It is kind of like the wild west, or maybe the early days of radio, on FM HD in LA. HD stations come and go and format changes are on a regular basis. HD itself seems to come and go on some stations depending on the whim of the station and the weather. At the moment I see that 105.1 HD-2 and HD-3 are gone completely. KOST Classics (HD-2) has gone through some format changes. But unless I sweep the dial regularly, I can't keep up. This is going to be the case for a while (similar to digital channels on TV) until the programmers and the economy finally catch up with the technolgy.
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HD in LA
- Thread starter K6JHU
- Start date
K6JHU said:
KBIG's HD signal has been down for a few days, and KIIS's was out again late last night. It's ridiculous (and ridiculously annoying) how frequently HD signals just mysteriously go away.
I think the stations (and their hard-working engineers) deserve to be cut a bit of slack in this particular case, inasmuch as the Mount Wilson transmitter sites continue to be largely inaccessible thanks to mudslides and the other aftereffects of the Station fire a few months back. Yes, it would be nice if all the auxiliary transmitter sites at Flint Peak and in the Hollywood hills were equipped with HD as well, but for the moment they're not, and I suspect that what's really happening when "the HD goes down" is that the station's being switched from Wilson to Flint or one of the other aux sites that's analog-only.
This, too, shall pass...
This, too, shall pass...
Just Give It Time Station Be Back In HD
Scott Fybush said:
I agree with Scott. HD is new...give it time. Remember how bad cell phone service was the first few years...and how annoying it can still be at times?
HD gives us more choices, it's free, and tuners and car stereos with HD cost only a few dollars more than similar tuners without HD. The question is - can HD survive and be viable? It would help if the industry would apply pressure and come up with incentives for car manufacturers to install HD equipped stereos in new models.
Scott Fybush said:
Correct.
The most recent complication was the record breaking storm that hit two weeks ago and lasted off and on for the next seven days.
While large amounts of rain fell on the LA metro and most of SoCal, up on the hill it was snow on top and run-off all the way down. Because of the fire, another record setter, the few access roads were covered with mud and landslides, and the forestry folks had them closed off.
On the summit, many stations were lower than usual on fuel for the genny sets and had different degrees of smoke damage on the filtration and air handling equipment. The roads have seldom been open for large tankers, so the situation is tenuous.
Given that an interruption on Wilson was previously unheard of, most stations that had auxiliary sites off the mountain had them minimally equipped... for use when OSHA rules required a shutdown for tower work, for example (although many stations have dual sites or dual towers on the mountain). So they likely are not HD equipped, since usage would be for brief periods.
The HD outages in the last 10 days have to do with this extreme, unique and unpredictable situation.
Also keep in mind that the storm brought a total power outage, and some stations could not go on generator. In the meantime, the freezing temperatures caused icing on the antenna bays, and when the power returned, there was high VSWR and, in a couple of cases, damage to the elements themselves. Repairing the bays while it is sub-zero up there is tough. And there are not that many crews available, even if they could get the gear up the hill.
This is not a moment to criticize... it is time to admire the hard work and dedication of the LA radio engineers... and their TV conunterparts... during the several months of fire, rain, landslides, and logistical hell. Good job, folks. A tip of the hat from one who does not envy those who have to drive up that mountain under all kinds of bad conditions!
I guess the big question is, is HD is even worth the trouble to keep it on especially during adverse conditions. Few people use it and it is even more of a step child to programmers than FM was back when I was a little tyke back in Springfield, Ohio. HD radio is a waste of energy, both labor and electricity, turn it off and leave it off. Here where I am now there is not a single HD FM, or AM, in many many miles and not likely that there ever will be. Someday everybody will wake up to the fact that this is another Quadraphonic boondoggle.
This really has nothing at all to do with HD.
Mount Wilson has been in use for FM and TV broadcasting in LA for 60 years, and in all of those 60 years, the site has never had the access problems it's had in the last three months.
The only reason the analog FM signals haven't also been knocked off the air is that most of them have long had backup facilities lower down (Flint Peak, Verdugo Hills, Briarcrest, etc.) A few of the Mount Wilson FMs - Saul Levine's KKGO and Univision's KLVE among them - lacked those backup facilities, and have been very, very lucky that they've been able to stay on the air without engineers having easy access to their transmitter sites. Several other FMs, including some of the Clear Channel cluster, have had to scramble to get makeshift aux sites in place with little notice.
There's nothing technically complex about building out the aux sites to do HD, too. It's been fairly low on the priority list for most groups, but the lessons of the Station fire (which are still being learned!) will probably include adding HD to major-market aux sites, especially in places like LA and Seattle where bad weather can make a mountaintop main site inaccessible.
Mount Wilson has been in use for FM and TV broadcasting in LA for 60 years, and in all of those 60 years, the site has never had the access problems it's had in the last three months.
The only reason the analog FM signals haven't also been knocked off the air is that most of them have long had backup facilities lower down (Flint Peak, Verdugo Hills, Briarcrest, etc.) A few of the Mount Wilson FMs - Saul Levine's KKGO and Univision's KLVE among them - lacked those backup facilities, and have been very, very lucky that they've been able to stay on the air without engineers having easy access to their transmitter sites. Several other FMs, including some of the Clear Channel cluster, have had to scramble to get makeshift aux sites in place with little notice.
There's nothing technically complex about building out the aux sites to do HD, too. It's been fairly low on the priority list for most groups, but the lessons of the Station fire (which are still being learned!) will probably include adding HD to major-market aux sites, especially in places like LA and Seattle where bad weather can make a mountaintop main site inaccessible.
nmoore6676 said:
A number of the LA stations, including Emmis and Univision, have HD-2 or HD-3 channels leased to providers of services for different foreign language speaking groups in LA. Those groups provide the receivers for the service and promote it in the different communities. The point is that these are profitable uses for HD, and somewhat reminiscent of the multitude of ethnic and multiethnic FMs, particularly in the early 60's in places like Cleveland.
DavidEduardo said:
Not a viable reason to have HD. In the old days auxiliary service used SCA and now with the travails facing broadcasters many AM signals and LPFM can be available for those services. If not that there is the internet and podcasting which is a more appealing solution, economically and technically for getting your message out there.
As to Mr Fybush's comments, that is the price you pay for a clear shot for your signal and mountain tops are good, except in bad conditions. But then there are problems with tall buildings too as the World Trade Center so tragically exemplified. The loss of radio and TV transmitters was not nowhere nearly as much of a loss as the thousands who perished. I'd give up my Internet streaming podcasting and 250 channel plus cable TV to get just one of those persons back among us.
Back to the point, back in my youth most FM stations had one (1) transmitter and their companion AM two at least, often three. I can recall on the weekends calling the DJs at WBLY, Springfield to inform them that their FM was off the air. If and when HD becomes viable, I sincerely feel it shall never be, then the auxiliary facilities will follow.
One of my concerns for the long-term viability of HD is the practice of running at just 10% of the power granted to their main channels. Even if there was widespread availability of HD as described by Lew in his post above, it would still be a frustrating experience with their weaker signals dropping frequently in large areas of the metro. For example, Costa Mesa is quite a ways away from Mt. Wilson but has very good reception of the DMA's analog signals, but less so of the HD signals.Lkeller said:
Similaly in the Bay Area where Lew is....Silicon Valley has decent reception of the SFO stations, but less so of their HD side channels.
As of noon today,in south OC I get everything except KBIG and KIIS. And I too give BIG kudos to all the engineers involved in the Great Wilson "Antenna Farm" But as to HD popularity, how many regular average listeners still are unaware of HD Radio? Right now we are with HD Radio, where FM was in 1950.
David at USC said:
1%, not 10%.
In San Jose (embeded market) historically there are just a touch under 50 shares 25-54 for top 10 stations. Less than a quarter of this goes to the 4 SF commercial FMs, while about half goes to the local South Bay FMs. This is because many of the SF stations have very marginal signals in Santa Clara County. The reception of SF FMs may be OK for the biggest signals in cars, but in buildings and homes, it's less than perfect.
Not a viable reason to have HD. In the old days auxiliary service used SCA and now with the travails facing broadcasters many AM signals and LPFM can be available for those services. If not that there is the internet and podcasting which is a more appealing solution, economically and technically for getting your message out there. [/quote]
SCA's have just horrible audio, which is why some SCA users want to move to an HD channel. And there is more demand than available for-lease channels in some markets.
I hardly ever saw three AM rigs, and that goes back to the late 50's. In fact, until I got to KHJ I had never seen an AM with more than 2 working ones, and the auxiliary was usually the one the main replaced... in other words, old. Since the late 70's, I've seen FMs with two transmitters, and many with auxiliary sites or aux antenna installs.
SCA's have just horrible audio, which is why some SCA users want to move to an HD channel. And there is more demand than available for-lease channels in some markets.
I hardly ever saw three AM rigs, and that goes back to the late 50's. In fact, until I got to KHJ I had never seen an AM with more than 2 working ones, and the auxiliary was usually the one the main replaced... in other words, old. Since the late 70's, I've seen FMs with two transmitters, and many with auxiliary sites or aux antenna installs.
I hardly ever saw three AM rigs, and that goes back to the late 50's. In fact, until I got to KHJ I had never seen an AM with more than 2 working ones, and the auxiliary was usually the one the main replaced... in other words, old. Since the late 70's, I've seen FMs with two transmitters, and many with auxiliary sites or aux antenna installs.
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It was not that uncommon in small town Ohio where many AM stations were daytimers with remote control and the transmitter in a corn field. Mice would crawl into the rigs at night when the filaments had been left on and the transmitter would fail at sign on. If the auxiliary also was invaded, didn't happen often but it could, they would sometimes have a third transmitter which was left cold so it took a bit to get it up to speed. Took less time than waking the CE and getting him out to the boonies to remove the fried varmint. Of course some of those were sorry rigs of questionable ancestry. One I saw was on old police radio from when they used the upper AM band before broadcasters went all the way to 1600. It was a Collins outfit which had seen service some place in West Virginia, Charleston as I recall, before it got re-purposed. I never saw it active, just gathering dust in a corner though.
The larger stations in the bigger cities had attended transmitters and regular daily maintenance in a rodent free environment so many had only the main rig while some still had the most recent past main as a spare. But my point was that the importance of staying on the air which is tied to loss of revenue when off is what drives the installation of backup facilities. Before FM was the main medium there were few if any backup FM transmitters, of course that could also have been because as the newer medium there were not that many retired units to draw upon.
If as you have stated their comes a time when users are leasing the extra HD channels or other revenue generating use is developed there will be a valid reason to have an auxiliary facility. It could be that your special interests and under served language speakers may come to be that source of cash. If so HD will go on, if not it will die because there is not a significant demand by listeners, nor programmers, for those channels. On the other hand I can recall when cable TV promised a channel for every interest and profession. How has that worked out?
nmoore6676 said:
It only took me one time to learn to solder screen, cut to accomodate cables, around all punch holes in transmitters. In about 1966, my "home built" FM transmitter was the subject of a 6 AM call. The morning shift person said that it would not turn on, and that it smelled bad. I asked if it smelled like a burnt appliance or burn motor oil (sign of a toasted component or power supply capacitor or such). No, it didn't. It was, to quote, a smell "like death."
I got up and went to the station, and found that a rat had come in a punch hole that I had cleverly made too large for ventilation. The rat had apparently gone to sleep on top of a warm filter capacitor, and when the transmitter was turned on, he became a nice pole to pole shunt, until he exploded.
I went to the closest pharmacy and got surgical gloves, and alcohol and a bunch or syringes, plus some makeup brushes. I spen the next hour or so carfully brushing ratgut off the inside of the transmitter, and cleaning any residue with alcohol. At that point, I replaced the cap which, even if functional, was charred and likely a future trouble spot. At about 9 AM, we went on the air.
Not only did I put screen on the punches, I decided then and there that we would be 24/7 from then on.
No, I did not have an Aux. This was the first FM in northern South America, and even when home built, the equipment cost vastly more than it did in the US. We just overbuilt... 2 kw capacity power supplies for a 1 kw transmitter, etc. THis was as much for reliability as for the fact we were at 10,000 feet AMSL.
A year later, because we were billing so well, we put the main transmitter at about 13,000 feet and kept the previous site. If either failed, the operator at the other site (they lived there and made $15 a month to boot!) was called to light up the other transmitter. To back that up, we put a third transmitter at city level at our studios.
KBIG Now Broadcasting Back In HD Thanks Go To David For For Info Why it was Out
ercjncpr said:
The hot rat only lasted a fraction of a second before it became a rat grenade and exploded. I still remember how absolutely awful it smelled.
Once had to remove a dead cow from the tower base... learned that they like to lick the base insulator for salt. Also learned that they are hard to move if you are alone.
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