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HD INTERFERENCE

TOM,

IBOC doesnt belong on the analog airwaves PERIOD!!

YOU GUYS ARE 1 STATION THAT IS INTERFERING WITH THINGS!!!!

Why are you spending all that $$$ on what 3 people maybe??

Why dont you be the first ones to take a stand and drop this crap and tell the fcc to take a leap somewhere!!!

You guys are a good station,why mess it up with this crap??
 
With all due respect, "The Dude", the airwaves are neither analog, nor digital. Digital may cause interference to analog (or not, depending upon circumstance), but not because the "airwaves are analog". Instead, it's largely because there are too damn many stations, spaced too damn close together...which has gotten FAR worse in the last 25 years or so. In the 80s, it seemed as if a new AM station came on every few weeks in my area! Many of them were in towns too small to support the station(s), and they've (the stations(s) suffered ever since, usually adopting some annoying minority format like gospel. Just what the world needs, another 1kw daytimer, or graveyarder, with screamin' preachers! But now they're just as much licensed broadcasters as the 50kw flamethrowers with huge audiences.

The AM band is probably just too tightly spaced for digital with no interference (unlike FM where HD functions rather nicely!) But regardless of how one feels about the subject, the fact that future media, whether audio, video, text, or whatever will be delivered as packets of data rather than analog waveforms is impossible to argue (imho). It's how we're exchanging views now! So we've got digital transmission on AM. It isn't ideal. Neither was AM Stereo, but it often worked rather well. I'm hopeful that HD can too, with some creative engineering.

Yes, we should have had a separate band for digital. And ostriches should have been more aerodynamic! Perhaps then both (digital radio, and ostriches) could have flown effortlessly! As is both can probably be made to fly in time. It's just going to take a good deal more effort!
 
AM stereo "isn't compromised"? Uh, maybe you slept through the 70s, 80s, and 90s! AM Stereo has MANY compromises. First of all, the quadrature modulation used is compromised to make it "compatible" (the "C" in "C-Quam") because pure Quadrature modulation would result in horrendous distortion. Second, AM Stereo stations sacrifice a little bit of loudness for the stereo signal. It's small, but it's there. Third, there is a REAL price in loudness paid by putting lots of energy into the octave between 7 1/2 and 15khz. That energy isn't heard by the vast majority of your listeners, but eats modulation...comprimising loudness and coverage area over what it would be with a narrower-bandwidth, mono signal. LOUDNESS is perceived almost entirely in the midrange, where God tuned out ears to be most sensitive. "Excess" energy above that subtracts directly from loudness.

Then there's the "compromise" of the AM Stereo system itself. People who can't hear platform motion either have crappy radios, or aren't that familiar with what good stereo sounds like. It's there. The alternative is, as pointed out earlier, blending to mono. Which kind of defeats the "Stereo" in "AM Stereo". Don't get me long, I'm no Leonard Kahn fan. C-Quam leaves the station pristine. But it sure as hell doesn't stay that way...not once Mother Nature gets her hands on it a few miles out. Especially at night!

Now FM stereo sure as hell ain't perfect. Prior to it's adoption, FM radio was nearly as quiet as today's cds, with 20khz frequency response! And that noise preformance and frequency response were maintained a L O N G WAY from the tower! Stereo was great, and no-doubt gave FM stations an important advantage. But it WAS A COMPROMISE! Each new technology is a COMPROMISE. We get some benefit, but also lose something...especially when trying to shoehorn new types of service (digital audio, color tv, FM and AM Stereo, SCAs, etc) into existing spectrum. The FCC (and others) may TRY to give us something new, but unless new spectrum is offered for the new services, something is ALWAYS lost. It's ALWAYS a compromise! A gallon just won't fit in a pint container. Now a QUART might just fit in there!
 
IBOC interference from KMOX and WRVA is causing a LOT of noise on WDFN in my location. I'm about 30 miles due north from WDFN's transmitter site.

I now have to position my AM loop antenna "just right" to get a listenable signal on my home audio receiver.
 
MarkW said:
IBOC interference from KMOX and WRVA is causing a LOT of noise on WDFN in my location. I'm about 30 miles due north from WDFN's transmitter site.

I now have to position my AM loop antenna "just right" to get a listenable signal on my home audio receiver.
Doesn't their primary lobe go north and are you inside their protected contour? Their signal can't be that bad to the north since their COL is Detroit.
 
The Dude said:
TOM,

IBOC doesnt belong on the analog airwaves PERIOD!!

YOU GUYS ARE 1 STATION THAT IS INTERFERING WITH THINGS!!!!

Why are you spending all that $$$ on what 3 people maybe??

Why dont you be the first ones to take a stand and drop this crap and tell the fcc to take a leap somewhere!!!

You guys are a good station,why mess it up with this crap??

Hey Dude. Just a friendly question. You have been on this board for quite a while screaming about interfering with things and using lots of exclamation points. What stations is WOR interfering with that has you so "Exclamatory" and where are you listening to that station?

Clouseau
 
Im just mad about the whole thing!!!

I cant hear 800 anymore,i cant hear 820,830 i cant hear stuff i used to hear without crap in it now!!!!!

AM stereo was not compromising my friend,it didnt do what IBOC is doing!!!!

Its a shame it failed cause is was MUCH BETTER than this!!!


Im sorry if i seem mad,i have alot on my mind right now.....
 
I am also mad at this technology. I live in the local service area of 2 Montreal radio stations that are very hurt by this technology, and as a Canadian I can't do a damn thing about it, and apparently there's not much the stations can do about it either, they can complain, but what will an American station do? They don't care that their hurting a station in another country trying to serve it's LOCAL audience. I had 2 AM stereo radios, I loved them, I loved the distance I got, the clarity, and yes, weak AM stations actually sounded LOUDER in stereo. I showed 3 friends last night what digital was doing, including the affected Canadian stations. They said it was "unacceptable" and asked why this was allowed. One 2 of them said they were occasional listeners to CINF 690, not being radio listeners much to begin with, but they still like the station, and were upset by the noise that was present due to IBOC. You want to hear real damage? You should hear 1090 up here, with both WTIC and WTAM in IBOC....what was once an amazingly clear signal is now non-existant, I can't null out the interference, since both WTIC and WBAL come from the same direction and if I turn the radio the other way, WTAM takes it out.
 
Another example of the interference, our local sports station, the team 1200 is a fifty k radio station, less than an hour ago I heard iboc hash underneath of it from WPHT 1210, I tuned into 1220 and heard the hash as loud as it could possibly be. Hockey starts next month (not that I care) and lets just say when a game is on, 1200 is THE MOST LISTNED TO station in Ottawa, and can you imagine how many pissed of Ottawa Senators and 67's fans we're going to have, especially those driving on the highway, having to deal with that noise? Although it was slight, it was still noticable. Now I'll have to find another station for monday night fo0tball on the way home from work...oh wait, I can't anymore, except for the team 990 from Montreal...until WMVP turns it on at night as well.
 
Guys - it's fine to blog but if you want to eventually get something done about the IBOC interference problems, you have to make a formal complaint. Write to (and you CAN'T e-mail) --

Federal Communications Commission
Enforcement Bureau
Technical and Public Safety Division
445 12th St SW
Washington, DC 20554

Include:

1. Callsign/address of the station being interfered with
2. Phone number and contact person, if possible, at the station (get their GM's name)
3. "Detailed description" of the nature (which would be 'IBOC-AM sidebands" consisting of "pink noise")
4. Duration and frequency of occurrence (nighttime and critical hours)
5. Callsign/address of the station(s) causing the interference
6. Frequency(ies) of the station(s) causing the interference
7. Mention Commission order permitting IBOC-AM operation commencing 9-14-07 and victim station's operating authority
8. Any documentation, such as an audio recording on CD

Get friends and family to write similar letters. Canadian friends, mention that you intend to complain to Industry Canada/Canada DOC as well. Keep your complaint professional and credible and stick to the facts. COPY THE STATION(S) INVOLVED with your complaint, which has to be kept in the station's "public inspection file."

While you're at it: complain directly to the interfering and victim stations' management. Don't waste your time with the chief engineer who was probably ordered to install HD-AM against his/her better professional judgement. Complain to the GM and the Sales Manager, the latter usually having a lot of clout within internal station politics. If it looks like HD is going to be a management pain or a big cost factor, they'll more quickly tire of the IBOC experiment. Radio managers as a group don't like much controversy and distraction, especially when the root cause doesn't generate revenue.
 
Re: HD INTERFERENCE - NIGHTMARE WORST CASE SCENARIO!!!

Tom Ray said:
rbrucecarter5 said:
WOAI destroys KFXR Dallas - IN THEIR PROTECTED CONTOURS.

The shocker - the local 700 here in the area has IBOC hiss on it - so does WGN - BAD. The only culprit I could find - WOR!!!! I never get WOR analog in here because of KEEL. To check it, I nulled in the direction of NY - sidebands null.

Bruce:

1) Where are you listening?
2) What about the Nighttime Interference Free contour? There is no guarantee of protection outside that contour at night. The "protected contour" is only there as a reference for station spacing.

Tom Ray
WOR
 
Re: HD INTERFERENCE - NIGHTMARE WORST CASE SCENARIO!!!

Tom Ray said:
1) Where are you listening?
2) What about the Nighttime Interference Free contour? There is no guarantee of protection outside that contour at night. The "protected contour" is only there as a reference for station spacing.

Tom Ray
WOR

When I listened to KFXR, it was in the car from Grapevine, TX, back to Plano. A large portion of the drive was inside the protected contours of KFXR - sidebands from WOAI were intense.

I was absolutely amazed to hear the WOR sidebands. I hadn't expected that. The situation is even more unusual - I had forgotten about a new 700 we have in the area - I clearly heard sidebands over it, WGN was almost destroyed. If someone had told me 500 watts in New York would have that type of propagation power, I would have laughed. But when I threw a null towards New York the sidebands disappeared completely. Actually the compass pointed a degree or two South of New York, so maybe it wasn't WOR - it could be something 180 degrees the other direction. I don't think it was KEEL, wrong direction by more than 10 degrees and I don't think they run HD. KGNC is definitely the wrong direction and I know they don't run HD. But they are monster, coming in here daytime.

I am almost tempted to get an HD radio - for the possibility of receiving New York stations in digital!
 
The Dude said:
YOU GUYS ARE 1 STATION THAT IS INTERFERING WITH THINGS!!!!

Why are you spending all that $$$ on what 3 people maybe??

Why dont you be the first ones to take a stand and drop this crap and tell the fcc to take a leap somewhere!!!

You guys are a good station,why mess it up with this crap??

Listen - Tom has been nothing but gracious on this board. I am impressed by his integrity and his candor. I just gave him real reception reports, done as precisely as I can. If there is an issue with WOR interfering with stations halfway across the country, I know he will listen. Frankly, I am amazed at how robust these sidebands are. Don't you realize - this points to an exciting new possibility for DX that we never even imagined? If full digital mode happens, clear reception will be possible, perhaps nationwide or over half the globe! Perhaps, if we can all agree hybrid mode is not the ultimate answer for digital radio, we can lobby for something that makes sense - the extended band, a subset of the AM band, longwave - SOMETHING - for digital only. This has the potential to give crystal clear reception to the very people I was concerned about - the 2/3 of the country that is largely rural with listeners 200, 300 miles from major population centers. I can envision valuable public service - a single high powered digital only AM in the middle of Alaska giving news and information to isolated cabins, etc.

500 watts, throwing a receivable signal 1300 miles - think of the possibility for energy savings for stations! IMPRESSIVE!
 
I am not here to fight with you but I do have a simple question, which you as a licensed station owner might be able to answer. Say a listener complains of interference from a distant IBOC station to their local radio station. We know that all consumer radios have filtering whose selectivity varies with the strength of a specific signal. As an example, if you are .5 miles from a 50 KW array, your radio might overload with the high level of RF it has to deal with and that station might appear to be operating over 2 or three adjacent channels away from its fundamental. Now take the same radio and try listening at a distance of 10 miles and low and behold, there is no apparent interference to the stations neighbors. So is the interference really there? Only a properly calibrated spectrum analyzer can say for sure. Who amongst us owns a spectrum analyzer? With that said, will all of these so called nuisance complaints be acted upon by the FCC or will they end up in the commissions working folder which never gets attended to?
 
While you're at it: complain directly to the interfering a
nd victim stations' management. Don't waste your time with the chief engineer who was probably ordered to install HD-AM against his/her better professional judgement.

A bit of assumption on your part.

If it looks like HD is going to be a management pain or a big cost factor, they'll more quickly tire of the IBOC experiment.

I don't know if the news has reached the hinterlands, the FCC has given formal approval for iboc. The experimental period is over.

Radio managers as a group don't like much controversy and distraction, especially when the root cause doesn't generate revenue.

Right, they will have spent upwards of 75K on the iboc equipment as well as facility improvements as a "distraction" that they don't believe will pay off in the future.

There may well be controversy and lawsuits over AM iboc, but to have standing the complaintant will have to show damage to their rightfull protected area.

From what I've heard so-far, I no longer expect that "flood" of complaints that many predicted.

I somewhat surprised by the tone and content of your postings. here you are, a station owner writing as though you were some frustrated DX'er. AM radio is an antique a dear one, but you can't ignore the obvious. Without something that improves what the public hears stations such as yours will fall to religion, vanity projects or sleazy pay-to-play within a decade.

Lino

Lino
 
R.F. Burns said:
I am not here to fight with you but I do have a simple question, which you as a licensed station owner might be able to answer. Say a listener complains of interference from a distant IBOC station to their local radio station. We know that all consumer radios have filtering whose selectivity varies with the strength of a specific signal. As an example, if you are .5 miles from a 50 KW array, your radio might overload with the high level of RF it has to deal with and that station might appear to be operating over 2 or three adjacent channels away from its fundamental. Now take the same radio and try listening at a distance of 10 miles and low and behold, there is no apparent interference to the stations neighbors. So is the interference really there? Only a properly calibrated spectrum analyzer can say for sure. Who amongst us owns a spectrum analyzer? With that said, will all of these so called nuisance complaints be acted upon by the FCC or will they end up in the commissions working folder which never gets attended to?

Over a year ago, I investigated a case of interference from a non-directional 50 kW station (that had recently turned on IBOC) to a smaller 2.5 kW station operating on the 4th-adjacent channel in a neighboring county about 30 miles away. The hiss was audible on my Blaupunkt car radio within several miles of the 50 kW and affected some area within the smaller station's 2 mV/m contour. Some regular listeners had complained to the owner of the smaller station about the noise increase -- it was a significant rise in the noise floor, about 10 to 15 dB. A retired FCC monitoring-station employee living in the area also verified the problem on his receiver.

I do own a recent-vintage R&S spectrum analyzer, so I drove to the area and took some measurements on the IBOC station using a shielded loop, and their transmitter appeared to comply with the NRSC-5 limit at 40 kHz from the analog channel.

After thinking this over and running some calculations, I concluded that the problem stemmed from a third-order "2A-B" intermod product being generated in the receiver. The strong 50 kW analog carrier was able to pass through the first tuned RF stage and drive the front end into non-linearity, allowing the lower primary group of digital sidebands to mix with the upper group, creating a noise product that could then get through the IF stage and fall atop the desired audio of the 2.5 kW station.

So, although the offending station had a compliant transmitter plant, some listeners within the smaller station's protected contour were experiencing a noise problem -- which is, in fact, new interference -- and suggests the AM IBOC system is not as "compatible" as we were told. As Barry McLarnon has pointed out, AM receivers lack the ability to discriminate against undesired amplitude-modulated noise that falls within the IF passband, which is why we have all these reported problems with IBOC in the AM band.

Fortunately, the system has worked out better in the FM band because those receivers take advantage of the WBFM "capture effect".
 
Play Freebird said:
R.F. Burns said:
I am not here to fight with you but I do have a simple question, which you as a licensed station owner might be able to answer. Say a listener complains of interference from a distant IBOC station to their local radio station. We know that all consumer radios have filtering whose selectivity varies with the strength of a specific signal. As an example, if you are .5 miles from a 50 KW array, your radio might overload with the high level of RF it has to deal with and that station might appear to be operating over 2 or three adjacent channels away from its fundamental. Now take the same radio and try listening at a distance of 10 miles and low and behold, there is no apparent interference to the stations neighbors. So is the interference really there? Only a properly calibrated spectrum analyzer can say for sure. Who amongst us owns a spectrum analyzer? With that said, will all of these so called nuisance complaints be acted upon by the FCC or will they end up in the commissions working folder which never gets attended to?

Over a year ago, I investigated a case of interference from a non-directional 50 kW station (that had recently turned on IBOC) to a smaller 2.5 kW station operating on the 4th-adjacent channel in a neighboring county about 30 miles away. The hiss was audible on my Blaupunkt car radio within several miles of the 50 kW and affected some area within the smaller station's 2 mV/m contour. Some regular listeners had complained to the owner of the smaller station about the noise increase -- it was a significant rise in the noise floor, about 10 to 15 dB. A retired FCC monitoring-station employee living in the area also verified the problem on his receiver.

I do own a recent-vintage R&S spectrum analyzer, so I drove to the area and took some measurements on the IBOC station using a shielded loop, and their transmitter appeared to comply with the NRSC-5 limit at 40 kHz from the analog channel.

After thinking this over and running some calculations, I concluded that the problem stemmed from a third-order "2A-B" intermod product being generated in the receiver. The strong 50 kW analog carrier was able to pass through the first tuned RF stage and drive the front end into non-linearity, allowing the lower primary group of digital sidebands to mix with the upper group, creating a noise product that could then get through the IF stage and fall atop the desired audio of the 2.5 kW station.

So, although the offending station had a compliant transmitter plant, some listeners within the smaller station's protected contour were experiencing a noise problem -- which is, in fact, new interference -- and suggests the AM IBOC system is not as "compatible" as we were told. As Barry McLarnon has pointed out, AM receivers lack the ability to discriminate against undesired amplitude-modulated noise that falls within the IF passband, which is why we have all these reported problems with IBOC in the AM band.

Fortunately, the system has worked out better in the FM band because those receivers take advantage of the WBFM "capture effect".


Thanks for the answer. I have a follow-up question. Holding an Extra class amateur license I remember part of the testing had to do with interference concerns. I'll paraphrase; according to the commission, if you are running a "clean" transmitter (harmonic radiation and bandwidth within FCC limits) but your neighbor is complaining about interference to their poorly shielded telephone/TV etc, it is the responsibility of the faulty receiver owner to make the changes needed to prevent the interference, not the operator of the licensed transmitter. Isn't this a similar case, where the transmissions from a broadcaster are clean but the problems reside at the receiver end?
 
Mike Walker expressed his hope:

So we've got digital transmission on AM. It isn't ideal. Neither was AM Stereo, but it often worked rather well. I'm hopeful that HD can too, with some creative engineering.

So now that the degreed engineers have designed and built it, it is up to the engineers in the trenches to actually make it work. I believe this is what you mean by "creative engineering". How classic and appropriate! It makes you respect folks like Tom Ray even more when you realize the incredible burden with which they are faced now.

LinoNYC postulated:

Savage suggested:

While you're at it: complain directly to the interfering and victim stations' management. Don't waste your time with the chief engineer who was probably ordered to install HD-AM against his/her better professional judgement.

A bit of assumption on your part.

It could be a bit of an assumption, but it's not. Remember, these engineers are mostly people who prided themselves on how "good" their AM stations used to sound. Now in general, their stations sound like crap and those which are running IBOC no longer have pristine-sounding analog signals anymore. Most chief engineers resent having to deliberately muck up the sound of their station in order to accommodate the data generator (notice that I didn't say "buzz saw", clouseau!).

AM radio is an antique a dear one, but you can't ignore the obvious. Without something that improves what the public hears stations such as yours will fall to religion, vanity projects or sleazy pay-to-play within a decade.

That improved something is called better programming. In general, radio stations do better when they employ talented people to provide good programming to listeners. No amount of audio quality trickery is going to substitute for good programming.

R.F. Burns asked:

will all of these so called nuisance complaints be acted upon by the FCC or will they end up in the commissions working folder which never gets attended to?

They will end up in the Commission's working folder and never get attended to (or will get summarily dismissed) regardless whether or not they are nuisance or legitimate complaints. That will make no difference. The Commission is not now and will not be in the future serious about investigating AM IBOC interference complaints unless they get forced to adopt a more serious posture through high-level political pressure. There is just too much money riding on the success of iBiquity over IBOC and left to its own devices, the Commission will not interfere with that.
 
R.F. Burns said:
Thanks for the answer. I have a follow-up question. Holding an Extra class amateur license I remember part of the testing had to do with interference concerns. I'll paraphrase; according to the commission, if you are running a "clean" transmitter (harmonic radiation and bandwidth within FCC limits) but your neighbor is complaining about interference to their poorly shielded telephone/TV etc, it is the responsibility of the faulty receiver owner to make the changes needed to prevent the interference, not the operator of the licensed transmitter. Isn't this a similar case, where the transmissions from a broadcaster are clean but the problems reside at the receiver end?

You're correct, as far as the FCC is concerned (I remember this question on my General test, BTW). But if the digital signal is OK as far as the FCC's spectrum-mask requirements are concerned, what do you do? Sue? Yep. Despite the real problems being (1) crappy AM radios and (2) the fact that full-carrrier AM is compatible with no other mode and causes interference to all other modes and there's little anyone can do about either problem, I think this whole AM-vs-HD flap will eventually end up in court.

Once lawyers get involved, that's a whole 'nother story - especially if said lawyers are employed by a giant broadcaster such as Clear Channel or CBS. I'll give you three guesses who'd win a court battle between CBS and (hypothetical) Podunk Broadcasting if Podunk sued to keep an adjacent-channel digital signal coming from a 50 kW station owned by CBS from messing up their staton's coverage. Hint: It ain't Podunk. Chances are Podunk doesn't have the deep pockets that would be required to get such a court case all the way to the Supreme Court - which would probably be required to get AM-digital radio off the air.

It would take a big player-vs-big player suit to get very far, say a WLW-vs-WOR-vs-WGN with all 3 stations mutually interfering with each other (especially WOR getting the worst of it being in the middle). The big boys don't care about the little guy, but I think Clear Channel (WLW) and Tribune (WGN) would take notice if they were sued by Buckley (WOR) for putting digital splatter all over their frequency. Of course the splatter is mutual, but WOR would be getting it from both sides.

I'm not saying it'll happen, but what if it did?
 
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