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HD In the fringes?

SayNoToIBOC said:
Keep blowing hot air - everyone at rec.radio.shortwave have called your bluff - even Brenda Ann caught you in a lie ! Oh, I would say that Mark Ramsey is in radio - another bluff !
Click to expand...

Brenda Ann is a noted anti-HD militant, who states she has neither listened to nor would buy an HD radio. Now that is a source worthy of respect: "I have no clue if it sounds good or not, but I dislike it."

There is no lie... and this is why you will not be able to post to the contrary.

There are differences of opinion, mostly having to do with listening levels to adjacents and night AM usage. Fortunately, I have access to Arbitron and the posters there do not.

I have stated facts to an unrelenting crowd who do not want to recognize that AM radio can not satisfy DXers when the whole band is in jeopardy. There is a small group of DXers in the last decade who believe their job is to criticize radio, whether it be consolidation, programming or engineering. It makes me regret having spent so many years in the hobby, even as an officer of one of the clubs. It is sort of like having one of your children turn out to be a criminal...

Mark Ramsey is not in radio any more than a shop foreman at BE in Quincy is in radio. He provides a service to radio, mostly Auditorium Music Tests (AMT's) and percepturals regarding programming. A person in radio works at a radio station. A person like Mark is a "supplier" and is hired to do a specfic job, but is not part of the staff of a station, any more than the outside auditors are.
 
I will have to remember to copy your post on rec.radio.shortwave - actually, I wil do it right after my post.
VERY few people on rec.radio.shortwave support HD/IBOC, because they know it is trashing the broadcast bands. You have just stated YOUR opinions and have not backed up your "facts", with one link/article. See, of course you flame Mark Ramsey, because you know he has excellent qualifications and knows the truth about HD/IBOC. And, may I remind you of Dr. Conrad's remarks, about HD Radio - oh, is HE is the broadcast business ?

http://www.audiographics.com/agd/061206-1.htm

David wrote: "It makes me regret having spent so many years in the hobby, even as an officer of one of the clubs. It is sort of like having one of your children turn out to be a criminal..." :D

Man, this is GREAT !
 
SayNoToIBOC said:
I will have to remember to copy your post on rec.radio.shortwave - actually, I wil do it right after my post.
VERY few people on rec.radio.shortwave support HD/IBOC, because they know it is trashing the broadcast bands. You have just stated YOUR opinions and have not backed up your "facts", with one link/article. See, of course you flame Mark Ramsey, because you know he has excellent qualifications and knows the truth about HD/IBOC. And, may I remind you of Dr. Conrad's remarks, about HD Radio - oh, is HE is the broadcast business ?

http://www.audiographics.com/agd/061206-1.htm

David wrote: "It makes me regret having spent so many years in the hobby, even as an officer of one of the clubs. It is sort of like having one of your children turn out to be a criminal..." :D
Click to expand...

You don't read very well. I have not "flamed" Mark Ramsey. But, I believe he is wrong about HD because he is not in radio. He is a supplier to radio, and does not know the actually development process of HD and does not see the dynamics on fring listening (none), skywave listening (none) because he does not see Arbitron data day to day and is not an engineer.

Mark has the perspective of an outsider who is not part of the process. I have been buying outside radio reaseaarch since the 70's, and had not heard of Mark until very recent years. From the opinions of some of his past clients, he does a great job on AMTs and perceptuals, and is helpful in analysis. Of course, right after analysis is where outsiders are shown the door...

Dr. Conrad fails to see that there is no usage of adjacents and skywave, so there is nothing to lose. There is, however, a great deal to gain in the local market via quality improvements, additional channels and the perception that radio is keeping up with trends and the digital revolution. In radio, we don't care if we lose out of market listeners. We care about in-market ones, and that is in agreement with the policy of localism set by the FCC in the 40's by which the US was not given any high power AM or FM stations so we would be FORCED to be local.

The couple of hundred DXers out there will just have to move on. To the rest of us, interference only exists if somehting which is being used is interferred with. This is not the current case.
 
Let's see, what kind of reaction we get on rec.radio.shortwave ! Boy, your butt must be on the line at Univision -same old, same old ! You have done nothing, but try and discredit Dr. Conrad and Mark Ramsey - but, I wonder, why ? :D
 
SayNoToIBOC said:
Let's see, what kind of reaction we get on rec.radio.shortwave ! Boy, your butt must be on the line at Univision -same old, same old ! You have done nothing, but try and discredit Dr. Conrad and Mark Ramsey - but, I wonder, why ? :D
Click to expand...

Why? Because I think they are wrong. Mark does not have the job of programming, selling and engineering a radio station day to day, and he lacks perspective. Dr. Conrad, who I knew from Cleveland, is pushing 80, and is really out of touche with the reality of radio use. I admire him for his work with the Cleveland Symphony and other Severance Center cultural activities, but times have changed in radio yet he has not.

There are flaws in two of Conrad's main arguments. He says HD does not sound better. It does non both AM and FM. the FM lacks the analog preemphasis corve, and stations will not and can not process digital the way they do analog (to overcome noise). Second, he talks about HD covering only 60% of what he describes to be the 54 dbu contour. Well, 95% of listening is in the 64 dbu contour, so the HD coverage is just as good as the analog coverage in home and work radios (where 70% of listening takes place).

So, without these two arguments, Dr. COnrad is just mashing sour grapes at haviing sold his B and having to try to make an A viable in Cleveland.
 
And, you are squirming at Univision ! Again, just your personal opinions, and no FACTS to back them up ! :D
 
SayNoToIBOC said:
And, you are squirming at Univision ! Again, just your personal opinions, and no FACTS to back them up ! :D
Click to expand...
}

Why would we be squirming? we are in the only sector of the industry with growth!

I have cited real audience facts over and over. You have selective vision.

What Ramsey and Conrad cite is either wrong (Conrad) or wrong and biased (ramsey). Ramsey is amusing in saying raido has never had to move hardware! How about FM radios, and then FM stereo? Just a bit blinded by not being in radio, that's all.
 
Looks like iBiquity/HD Radio is a squirming - check out my new thread !!!
 
To continue with the original question:

I live in the fringe of 2 markets. I have a BA reciever. I'm on my 3rd after 2 exchanges due to sensitivity issues. I have the dipole wire antenna.

I can get almost all the Chicago HD FMs (which are 60 miles south of here) upstairs. The antenna has to be adjusted very specificly. One bump will make it all drop out. But they come in.

Milwaukee 30 miles north, some come in. Most don't.


Analog side: I have noticed no side channel interference and I still can DX. However one of the locals that went HD hasn't had a good analog signal here since. I can barely pick it up anymore. It used to be very strong.
I'm guessing issues with the old transmitter. Not the first time they've had problems.


Only REAL problems with the analog side of things caused by HD was the processing. I've heard too many stations (especially in Chicago) with their processing going down the toilet. Just plain bad. These are likely due to poor HD installations because there are many other HD stations that have no processing issues at all.


Once HD is able to bump up from under 100 watts it'll do just fine in the fringe areas.


And on a side note, even if you can't get any HD signals, these radios are great on the analog side. AM forget about it. AM reception on these things is awful.

But FM, its the cure for bleed over static from adjacents. I live about 2 miles from a 50kw FM on 95.1

I never ever ever was able to hear ANYTHING on 94.9 with the 95.1 until I got this radio. Now its possible.
 
Very interesting report. I wish I could find out why the great variance in radios. The first BA I purchased was deaf as a stone. The replacement has been fine. Initially I used rabbit ears because the wire which came with the radio ddin't work very well. The rabbit ears were about as effective as the dipole, which I now use. However, my radios AM works really well. I can hear stations on this radio I can't on others. I've heard stations from Alabama, Pennsylvania and Ohio, amongst others which I have never heard before. the selectivity is amazing. I know this is first generation technology, still I wish B.A. who has to be aware of the problems, could explain why some radios work well and others don't. It seems more a problem with manufacturing, than design.
 
Here is a quote from Davideduardo:
It makes me regret having spent so many years in the hobby, even as an officer of one of the clubs. It is sort of like having one of your children turn out to be a criminal...
Click to expand...
What is your constant obsession against DXers, and why are you inferring they are criminal?
I rarely DX, but it is the most benign hobby imaginable. Why all the continuous vicious attacks on DXers?
They are entitled to listen to their radios any way they want to, and to have and express their own opinions as well.
Why does that anger HD Radio/IBiquity supporters so much?
Fear that DXers are probably are right, and HD Radio is going nowhere?
DXers are people too. DXers have the same right to express their opinions, have them heard, and taken into consideration that you do. In America everyone gets exactly one vote.
 
I am a DXer as well as a broadcast engineer by profession. That said, Broadcasting is an industry, not a hobby. DXing won't go away because of IBOC, it willl change. The point most of us are making is that while DXing is fine, it isn't more important than the survival of the industry. If the choice is to be between the commercial viability of broadcasting/ providing a public service and the hobby of DXing, which do you believe takes precident?
 
I think you have the cart before the horse again. Broadcasters are licensed to serve the listeners, not the other way around.
 
SUPERCASTER said:
Here is a quote from Davideduardo:
It makes me regret having spent so many years in the hobby, even as an officer of one of the clubs. It is sort of like having one of your children turn out to be a criminal...
Click to expand...
What is your constant obsession against DXers, and why are you inferring they are criminal?
I rarely DX, but it is the most benign hobby imaginable. Why all the continuous vicious attacks on DXers?
They are entitled to listen to their radios any way they want to, and to have and express their own opinions as well.
Why does that anger HD Radio/IBiquity supporters so much?
Fear that DXers are probably are right, and HD Radio is going nowhere?
DXers are people too. DXers have the same right to express their opinions, have them heard, and taken into consideration that you do. In America everyone gets exactly one vote.
Click to expand...

Huh? Who said DXers were criminal? My usage of an analogy was a way of saying that I am surprised how DXing, which began as an aid to radio staitons, has turned to be an adversary and a pretty nasty one.

When I began DXing, stations were treated as friends. Station visits were part of NRC and IRCA conventions. Station memorabilia was collected, along with veries. Today, when AM radio is at a crisis stage, DXers insult radio and criticize the need to change to survive.

Sure, DXers can express thier opinions. But when they threaten the survival of AM, and there is no interest in learning, I find the atmosphere to be particularly noxious. Most DXers are not in radio. And today, they do not seem to want to learn about radio. It is, simply, very sad.

But my main problem is that DXers are seemingly incapable of understanding that radio's consumer is nearly 100% in the groundwave primary contour on AM, and the advertiser is nearly 100% interested int he local metro, period. Nobody, advertiser or listener alike, is interested in fringe or skywave coverage.
 
"I think you have the cart before the horse again. Broadcasters are licensed to serve the listeners, not the other way around."

That is what I said. However, broadcasters are not responsible for serving the DX hobby.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Why? Because I think they are wrong. Mark does not have the job of programming, selling and engineering a radio station day to day, and he lacks perspective. Dr. Conrad, who I knew from Cleveland, is pushing 80, and is really out of touche with the reality of radio use. I admire him for his work with the Cleveland Symphony and other Severance Center cultural activities, but times have changed in radio yet he has not.
Click to expand...

Actually, Dr. Conrad was one of the biggest proponents of HD Radio when he sold 95.5 here and decamped to 104.9/Lorain and 1420 in Cleveland. Some of his statements at the time (2001) almost sounded like those "brand new, modern world" films you used to see back in the 50's, touting the conveniences of future appliances.

So, without these two arguments, Dr. COnrad is just mashing sour grapes at haviing sold his B and having to try to make an A viable in Cleveland.
Click to expand...

While I would not go that far, I do think you've got a point here. Whoever was selling Dr. Conrad on HD apparently led him to believe that he could squeeze digital quality sound out of his new Avon Lake-based rimshot, and overcome a lot of the analog noise on the fringes of his signal. That would appear to not be the case, though I haven't driven around town with an HD Radio unit to confirm it myself. (104.9 gets a slightly scratch, mostly listenable signal down here.)

The other problem here is that Dr. Conrad and the WCLV folks didn't hang onto what is now once again WHK/1420 in Cleveland. In 2001, he was touting the sound improvements digital radio would bring to the AM dial, and he'd have his good-quality in-market signal on AM 1420.

But WCLV didn't use 1420 as a classical in-market repeater from the start. Instead, the station adopted the standards format bounced off of then-WRMR/850 in 2001, when sports WKNR moved there from 1220. They eventually called it "classic pops". The WCLV Foundation folks later sold 1420 back to Salem, which operates it today as conservative news/talk WHK.

So, we've got two things vexing Dr. Conrad here - the inability of HD/IBOC to overcome analog noise on the edge of his Lorain-licensed FM, and his own sale of the AM he originally bought to overcome those signal issues.

And by extension, a third problem - the so-far miniscule market penetration of HD Radio, which, even if he had held onto 1420 and made it a classical repeater of WCLV, would not help his dilemma much at all... that is, replacing a full-market FM signal with a full-market FM-quality sound elsewhere.
 
I don't own a HD version of the Receptor, but the older analog version is what I use daily for a clock radio. It is a very good FM receiver, having very little problems with adjacent channel interference. It works quite well with the "rat tail" antenna. I'm sure it would be excellent with an outdoor antenna. I'd put it on the same level as a really good car radio. The AM side is not as wonderful, but still OK. During the daytime, it seems to lack sensitivity. An external antenna would undoubtedly help. But at night, the AM band comes alive, even with the built in ferrite loop. AM actually sounds very good on this radio.

The analog only version is half the price of the HD version, and I'd highly recommend it. Of course, if you are in a market with significant HD to listen to (I'm not), the HD version might be worth it, despite its reported problems. Even if HD never flies, it is a good sounding radio.
 
and it's stereo with a remote control and 2 alarms. I am in a market with many HD stations and with it's DSP (if you have a good one) and the right antenna it's an amazing little radio and sounds great when the IBOC kicks in.
 
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