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HD INTERFERENCE

AM radio is an antique a dear one, but you can't ignore the obvious. Without something that improves what the public hears stations such as yours will fall to religion, vanity projects or sleazy pay-to-play within a decade.

That improved something is called better programming. In general, radio stations do better when they employ talented people to provide good programming to listeners. No amount of audio quality trickery is going to substitute for good programming.

Ah, the classic "programming" argument.

AS in the case with water, AM has found it's level.

For the remaining non-ethnic whites(most over 45): news, sports, "angry white male" (con-talk).

The remainder is divided among: religion, ethnic, and leased.

Other approaches have been tried, none of the ones targeting young listeners have succeded. Young listeners want music, AM's lowfi status is why it lost that audience 30+ years ago.

It could be a bit of an assumption, but it's not. Remember, these engineers are mostly people who prided themselves on how "good" their AM stations used to sound. Now in general, their stations sound like crap and those which are running IBOC no longer have pristine-sounding analog signals anymore. Most chief engineers resent having to deliberately muck up the sound of their station in order to accommodate the data generator

Alot of the self-righteous engineers are the same ones who, at the behest of their employers, sped up music, over eq'ed, squished to the point of flatline, and sometimes, when they thought they could get away with it overmodulated to the point of noticeable distortion. As I have said before, the reason we now have this crummy 10K analog rolloff is because of past indescretions.

For the record, I'am not wild about compressed digital and while I think the iboc system works well for FM, it is something of a hack for AM.

Bearing in mind the fact that it was AM broadcasters and their fears about the future who demanded inclusion in any digital scheme, the laws of physics and the requrement to be compatible, what we've gotten is not too bad.

Lino
 
KeithE4 said:
R.F. Burns said:
Thanks for the answer. I have a follow-up question. Holding an Extra class amateur license I remember part of the testing had to do with interference concerns. I'll paraphrase; according to the commission, if you are running a "clean" transmitter (harmonic radiation and bandwidth within FCC limits) but your neighbor is complaining about interference to their poorly shielded telephone/TV etc, it is the responsibility of the faulty receiver owner to make the changes needed to prevent the interference, not the operator of the licensed transmitter. Isn't this a similar case, where the transmissions from a broadcaster are clean but the problems reside at the receiver end?

You're correct, as far as the FCC is concerned (I remember this question on my General test, BTW). But if the digital signal is OK as far as the FCC's spectrum-mask requirements are concerned, what do you do? Sue? Yep. Despite the real problems being (1) crappy AM radios and (2) the fact that full-carrrier AM is compatible with no other mode and causes interference to all other modes and there's little anyone can do about either problem, I think this whole AM-vs-HD flap will eventually end up in court.

Once lawyers get involved, that's a whole 'nother story - especially if said lawyers are employed by a giant broadcaster such as Clear Channel or CBS. I'll give you three guesses who'd win a court battle between CBS and (hypothetical) Podunk Broadcasting if Podunk sued to keep an adjacent-channel digital signal coming from a 50 kW station owned by CBS from messing up their staton's coverage. Hint: It ain't Podunk. Chances are Podunk doesn't have the deep pockets that would be required to get such a court case all the way to the Supreme Court - which would probably be required to get AM-digital radio off the air.

It would take a big player-vs-big player suit to get very far, say a WLW-vs-WOR-vs-WGN with all 3 stations mutually interfering with each other (especially WOR getting the worst of it being in the middle). The big boys don't care about the little guy, but I think Clear Channel (WLW) and Tribune (WGN) would take notice if they were sued by Buckley (WOR) for putting digital splatter all over their frequency. Of course the splatter is mutual, but WOR would be getting it from both sides.

I'm not saying it'll happen, but what if it did?


If it's of any value to you, I have listened each night to WOR's HD signal and have even heard WLW audio and seen my radios HD light flicker due to WLW's HD. They've had no effect on WOR or my ability to easily decode their IBOC signal. I've been using a Boston Acoustics receptor and an indoor loop antenna. Ive seen about a dozen new (for me) HD stations on the AM bcb which cause my HD light to flicker but so far no digital audio or data has been decoded at my home. As the week goes on I'll have to check out my HDT-1X to see how it does with night time HD.
 
Re: HD INTERFERENCE - Observations and Questions

AM-HD is a case of you "can't have your cake and eat it too". I would love to be able to DX AM BCB stations and receive them in HD, but it's at a huge cost of pissing-off the folks with the 700,000,000 analog AM radios, vs those of us with the 10,000 HD radios.

Regarding night-time AM HD, I receive my two local AMs in HD at night quite well - after turning the loop antenna to their 'sweet spot', and this includes a 1KW graveyard channel. This is on a home Directed Electronics tabletop - I have NOT tried it with their car HD tuner yet.

WJR comes into my station during the day in stereo HD (unless thunderstorms are within 100 miles); however, I have been unable to receive WJR at night in HD for more than a few seconds with all the hetrodyning and cacaphony in their region of the dial at night.

Outside of my two locals, I can get the HD light to blink for about 10 AM HD stations at night, but I have been unable to lock onto 8, and have recieved the PAD info for only two (with a brief 10 second lock).

More digital signal strength = more adjacent channel noise = less analog listeners = more distant digital listeners. So what do you do, what do you do?

New band for AM digital only (26MHz, 220MHz, LW?)? Split the AM band into 'digital only' chunks and 'analog only' chunks, and 'hybrid-only' chunks? How can we make AM HD (at night) "all better", or should we press the FCC for better AM analog tuners with minimum AMAX standards?
 
Re: HD INTERFERENCE - Observations and Questions

JohnnyElectron said:
AM-HD is a case of you "can't have your cake and eat it too". I would love to be able to DX AM BCB stations and receive them in HD, but it's at a huge cost of pissing-off the folks with the 700,000,000 analog AM radios, vs those of us with the 10,000 HD radios.

Regarding night-time AM HD, I receive my two local AMs in HD at night quite well - after turning the loop antenna to their 'sweet spot', and this includes a 1KW graveyard channel. This is on a home Directed Electronics tabletop - I have NOT tried it with their car HD tuner yet.

WJR comes into my station during the day in stereo HD (unless thunderstorms are within 100 miles); however, I have been unable to receive WJR at night in HD for more than a few seconds with all the hetrodyning and cacaphony in their region of the dial at night.

Outside of my two locals, I can get the HD light to blink for about 10 AM HD stations at night, but I have been unable to lock onto 8, and have recieved the PAD info for only two (with a brief 10 second lock).

More digital signal strength = more adjacent channel noise = less analog listeners = more distant digital listeners. So what do you do, what do you do?

New band for AM digital only (26MHz, 220MHz, LW?)? Split the AM band into 'digital only' chunks and 'analog only' chunks, and 'hybrid-only' chunks? How can we make AM HD (at night) "all better", or should we press the FCC for better AM analog tuners with minimum AMAX standards?


Did you know that before IBOC was devised, broadcasters requested new spectrum for their digital broadcasts and that request was denied by the FCC. There is no available spectrum for digital radio in the US. On another note, you are acting as though every one of those billion plus radios (the number keeps increasing) are rendered totally useless by IBOC. That's wishful thinking amongst the anti IBOC group. While the inclusion of IBOC might slightly change the AM landscape, 99% of American stations will suffer little of no interference within their protected contour. May I ask you, what happened to the billion plus 45/LP turntables when the vinyl record went the way of the dinosaur? For many years audiofiles insisted that CD’s just weren’t “musical” and that the sound of an analog recording was far superior. We see how effective their anti CD campaign was. Broadcasters would have loved new spectrum for their use. It would have saved millions of dollars if it had been provided. Sadly they made due with what they were given. Also, could you tell me what AM radios no longer work, now that IBOC is a reality? I have many analog radios as well as 2 GE Super Radios and neither one has any trouble receiving the analog portion of the hybrid signal and none of my radios suffer any IBOC interference. Only DXers who listen to first adjacents for ID purposes will suffer the arrival of IBOC and eventually if analog goes away and digital takes over a new form of DXing will be at hand.
 
It's not that IBOC has rendered radios useless, but it has affected listenability. (That's an old word I just made up.)

When I am in an area with AM HD stations, those stations sound noticeably worse than their counterparts. The high end is just plain gone, replaced with a quiet but noticeable Sssssssssssssssssssss in the background. Unlistenable? Not at all. Annoying? Yes.

Keep in mind this is just with my VW's OEM stereo. I'm sure if I took my old Panasonic shortwave unit or my Sangeo Shack DX-398 that the hiss wouldn't be noticeable, since both in wideband mode are still pretty narrow. In other words, YMMV. If I could lift my JVC home receiver or my father's Onkyo receiver, I am positive that both would be swamped by the co-channel digital hash since both are unusually wide for AM.
 
Zach said:
It's not that IBOC has rendered radios useless, but it has affected listenability. (That's an old word I just made up.)

When I am in an area with AM HD stations, those stations sound noticeably worse than their counterparts. The high end is just plain gone, replaced with a quiet but noticeable Sssssssssssssssssssss in the background. Unlistenable? Not at all. Annoying? Yes.

Keep in mind this is just with my VW's OEM stereo. I'm sure if I took my old Panasonic shortwave unit or my Sangeo Shack DX-398 that the hiss wouldn't be noticeable, since both in wideband mode are still pretty narrow. In other words, YMMV. If I could lift my JVC home receiver or my father's Onkyo receiver, I am positive that both would be swamped by the co-channel digital hash since both are unusually wide for AM.

But on most current AM stations in the United States where talk of one kind or another is the format, what high end above 5K is there. I've been seen as an IBOC apologist when what I am, is someone asking questions. As I've said elsewhere, according to FCC law if the cause of interference is due to a faulty receiver and by faulty I mean a receiver which is unable to reject out of band signals (When you tune to 740 Khz, you shouldn't be also tuning in 730 or 750 Khz as well) then the responsibility falls to the owner of the receiver and not the transmitter which is operating legally. It sounds unfair because for years this wasn't an issue but that doesn't change the law. Again, if I use my Ham radio analogy. I operate a legal ham transmitter which falls well within FCC specs as to harmonic radiation. My neighbor has a poorly designed radio which is unable to deal with the high level of RF I've introduced into the environment. It is up to my neighbor to correct the situation, not me. That's true even though if I weren't operating there wouldn't be any interference. These type of complaints are nothing new.
 
"AM-HD is a case of you "can't have your cake and eat it too". I would love to be able to DX AM BCB stations and receive them in HD, but it's at a huge cost of pissing-off the folks with the 700,000,000 analog AM radios, vs those of us with the 10,000 HD radios."



10,000 HD Radios? Where?
 
Hillbillicus said:
"AM-HD is a case of you "can't have your cake and eat it too". I would love to be able to DX AM BCB stations and receive them in HD, but it's at a huge cost of pissing-off the folks with the 700,000,000 analog AM radios, vs those of us with the 10,000 HD radios."



10,000 HD Radios? Where?

You have to look beyond your town sir (or madam). There are over 100,000 HD radios out there. Heck I have three myself.
 
Well 100,000 is a pretty small percentage of 700,000,000. Even so, I think 700 million is a lowball estimate. That's just over 2 analog radios per person. I have dozens of 'em! There are BILLIONS of analog radios in the US, not hundreds of millions! Still RF is right, the FCC caused whatever problems we're encountering now when they declared that broadcasters must fit a gallon (analog AND digital audio) into a pint container (existing spectrum), because no new spectrum would be allocated for the new digital services. Of course some compromises must be made. We NEVER get something for nothing!
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
Don't you realize - this points to an exciting new possibility for DX that we never even imagined?
What possibilities??

You cant lock on to squat!!

I can listen to TONS of stations AT NIGHT on my radio,tell me how many you can hear in HD??? (In DX land)

Probably none...... Oh yeah,this is the future alright.....

Lets party (hehehehe)
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
500 watts, throwing a receivable signal 1300 miles - think of the possibility for energy savings for stations! IMPRESSIVE!

WLW's 500 watt digital signal is receivable 200 miles distant while trolling on a freeway during the day and reliable in the metro area nears power lines, televisions, etc to about 50 miles. Not bad. I didn't do extensive testing at night yet, but they appear to be able to blanket the immediate area. Their nighttime digital coverage is likely inversely proportional to the strenght of the skip. Ibiquity did all-digital testing in Cincinnati and the tests revealed solid coverage to the 0.1 mv/m contour. Despite the seemingly good coverage for the flamethrowers, I still don't see the hybrid mode be very effective for the regionals and graveyards.
 
R.F. Burns said:
Thanks for the answer. I have a follow-up question. Holding an Extra class amateur license I remember part of the testing had to do with interference concerns. I'll paraphrase; according to the commission, if you are running a "clean" transmitter (harmonic radiation and bandwidth within FCC limits) but your neighbor is complaining about interference to their poorly shielded telephone/TV etc, it is the responsibility of the faulty receiver owner to make the changes needed to prevent the interference, not the operator of the licensed transmitter. Isn't this a similar case, where the transmissions from a broadcaster are clean but the problems reside at the receiver end?

FCC policy on interference remediation is consistently inconsistent:

Example 1: You construct a new 5 kW FM station at the site of a 100 kW FM station that's been in operation for years. The guy who lives across the road claims you're causing interference to his new YORX "entertainment system" purchased the previous week at WalMart -- you investgate and determine it's front end densense of the FM section. Although the 100 kW station is the more likely culprit, the "blanketing rule" says you're stuck fixing the problem because you're the newcomer to the site. But after a year, you're no longer responsible.

Example 2: You want to build a new 10 kW educational FM station on 91.3 MHz in a suburban area served by Channel 6 TV. You show that all other FM stations would be protected against new interfrence. However, the FCC imposes a limit on your ERP such that the total population within the TV 6 interference contour does not exceed 3,000, and you are forced to reduce your proposed power to 2 kW. You might also be required to operate with vertical polarization only - no circular or horizontal. It doesn't matter if the TV sets are actually affected, or if they are connected to cable or satellite, rather than a rooftop antenna or rabbit ears, or if 200 of those people are under age 5 and their parents won't let them watch TV; the rule (47CFR73.525) still applies. However, a commercial broadcaster on 92.1 comes along and proposes to upgrade his 6 kW Class A facility to a Class C1 running 100 kW at a nearby site where the pop density is higher and Channel 6 is weaker, but still provides Grade B service. As long as FM stations are protected, this no problem at all, because the FCC disregards Channel 6 interference caused by any station above 92 MHz.

Example 3: You propose to build a 10 watt FM translator on a rural hilltop within the 54 dBu contour of a Class B commercial FM station 38 miles away, which operates on a third-adjacent channel. The FCC curves predict the Class B has a field strength of 55 dBu at your site, even though the measured signal at 9 meters AGL is 15 dB stronger -- remember this is a hilltop. You must show the FCC that your translator's 95 dBu contour doesn't cover a single house, even the home of the Amish farmer 400 feet away, who doesn't have electricity or own a radio. Otherwise, the application will be rejected.

Example 4: You propose a new 250 watt translator, rebroadcasting a satellite feed from a primary station 2000 miles away. Your translator will operate on a second-adjacent channel to a local non-comm FM, but you demonstrate on paper (a 1943 USGS topo map) that there are no buildings within the predicted interference contour, hence no affected populationThe FCC says it's A-OK.

Example 5: Same location as above, but you now want to build a 100 watt LPFM (with a local studio) on a different frequency that clears all mileage separations except a third-adjacent station a mile away. The FCC (and Congress) say absolutely not!

Example 6: You move a high power FM station to an antenna farm overlooking a busy interstate highway and a receiver-generated intermod product begins blocking out another station in the market (which transmits from a site 8 miles away.) Complaints have been filed by commuters, who are upset with this interference to their car radios. However, the FCC says this is not a legal issue because mobile receivers are exempted from the "blanketing" rule.

Example 7: You want to upgrade an FM station and ask for a waiver of prohibited contour overlap based on a Longley-Rice exhibit showing that a mountain is in the path. The FCC says that not allowed.

Example 8: You apply for a DTV station and perform the interference study using a Longley-Rice exhibit. The FCC says that's OK.

And the list goes on and on. Not sure if I've answered your question, though... ???
 
Re: HD INTERFERENCE - Observations and Questions

R.F. Burns said:
Did you know that before IBOC was devised, broadcasters requested new spectrum for their digital broadcasts and that request was denied by the FCC. There is no available spectrum for digital radio in the US.

I'm not so sure. IMHO, the NAB and their partners in crime just took the wrong approach -- in other words, they screwed up. Why couldn't a few TV channels have been reassigned to aural broadcasting, as part of the DTV transition?

This is what was done in much of Europe; for example, in Germany, all of the incumbent Channel 12 TV stations (223-230 MHz) were moved to UHF and that spectrum (7 MHz worth) is now used by digital radio. It was divided into six subchannels, each with a bitrate roughly equal to a T1 phone line -- about 1.5 Mbps. Several programs are transmitted in each bitstream using TDM.

Think about it: Broadcasters will give up Channels 52-69 in 2009; that's eighteen channels or 108 MHz of spectrum.

Suppose NAB had struck a deal with Congress to retain a block of 3 or 4 former TV channels for digital radio? With 24 MHz of "pure" digital spectrum, think of the great job we could have done! An all-COFDM system, with gap fillers, etc. and none of the disadvantages of IBOC. This would have left the Federal government with 14 channels to auction, rather than 18, but I have a strong feeling all of this could have been negotiated if the NAB hadn't been so set on maintaining the status quo.
 
Mike Walker said:
Well 100,000 is a pretty small percentage of 700,000,000. Even so, I think 700 million is a lowball estimate. That's just over 2 analog radios per person. I have dozens of 'em! There are BILLIONS of analog radios in the US, not hundreds of millions! Still RF is right, the FCC caused whatever problems we're encountering now when they declared that broadcasters must fit a gallon (analog AND digital audio) into a pint container (existing spectrum), because no new spectrum would be allocated for the new digital services. Of course some compromises must be made. We NEVER get something for nothing!

It seems to me like this might be a golden opportunity to force the FCC to reverse themselves and open up new bandwidth for Digital Radio. They could find some if they wanted to. All of us can figure out several suitable scenarios. It's not that hard.

As I've said many times, if we are going to do this, and I really do think digital Radio is the future, let's do it right.
 
Re: HD INTERFERENCE - Observations and Questions

Play Freebird said:
R.F. Burns said:
Did you know that before IBOC was devised, broadcasters requested new spectrum for their digital broadcasts and that request was denied by the FCC. There is no available spectrum for digital radio in the US. 

I'm not so sure.   IMHO, the NAB and their partners in crime just took the wrong approach -- in other words, they screwed up.   Why couldn't a few TV channels have been reassigned to aural broadcasting, as part of the DTV transition? 

This is what was done in much of Europe; for example, in Germany, all of the incumbent Channel 12 TV stations (223-230 MHz) were moved to UHF and that spectrum (7 MHz worth)  is now used by digital radio.   It was divided into six subchannels, each with a bitrate roughly equal to a T1 phone line -- about 1.5 Mbps.  Several programs are transmitted in each bitstream using TDM.

Think about it:  Broadcasters will give up Channels 52-69 in 2009; that's eighteen channels or 108 MHz of spectrum. 

Suppose NAB had struck a deal with Congress to retain a block of 3 or 4 former TV channels for digital radio?   With 24 MHz of "pure" digital spectrum, think of the great job we could have done!  An all-COFDM system, with gap fillers, etc. and none of the disadvantages of IBOC.   This would have left the Federal government with 14 channels to auction, rather than 18, but I have a strong feeling all of this could have been negotiated if the NAB hadn't been so set on maintaining the status quo.

Incumbent broadcasters did not under any circumstances want a new broadcast band. New entrants would have clamored for rights to many of the new channels. That would have defeated the game plan of monopolizing all of the best facilities. So now they are stuck with an HD radio system that offers nothing of benefit or interest to consumers. And now, the backlog of radio stations for sale continues to grow while prices erode and deals fail to reach completion.

The big boys overpaid at the top of the market. They never saw the Internet coming.
 
R.F. Burns said:
But on most current AM stations in the United States where talk of one kind or another is the format, what high end above 5K is there.

Oh I don't know -- vocal harmonics, music beds, commercials, sound effects? If there was no content above 5 kHz on many talking head stations now, how come there's such an obvious difference between those running IBOC and those that aren't? That overhead from 5kHz to 10kHz is added fidelity.

I think one of the biggest obstacles with the success of this system is the diversity of AM radios. Some barely put out 4kHz of audio, some do the full 10kHz or more, if they're older. If all radios sounded like my mum's Mazda OEM unit, no one would be bothered by IBOC hash because that thing is as dull on AM as a plastic knife. But in my VW, the AM section is much wider (oddly, the weaker the signal the wider it gets, go figure!) If I had her car I'd never even try to listen to AM radio because it sounds so bad. It's so dull and hard to understand speech, much less music, that no wonder people are ignoring the band.

Now I understand that at one point the AM mask was 15kHz. Discounting that, if all radios at least passed the current 10kHz, I think AM would be ever so slightly more listenable to the general public, and IBOC would cause a much bigger kerfluffle than it does now.
 
All CBS AMs in the northeast appear to have had HD off this morning. WBZ, KDKA, WTIC, KYW, WINS...all clean and hiss-free. Also WMVP Chicago had it off.
 
Savage said:
All CBS AMs in the northeast appear to have had HD off this morning. WBZ, KDKA, WTIC, KYW, WINS...all clean and hiss-free. Also WMVP Chicago had it off.


WINS isn't running HD yet, nor is KDKA after dark (don't know about daylight hours). WBZ had theirs on at 4:30 AM yesterday morning. WFAN (another CBS property) is running theirs 24/7 other than when the Mets are being broadcast. Oh and WCBS AM has yet to run their IBOC after the Yankees play. I believe they turn it off for the game but have yet to turn it back on post game. It is operating normally in HD mode during the day.
 
Sources in Pittsburgh report that KDKA's Franklin antenna is not getting along well with HD-AM. The problem appears to mimic the difficulties DAs experience if the common point isn't reasonably linear. The noise in analog ramps up and properly decoding digital is difficult.
 
Savage reported:

All CBS AMs in the northeast appear to have had HD off this morning. WBZ, KDKA, WTIC, KYW, WINS...all clean and hiss-free. Also WMVP Chicago had it off.

To which R.F. Burns clarified:

WINS isn't running HD yet, nor is KDKA after dark (don't know about daylight hours). WBZ had theirs on at 4:30 AM yesterday morning. WFAN (another CBS property) is running theirs 24/7 other than when the Mets are being broadcast. Oh and WCBS AM has yet to run their IBOC after the Yankees play. I believe they turn it off for the game but have yet to turn it back on post game. It is operating normally in HD mode during the day.

Where is the "count up" clock so we can see how long it is going to take some of these AM stations to light up night time IBOC? As an extra class radio amateur I would have expected that you might build one of these for this purpose. :)

Savage further expanded:

Sources in Pittsburgh report that KDKA's Franklin antenna is not getting along well with HD-AM. The problem appears to mimic the difficulties DAs experience if the common point isn't reasonably linear. The noise in analog ramps up and properly decoding digital is difficult.

Some of those directional arrays sure are tough to tune up right for the data generator. But it's nothing that a company with deep pockets can't solve with good consulting engineers.

Look for some of these AM stations to light up night time IBOC soon. All of a sudden it appears to be imperative that some of these AM stations get their night time IBOC running since all it takes is for one of them to light up and then all the rest of them start to think that they are missing the boat by not lighting up themselves.

Broadcasting is such a monkey-see, monkey-do business! Not to mention all the just plain monkey-business!
 
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