people listening to HD with a 700-foot antenna(grin). But it was definitely interesting.

 

[pqgeorge]

I actually got both the HD-1 and HD-2 streams from 88.1/WUWF in Pensacola, FL (a distance of 1207 miles, as the crow flies) at my home in Whitman, MA during an E-skip opening last summer. It did require a very strong signal to open up the IBOC circuitry, never mind the strong 18 db. amp and the Stereo-Probe 9 I used to do it (I have a Boston-Acoustics receiver). Yes.... IBOC DOES propagate e-skip from time to time. But only the very STRONG signals allow for decoding it. Fortunately, analog will be here for a good while longer.

Admittedly, the stuff I hear on the HD-2 channels here in the Boston/Providence area are really nothing to write home about. The WROR/105.7 HD-2 channel (All 70's) is about the only one I listen to from time to time. Oh, well.

73,

-Pete (K1XRB)

 

[milton77]

I live in Oklahoma City and have been able to hear KRLD & WOAI just before sunset using the loop antenna that comes with the BA receiver.

 

[1q2w3e]

Something amazing happened this morning - I managed to hear a HD Radio station more than 30 miles away

While doing a bit of DXing with the ham rig, I noticed 1030 and 1050KHz buried in someone's HD sidebands. Tuning to 1040, I was not at all surprised to hear WHO, Des Moines, blasting in at near local strength. Grabbed the Receptor HD, hooked it to the ham antenna, and was promptly rewarded with a "WHO" text ID on the radio's display. Much to my surprise, I was also promptly rewarded with about 90 seconds of digital audio! This is the first time I've ever heard HD digital audio from a non-local station.

(there are several HD stations within 15-30 miles but then no others within 150 miles)

I have to say it did sound better than the analog audio. (can't say that for the local HD stations, which are nearly impossible to distinguish from analog) After ~90 seconds, WHO faded a bit & slipped back to analog. Got another couple of seconds of digital audio about five minutes later.

I will say, there aren't going to be many people listening to HD with a 700-foot antenna(grin). But it was definitely interesting.

While visiting in Wisconsin, I was able to pick up both WLW and 1530 in Cincy in HD at a distance of over 400 miles.

Also I dont understand about the 30 miles FM thing (unless you are talking about a class A). I quite often listen to an HD2 station 80+ miles away in my car.

HD can present a new opportunity to grey line some stations. It can make for a good challenge and I am working the grey line most evenings.

 

[Mike Walker]

EVERY HD station is more than 60 miles from me (some 80 or more), and I get them just fine...with an indoor antenna (Magnum Dynalab SR100). I've posted it before, but here's what HD sounds like at my house at 60 to 80 mile distances http://www.theproductionroom.net/hd.wma

I have yet to receive anything I'd call "dx" (FM at 80 miles, whether analog or HD ain't "dx" in my book!) on HD. And I've REALLY tried to pull in something, ANYTHING in HD on AM just before sunset, and after sunrise. So fra, "nuttin' Honey".

 

[audiophile.]

HD (DX) should be banned, just think how stations are getting hammered with white noise on these openings...

 

[700WLW]

I will say, there aren't going to be many people listening to HD with a 700-foot antenna(grin). But it was definitely interesting.

Maybe, manufacturers/retailers should make this standard equipment, for all HD Radios !

 

[Len14043]

Here in Cincinnati, WBBM occasionally locks in around sunset. On FM, 80 mile HD reception is nearly impossible because most of the stations here have co-channels within 100 miles. The other day I was listening to a rock station from Dayton on 103.9 in HD. When it faded to analog, a station from Batesville, Indiana on 103.9 came in. I thought that was strange.

 

[Len14043]

HD (DX) should be banned, just think how stations are getting hammered with white noise on these openings...

I'm more concerned about the HD sidebands getting hammered during those openings.

 

[Mike Walker]

Again 700 misses the point with the "700 foot antenna" comment. REAL dxers use not Sony pocket radios with no external antenna, but expensive communications receivers WITH VERY LONGWIRE ANTENNAS to pull in REALLY distant, difficult stations. A 50kw clear channel station IS NOT REAL DX, even if it's five states away. Now a daytimer running 250 watts during critical hours, 1500 miles away...THAT is dx!

 

[DoogieDown1]

I've posted it before, but here's what HD sounds like at my house at 60 to 80 mile distances http://www.theproductionroom.net/hd.wma

Thanks for posting that file, Mike.

I especially enjoyed hearing the classical station using its full 96 kbps of bandwidth. I'm beginning to think that's the way it OUGHT to be done.

Were the other two examples of HD1/HD2 pairs dividing bandwidth equally, at 48/48 kbps? I could hear a tinny quality to them.

 

[700WLW]

Again 700 misses the point with the "700 foot antenna" comment. REAL dxers use not Sony pocket radios with no external antenna, but expensive communications receivers WITH VERY LONGWIRE ANTENNAS to pull in REALLY distant, difficult stations. A 50kw clear channel station IS NOT REAL DX, even if it's five states away. Now a daytimer running 250 watts during critical hours, 1500 miles away...THAT is dx!

Hey, my $10 Sony ICF-S10MK2 has gotten, consistently, 5-star reviews (excuse me, while I shill it for a moment):

http://www.radiointel.com/review-sonys10mk2.htm

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cu...630159-9046047?ie=UTF8&n=172282&s=electronics

The Sony is consistently ranked well-above all HD radios, on Amazon's electronics list. Actually, last night, I got KOA Denver (bearly) for a few minutes from Maryland, for the first time, with just its internal-ferrite bar antenna. Tonight, at 6:45 PM, WBBM and WLW are coming in like locals - they got hit really hard, by the snow storm. I consider, using external antennas, as cheating for DXing. So, now that I just listen to the clear-channels, I am not considered a DX'er - no more flaming me, as a disgruntled DX'er !

 

[EasyPeazy]

Hey, my $10 Sony ICF-S10MK2 has gotten, consistently, 5-star reviews (excuse me, while I shill it for a moment):

If you're the person reviewing it, I have no doubt that's true.

 

[Mike Walker]

If you think a "five star review" for a 10 dollar pocket radio is the same as a "five star review" for a tabletop communications receiver, then you ain't the brightest bulb in the fixture, are ya' 700? As for consumer reviews, I couldn't possibly care less. Most people don't understand the operation of products well enough, and certainly don't have access to enough competing models to state with any certainty that the product they love (or hate) so much is typical or exceptional (compared to similar products from other manufacturers).

Which leaves professional reviewers. THEY are smart enough to know that pocket radios are compared to other pocket radios, NOT to communications receivers. I have some great radios...but only one of them, my Drake SW8, can clearly separate 1230khz (WNNC Newton...about 30 miles away) from 1240khz (WWWC here in town). If I want to get the much weaker 1230, instead of the stronger (closer) 1240, I simply put my SW8 in narrow bandwidth mode, and select LSB. BINGO...there's 1230 with no interference! Try THAT with your Sony! REAL dx isn't just about distance, it's about DIFFICULTY! I can reposition a loop antenna connected to my Drake and pull in OTHER, weaker 1230s...like those in High Point (70 miles away), or Asheville (90 miles away). Can your Sony receive say three (or more) different 1230s just a couple of miles down the road from a 1240? THIS IS DX!

 

[700WLW]

If you think a "five star review" for a 10 dollar pocket radio is the same as a "five star review" for a tabletop communications receiver, then you ain't the brightest bulb in the fixture, are ya' 700? As for consumer reviews, I couldn't possibly care less. Most people don't understand the operation of products well enough, and certainly don't have access to enough competing models to state with any certainty that the product they love (or hate) so much is typical or exceptional (compared to similar products from other manufacturers).

Which leaves professional reviewers. THEY are smart enough to know that pocket radios are compared to other pocket radios, NOT to communications receivers. I have some great radios...but only one of them, my Drake SW8, can clearly separate 1230khz (WNNC Newton...about 30 miles away) from 1240khz (WWWC here in town). If I want to get the much weaker 1230, instead of the stronger (closer) 1240, I simply put my SW8 in narrow bandwidth mode, and select LSB. BINGO...there's 1230 with no interference! Try THAT with your Sony! REAL dx isn't just about distance, it's about DIFFICULTY! I can reposition a loop antenna connected to my Drake and pull in OTHER, weaker 1230s...like those in High Point (70 miles away), or Asheville (90 miles away). Can your Sony receive say three (or more) different 1230s just a couple of miles down the road from a 1240? THIS IS DX!

The capabilities of most communication receivers, including the cheap plastic boxed S350, are way-overblown - as we can see from this test, the Sony, with just a loop-antenna, heard 94%, of what the 25-times more expensive ICOM R75, with a Quantum QX Loop heard:

http://www.radiointel.com/review-sonys10mk2.htm

As with the S350, the wide/narrow bandwidths and the low-pass filter do very little, except to muffle the audio. It is a pretty sad situation, that communication receivers are such junk, that a $10 pocket-radio hears 94% of the same stations. I've tried a bunch of analog-tuned and PLL-tuned radios and my Sony pulls in the same stations, including that cheap, Chinese-made S350 and probably the same, as the over-priced Eton E5/G5 (the Degen 1103 is basically the same radio, but only $65, not $150).

 

[Mike Walker]

If you think when a radio enthusiast speaks of a "communications receiver" he/she means the S350, then you've just shown (again) your knowledge of radio technology. The S350 is a nice little inexpensive portable radio. THIS is a communications receiver http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0340.html

And this http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0330.html

And this http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/2786.html

And this http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/3396.html

And this (even available at one time with AM Stereo) http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/1545.html

And this http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0175.html

Here's one of the new "software defined" radios...and an example of why the Accurian HD radio is such a bargain, because it is also a "software defined" radio (with sync detection) at a FAR more affordable price http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0014.html

Another "software defined" communications receiver...this one made in Sevierville Tennessee...Dolly Parton's Home Town ("Ten Tec" stands for "Tennessee Technology") http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0321.html

Note to 700...I didn't say anything about an S350 when I talked about the advantages of a COMMUNICATIONS RECEIVER. I mentioned my Drake SW8...which can, as I indicated, EASILY hear multiple stations on 1230khz in the presence of a strong, local 1240. Something I wouldn't expect a portable to do (but a Sony 7600GR with an external antenna MIGHT be able to).

In closing, anyone who thinks that narrow bandwidth does "nothing but muffle audio" as regards mediumwave reception, where there's SOMETHING on every channel, is in fact a Looney Tunes! Other radios may pick up 90, even 95 percent of what a "communications receiver" receives. SO WHAT? It's the five or ten percent THEY DON'T GET that constitutes REAL DX!

Take your pocket radio, inductively couple it to my longwire, and see if it can get 1230 at my house. Then turn on my Drake, put it in narrow bandwidth, and lower sideband mode, and not only is 1230 there, it's CLEAN! Want separation WITHOUT muffled audio? Select the narrowest bandwidth, leave sync selectable sideband off, and manually tune down a couple of khz below 1230 (where the highs are). There you have it...high frequencies AND complete rejection of the sidebands from the local 1240. Again, NO pocket radio can do that! ANY quality communications receiver can.

The reason is simple, 700. Math must not be a foreign concept to a 'software engineer' such as yourself. AM signals consist of a carrier (at assigned frequency) and two sidebands, which are identical, but inverted in phase (from one another). The higher the audio frequency being transmitted, the farther from carrier center the sidebands deviate. Say a typical AM radio has an audio passband of about 5khz. If the station on, say 1240 broadcasts something as high as 8khz (a cymbal crash, or muted trumpet would certainly have lots of energy in this range), then it's putting audio within TWO KILOHERTZ of carrier center of the 1230khz station you're trying to listen to. Even during speech, there's plenty of information at 5khz...right in the passband of your radio trying to get 1230 (hard to do with your 1240 local "splattering" from 1232 to 1248 AT LEAST). This is completely impossible for a ten dollar pocket radio, but a "piece of cake" for a communications receiver, which can completely ignore the "splattered" upper sideband of 1230, and concentrate all it's energy on the unaffected lower sideband.

A country doctor may be able to do "95 percent" of what one of the best specialists can do. But oh, that five percent is a killer!

 

[700WLW]

If you think when a radio enthusiast speaks of a "communications receiver" he/she means the S350, then you've just shown (again) your knowledge of radio technology. The S350 is a nice little inexpensive portable radio. THIS is a communications receiver http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0340.html

And this http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0330.html

And this http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/2786.html

And this http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/3396.html

And this (even available at one time with AM Stereo) http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/1545.html

And this http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0175.html

Here's one of the new "software defined" radios...and an example of why the Accurian HD radio is such a bargain, because it is also a "software defined" radio (with sync detection) at a FAR more affordable price http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0014.html

Another "software defined" communications receiver...this one made in Sevierville Tennessee...Dolly Parton's Home Town ("Ten Tec" stands for "Tennessee Technology") http://universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0321.html

Note to 700...I didn't say anything about an S350 when I talked about the advantages of a COMMUNICATIONS RECEIVER. I mentioned my Drake SW8...which can, as I indicated, EASILY hear multiple stations on 1230khz in the presence of a strong, local 1240. Something I wouldn't expect a portable to do (but a Sony 7600GR with an external antenna MIGHT be able to).

In closing, anyone who thinks that narrow bandwidth does "nothing but muffle audio" as regards mediumwave reception, where there's SOMETHING on every channel, is in fact a Looney Tunes! Other radios may pick up 90, even 95 percent of what a "communications receiver" receives. SO WHAT? It's the five or ten percent THEY DON'T GET that constitutes REAL DX!

Take your pocket radio, inductively couple it to my longwire, and see if it can get 1230 at my house. Then turn on my Drake, put it in narrow bandwidth, and lower sideband mode, and not only is 1230 there, it's CLEAN! Want separation WITHOUT muffled audio? Select the narrowest bandwidth, leave sync selectable sideband off, and manually tune down a couple of khz below 1230 (where the highs are). There you have it...high frequencies AND complete rejection of the sidebands from the local 1240. Again, NO pocket radio can do that! ANY quality communications receiver can.

The reason is simple, 700. Math must not be a foreign concept to a 'software engineer' such as yourself. AM signals consist of a carrier (at assigned frequency) and two sidebands, which are identical, but inverted in phase (from one another). The higher the audio frequency being transmitted, the farther from carrier center the sidebands deviate. Say a typical AM radio has an audio passband of about 5khz. If the station on, say 1240 broadcasts something as high as 8khz (a cymbal crash, or muted trumpet would certainly have lots of energy in this range), then it's putting audio within TWO KILOHERTZ of carrier center of the 1230khz station you're trying to listen to. Even during speech, there's plenty of information at 5khz...right in the passband of your radio trying to get 1230 (hard to do with your 1240 local "splattering" from 1232 to 1248 AT LEAST). This is completely impossible for a ten dollar pocket radio, but a "piece of cake" for a communications receiver, which can completely ignore the "splattered" upper sideband of 1230, and concentrate all it's energy on the unaffected lower sideband.

A country doctor may be able to do "95 percent" of what one of the best specialists can do. But oh, that five percent is a killer!

The S350 is total chinese-made cheap plastic junk, and is way-over-blown:

http://www.radiointel.com/results.htm

The S350 received the most negative comments, of all the "most worthless" receivers !

The over-priced $150 Eton E5/G5 is basically the same receiver, as the $65 Degen 1103:

http://www.radiointel.com/review-etone5.htm

As I stated, and proved, the $10 Sony ICF-S10MK2 heard 94% of the stations, of the 25-times more expensive Drake:

http://www.radiointel.com/review-sonys10mk2.htm

 

[w9wi]

I actually got both the HD-1 and HD-2 streams from 88.1/WUWF in Pensacola, FL (a distance of 1207 miles, as the crow flies) at my home in Whitman, MA during an E-skip opening last summer. It did require a very strong signal to open up the IBOC circuitry, never mind the strong 18 db. amp and the Stereo-Probe 9 I used to do it (I have a Boston-Acoustics receiver). Yes.... IBOC DOES propagate e-skip from time to time. But only the very STRONG signals allow for decoding it. Fortunately, analog will be here for a good while longer.

I've certainly been trying for HD E-skip DX but haven't been in the right place at the right time. There aren't a whole lot of stations running IBOC in Wyoming or Montana. (where most of last year's openings went) Pretty confident I'll get something this year.

Admittedly, the stuff I hear on the HD-2 channels here in the Boston/Providence area are really nothing to write home about. The WROR/105.7 HD-2 channel (All 70's) is about the only one I listen to from time to time. Oh, well.

Agreed. Our local NPR station does run an alternate schedule on HD-2 which is pretty good. (I kinda wish they'd just simulcast their AM station, which has zero signal up here at night. But for the overall audience, the 3rd service is probably a better idea.)

As for the commercial stations, there's nothing on the HD-2's that isn't available from the analog stations.

I have a certain uneasiness about the HD-2's on commercial stations. I don't see them operating non-commercially forever; while HD-2 is cheap to run, it's not free, and it is siphoning *some* audience off the paying main channel. Once the HD-2s have to start selling advertising, can they remain with not-quite-mainstream formats? (on the other hand, will people buy HD radios to get HD-2 channels that aren't significantly different from what they can already get cheaper on analog?)

==============================

I wouldn't doubt that routine 80-mile FM HD DX is possible from here. Except for the one factor that makes it impossible: there are no HD stations 80 miles away(grin). Seriously, there are a handful of stations in Nashville (30mi.) but then nothing until Louisville. Memphis is probably a clearer shot but about 180 miles.

I find the report of AM DX with the loop provided with the set to be incredible. In both senses of the term(grin). Seriously, I've not been able to do better than 5 seconds of digital audio with the loop, and that on a 50,000-watt station 20 miles away.

===============================

HD is out there. DXers basically have three choices:
- Toss up their hands in surrender, sell their equipment, and take up needlepoint.
- Work around it, hoping it will go away. (IMHO a very real possibility)
- See HD as an opportunity to try something different. (it looks like Peter & I - among others - have chosen that route)

We're not going to get the kind of distance or reliable DX conditions from HD we got from analog. But DXing, for many, is more about getting the *unusual*, not the *distant*. (heck, why would anyone bother to DX FM, when you have DX conditions on AM *every* night and at much greater distances?)

 

[Mike Walker]

Why the hell are you trashing the S350 700? I specifically said I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE S350! It ain't a "communications receiver", it's a nice little portable radio. Do you even know what I said? Your comment has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I WROTE. Typical...all "transmit" and no "receive". Nobody ever learned anything while "transmitting".

In answer to the earlier question (sorry I didn't reply earlier), yes ALL HD streams in my file except for the first (classical...WDAV) were "multicast" stations that I believe were splitting their bandwidth 48khz/48khz. I agree...96kbps HD sounds phenomenal! Like owning a megabuck supertuner...only it's a cheap table radio!

 

[700WLW]

Why the hell are you trashing the S350 700? I specifically said I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE S350! It ain't a "communications receiver", it's a nice little portable radio. Do you even know what I said? Your comment has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I WROTE. Typical...all "transmit" and no "receive". Nobody ever learned anything while "transmitting".

In answer to the earlier question (sorry I didn't reply earlier), yes ALL HD streams in my file except for the first (classical...WDAV) were "multicast" stations that I believe were splitting their bandwidth 48khz/48khz. I agree...96kbps HD sounds phenomenal! Like owning a megabuck supertuner...only it's a cheap table radio!

All radios, in one form, or another, are communications receivers.