"HD Power Increase Has Been Trouble-Free"

[radiogooroo]

In the meantime: any reasonable person can see that HD Radio is in trouble. Virtually nobody is installing it, and a large majority of those who have it are refusing any further investment in HD.

There are reasons for this. And the primary one is NOT "a bad economy." If the Dow went to 14,000 and capital gains taxes were eliminated tomorrow, HD would still be stiffing.

True, and I don't think that's all that surprising. HD Radio doesn't have a prayer unless it starts getting installed as standard equipment by at least one of the major automakers. There really isn't any reason for radio as an industry to invest further in a platform virtually nobody can hear. Aside from the startup technology costs, the industry has never invested in HD, and until there's an available audience, I don't see that changing.

But if Ford, or GM, or Toyota happen to start installing it standard, it will be a happy day at BE, Continental, Harris, Nautel, Dielectric, ERI and Jampro.

It's not like the investment has been all that significant thus far. Of all the installations around my market, not a single one has a backup IBOC transmitter, exciter or importer, while many stations here have their analog signals backed up by at least 3 transmitters and 2 antennas on different towers. At this point, the owners here are waiting for automakers to step up and do their part before investing any more.

 

[mmnassour]

HD Radio doesn't have a prayer unless it starts getting installed as standard equipment by at least one of the major automakers.

Then it's dead for two reasons....

1. The automakers aren't about to spend a single cent on a technology that doesn't attract buyers. No one will buy a car for HD radio.

2. Given BMW's experience, it's unlikely that you could convince another automaker to introduce anything that increases warranty claims.

 

[Savage]

Excellent point, mmnassour. BMW's experience has been confirmed by Land Rover - Jaguar - Tata. And Volvo. And despite protestations of support, Ford is hanging back.

I know one car dealer locally who has any awareness of HD Radio. They're a client Ford store, and they're advising people to stay away from HD and get satellite, citing much lower cost, better programming variety and better performance. They know that people will either like satrad and continue the service past the free trial, or they'll ignore it if not. No problem for them either way.

In any case they have confidence XM-Sirius won't generate warranty claims. Dealers hate warranty work. They'll never support any accessory that creates problems and costs money.

 

[mmnassour]

Ummm....don't think for a moment that dealers "hate" warranty work. They get paid for it. However, you're right about problems, neither the dealer nor the manufacturer will push any accessory that creates problems. And yes, they're familiar with Sirius and XM. They know how to trouble-shoot it. The parts are in the pipeline.

That's a good catch on Ford. FoMoCo tried HD in the high-line cars when it had the Premier Auto Group (Jaguar/LR/Volvo/Aston Martin). We all know how THAT turned out. Don't look for HD in the next generation Focus when it hits dealer's lots this fall.

And if any HD supporters don't think the headaches with mobile HD aren't being noticed by the carmakers that might be on the fence, they're whistling past their own graveyard.

BTW, until FM became truly mobile, how popular was it?

'nuff said.

 

[Savage]

Well, let me qualify what I said. Given a choice between being paid flat-rate from the factory on warranty work and getting full-boat from service department customers, dealers always prefer the latter.

The factory generally screws the dealers on warranty claims....especially relatively low-bucks ones like entertainment systems. If an engine or tranny blows, the manufacturer steps up completely because they don't want the ill will from major failures. Smaller-scale crap like accessories - not so much.

So do they "hate" warranty work? Well, if the techs are sitting around twiddling their thumbs, the dealer would rather get SOME revenue out of the service department than NONE. But they do tend to wrinkle their noses and roll their eyes about claims. It's on a case-by-case basis, but they tend not to like them - especially if they're elusive and subjective. Ask any service department manager about the inevitable complaints like, "I'm hearing a little whirly 'whew-whew-whew' sound from the rear end whenever it's raining."

Since nobody's going to buy a car because it has HD, the system represents nothing like a PITA to the dealer. So they're going to tend to steer prospects AWAY from HD and towards XM-Sirius, because the latter is proven not to be a distraction and an expense.

Assuming they know anything about HD at all.....

 

[tomservo]

HD Radio doesn't have a prayer unless it starts getting installed as standard equipment by at least one of the major automakers.

Then it's dead for two reasons....

1. The automakers aren't about to spend a single cent on a technology that doesn't attract buyers. No one will buy a car for HD radio.

2. Given BMW's experience, it's unlikely that you could convince another automaker to introduce anything that increases warranty claims.

No one buys a car because it has AM radio or a glovebox, either, but both are standard equipment.

I can't tell you how many people I've read about or talked to (both online and in person) who have complained about their OEM radio's reception. Somehow there's never been any predatory lawyers getting involved in that, nor any warranty headaches from dealers when people take them in to fix the problem. (Actually, there's often no fix unless a cable is loose.)

Being that technology can not or will not be updated without bricking a lot of radios, that leaves two avenues of failure for HD radio: poor radio design and poor execution by the transmitting station.

Personally, I think if Ford's radios suck at HD it's because they make horrible radios. At least they have from my recent experience. The last decent Ford radio I remember was in my dad's Taurus wagon and that was from the early 90's. His newer model and some others I've played in have just barely average FM reception and practically nonexistent AM sections. To be honest, I've been in a few Ford-Jags and they were nothing special either in the radio department. So I can only conclude that Ford-Volvos also had subpar stereos for the American market as well.

As for BMW, I have no experience with their head units. Chances are the HD section is okay, it's the transmitting stations that suck at sync, data or have other processing issues. Consumers aren't going to know that it's Clear Channel's engineers who have an issue, they will just assume their radio is broken.

It's like this little AM station down the road from me, WABG. I've ranted and railed against them for YEARS because they have a transmitter problem and have never fixed it. Maybe there's some blown tubes or something, I dunno; I'm not an engineer. But it sounds like all treble and midrange and nothing below about 4,000 Hz, very tinny and difficult to listen to.

They have listeners, though. Do you think the listeners are smart enough to know it's a problem with that station, or do they just assume "my radio must be garbage on AM"?

 

[Play Freebird]

I can't tell you how many people I've read about or talked to (both online and in person) who have complained about their OEM radio's reception. Somehow there's never been any predatory lawyers getting involved in that, nor any warranty headaches from dealers when people take them in to fix the problem. (Actually, there's often no fix unless a cable is loose.)

A tip if you drive an older vehicle with a fender-mounted whip antenna that has noisy AM reception:

Disconnect the antenna lead from the radio and check DC resistance from the coax shield to the chassis. If everything's in good shape, it should measure less than 1 ohm -- but if you see higher readings, the whip's mounting screws are probably corroded.

I had this problem in my 1998 Mazda/Ford pickup truck -- over the past year, ignition noise gradually became worse and worse, I heard crackling when I applied the brakes, clicking when using turn signals, and the AM section lost sensitivity. Finally, I couldn't take it anymore and decided to investigate. When I checked the resistance, the reading exceeded 16 ohms, so I removed the antenna from the fender (had to pry off a trim cover to access the two sheet-metal screws), scraped off the rust, and applied some Noalox® anti-oxidant grease before putting it back in place, then checked the results with the VOM.

With everything cleaned up, the resistance dropped to 0.1 ohm -- and this made a DRAMATIC improvement on AM as well as a minor upgrade in FM performance. With such a decline in vehicle noise, now power lines and IBOC are by far the limiting factors.

The Visteon receiver in this truck actually performs very well, but its wide IF bandwidth lets lots of AM HD self-interference through.

 

[tomservo]

Freebird, in every single case of receiver complaint I've heard of, they've all involved the type of antenna system that's on my own vehicle: a stubby antenna with a separate antenna amplifier. Or in the case of some more high end models, a completely hidden panel antenna in the roof or trunk. Those and the "shark fin" designs are simply not capable of high performance AM and FM reception. It's a form over function issue.

(In the case of my particular design, the amplifier rests in the base antenna housing, which means that it's outside the car. Where the antenna housing is attached to the roof is a corrosion point, and the corrosion has spread into the amplifier and disabled it. It's an unusually common problem, especially in northern climates for some reason. I'm just too lazy to try and drop the headboard inside to replace the entire unit ($50).)

 

[mmnassour]

Personally, I think if Ford's radios suck at HD it's because they make horrible radios. At least they have from my recent experience. The last decent Ford radio I remember was in my dad's Taurus wagon and that was from the early 90's. His newer model and some others I've played in have just barely average FM reception and practically nonexistent AM sections. To be honest, I've been in a few Ford-Jags and they were nothing special either in the radio department. So I can only conclude that Ford-Volvos also had subpar stereos for the American market as well.

As for BMW, I have no experience with their head units. Chances are the HD section is okay, it's the transmitting stations that suck at sync, data or have other processing issues. Consumers aren't going to know that it's Clear Channel's engineers who have an issue, they will just assume their radio is broken.

(snip)

They have listeners, though. Do you think the listeners are smart enough to know it's a problem with that station, or do they just assume "my radio must be garbage on AM"?

Do not assume for a moment that the same design and/or assembly team(s) are responsible for all Ford vehicle radios. In fact, I can assure you that they are not. ;D

Be that as it may, I'm absolutely certain that today's listeners have no clue when the interference that they're hearing is from the station, a lousy radio, or a washing machine next door. But I can be certain that when the sound stops, a la HD on FM, that Mr. Finagel of Hook, Finagel and Swindel, attorneys at law, will be back at the dealership complaining. And if it isn't fixed immediately (impossible as we all know) then his $70-$90K Jaguar has just left a bad taste in his mouth and all he knows is "that dealer doesn't know how to fix a simple radio!".

Perhaps that's why Ford is so gung-ho about HD Radio after it's excellent experience with them in small quantities.

Uh...huh.

 

[radiogooroo]

Then it's dead for two reasons....

1. The automakers aren't about to spend a single cent on a technology that doesn't attract buyers. No one will buy a car for HD radio.

2. Given BMW's experience, it's unlikely that you could convince another automaker to introduce anything that increases warranty claims.

I tend to agree on both counts. I think the only way HD will ultimately gain traction at this point is with an FCC mandate, a la the digital tuners in TVs mandate that was effective March 2007. Otherwise, HD on FM will soldier on as a transmission mechanism for ancillary data services and not much else.

 

[jim8230]

According to the August 2010 issue of Popular Communications, KATY-FM in Idylwild, CA. filed a petition with the FCC about "ongoing and destructive interference caused by the digital hybrid operations on station KRTH". They claim the station is sending to the FCC a CD containing recordings of interference as heard on a factory-equipped car radio. RadioInk.com says this is the first complaint since the power increase happened. Unfortunately this article does not appear on the magazine's website.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.....

 

[Play Freebird]

According to the August 2010 issue of Popular Communications, KATY-FM in Idylwild, CA. filed a petition with the FCC about "ongoing and destructive interference caused by the digital hybrid operations on station KRTH". They claim the station is sending to the FCC a CD containing recordings of interference as heard on a factory-equipped car radio. RadioInk.com says this is the first complaint since the power increase happened. Unfortunately this article does not appear on the magazine's website.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.....

For those who haven't seen it, here's the petition:

http://www.rbr.com/files.php?force&file=pdfs/KATY-FM-InterferencePet-052010.pdf

Of course, CBS Radio (licensee of KRTH) quickly responded, with claims the complaint is "factually defective".

http://www.rwonline.com/article/103510

Here's the CBS response:

http://earthsignals.com/add_CGC/CBS_Response.pdf

Footnote 30 and Section 2 of the CBS Engineering Statement are interesting. Isn't this what many of us have been saying all along -- that the relatively wide bandwidth of analog receivers allows much more energy from digital carriers into the picture than a spectrum analyzer with 1 kHz filter; therefore, the digital-to-analog interference potential is greater than a "mask measurement" would suggest? CBS contends that an analog meter (such as the Potomac Instruments FIM-71) was "not intended" for use with OFDM digital modulation. But by the same token, the AM and FM bands -- and hundreds of millions of existing receivers -- were not intended for hybrid digital operation, which is exactly why we have these problems.

Unfortunately, KATY-FM's consulting engineer Elliott Klein suddenly died on August 1, so it's unclear who will take on the fight.

 

[radiogooroo]

Footnote 30 and Section 2 of the CBS Engineering Statement are interesting. Isn't this what many of us have been saying all along -- that the relatively wide bandwidth of analog receivers allows much more energy from digital carriers into the picture than a spectrum analyzer with 1 kHz filter; therefore, the digital-to-analog interference potential is greater than a "mask measurement" would suggest? CBS contends that an analog meter (such as the Potomac Instruments FIM-71) was "not intended" for use with OFDM digital modulation. But by the same token, the AM and FM bands -- and hundreds of millions of existing receivers -- were not intended for hybrid digital operation, which is exactly why we have these problems.

Maybe it's time for the Commission to enact some quality standards for receivers. A lot of what's out there is just horrible. Perhaps HD could be part of that standard. Everyone seems to agree HD tuners work great for analog.

 

[local oscillator]

Maybe it's time for the Commission to enact some quality standards for receivers. A lot of what's out there is just horrible. Perhaps HD could be part of that standard. Everyone seems to agree HD tuners work great for analog.

I think quality standards for receivers would be a bit late for the billion receivers already in use. Anyway, if you think the CEA is uncooperative over the NAB's "FM inclusion" proposal, wait until they hear about "quality standards for receivers!" Removing the problem (HD) is by far the better solution.

 

[radiogooroo]

I think quality standards for receivers would be a bit late for the billion receivers already in use. Anyway, if you think the CEA is uncooperative over the NAB's "FM inclusion" proposal, wait until they hear about "quality standards for receivers!" Removing the problem (HD) is by far the better solution.

HD is far from the only problem with tuner quality. There are plenty of radios that lack sensitivity, sound awful and still would if there were no HD at all.

Frankly, I could care less what the CEA thinks. If they want to sell TVs in the U.S. they must contain digital tuners. I'd be happy with a quality mandate for car radios only. It would be a good starting point.

 

[KB1OKL]

Maybe it's time for the Commission to enact some quality standards for receivers. A lot of what's out there is just horrible. Perhaps HD could be part of that standard. Everyone seems to agree HD tuners work great for analog.

You don't need IBOC to get the improvements in sensitivity and adjacent channel rejection that are offered in moderns tuners, in fact HD is the only part of my Sony tuner which DOESN'T work well.

 

[radiogooroo]

You don't need IBOC to get the improvements in sensitivity and adjacent channel rejection that are offered in moderns tuners, in fact HD is the only part of my Sony tuner which DOESN'T work well.

Maybe so, but why not give people the option? The HD tuners work great for analog, and for those who want to check out the HD2s, 3s and 4s, the services would be available to them.

Not that there's even the faintest hint that such a thing will happen. It just seems to me that the same Commission that killed the manufacture of analog TV sets with the stroke of a pen could consider doing the same to radio manufacturers.

 

[local oscillator]

Frankly, I could care less what the CEA thinks. If they want to sell TVs in the U.S. they must contain digital tuners. I'd be happy with a quality mandate for car radios only. It would be a good starting point.

I care quite a bit about what the CEA thinks; they make a lot of the devices that make my business possible.

Although digital TV tuners are mandated by the Commission, the quality of those tuners is not.

I agree that many radios are of dubious quality. Nonetheless, I always prefer that the marketplace sorts out the winners and losers, not the government.

 

[KB1OKL]

You don't need IBOC to get the improvements in sensitivity and adjacent channel rejection that are offered in moderns tuners, in fact HD is the only part of my Sony tuner which DOESN'T work well.

Maybe so, but why not give people the option? The HD tuners work great for analog, and for those who want to check out the HD2s, 3s and 4s, the services would be available to them.

What people? No one really cares one way or the other in reality except for hobbyists and industry insiders and the tuners work great in analog whether they have IBOC or not, it's nothing to do with HD that makes them superior, HD is just a tacked on inferior technology that works SO badly they had to vastly improve receivers so it would work at all.

 

[radiogooroo]

What people? No one really cares one way or the other in reality except for hobbyists and industry insiders and the tuners work great in analog whether they have IBOC or not, it's nothing to do with HD that makes them superior, HD is just a tacked on inferior technology that works SO badly they had to vastly improve receivers so it would work at all.

At the original power levels, HD doesn't work well. With the new, increased power levels it's pretty impressive just how well it works.

For the most part, people don't care about how the technology works. If HD Radio were mandated, they would simply notice that they have more choices on the dial. It's a chicken and egg thing. If the tuners were mandated, I guarantee radio would build out the infrastructure to increase power so coverage was on par with analog, and the industry would actually start paying attention to the programming on the HD2 channels.

People would respond to increased choice. Right now, their option is to go buy a relatively expensive add-on radio to receive the additional stations. If HD were mandated, and it just showed up in their new car for example, they might very well appreciate the new programming choices.