HD Questions...

[D-Oradio]

I'm not sure if this is off topic, but I am a little confused. I just hooked up my HDTV and have an outside antenna connected. I have all the HD signals just fine but am confused with the channel allotments. Channel 12 (WRDW) in Augusta, GA says they are on Digital channel 31, but my tv still goes to channel 12.1 and displays it as WRDW-HD. The same way with the other channels. I know this is probaly something simple and stupid but I am inquiring to know. Also, another little side question, why are some of the HD channels not full screen, but in a letterbox format and some of the others are fine. I've tinkered with the PIX SHAPE settings but obviously it blows the pic up too much. I realize this whole post may seem confusing, so I am sorry in advance.

Neil

 

[tripinva]

It's called PSIP, and is designed to reduce confusion among viewers.

HD channels should fill your screen, but during non-HD programming may have black bars on either side of your screen.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=142

Assuming my data is up to date and depending upon your location, you should receive most of those stations.

- Trip

 

[MotoMuzak]

In other words DoubleO, the digital channel is often broadcast on a different physical channel than it appears to. For example, in my area our PBS affiliate, KOPB-TV, has its analogue broadcast on channel 10, but carries its digital feeds on channel 27. That's where the PSIP ("Programme, System and Information Protocol") comes into play. This data stresm specifies how the different subchannels (if any) are laid out, how the receiver should tune them, has the station's Electronic programme guide information, carries a local time signal, and other things. And yes, it also carries the data which indicate how said channels should display on the tuner: whether KOPB's wide-screen programming should display as 27.01 or 10.01 like everybody knows and loves.

That's called a "virtual channel" and it is indeed intended to reduce confusion. After next February it should be even less confusing, as most full-powered digital TV stations will move to the same channel as their NTSC predecessors. Ergo: post-Feb 2009, channel 10.01 really *will* be on 10.01, not 27.01! ;o)

Some receivers (like my Digitalstream) can display the physical channel (27.xx) and the virtual channel (10.xx) at the same time, usually in a table or channel list. There might even be a rig somewhere that could be set to display the physical channel instead of the virtual channel.....but I have yet to see one like that myself.........

As for screen resolution: your widescreen HD display (based on what you indicated in your post, I am going to assume that is what you have) could also be displaying a regular 4*3 standard-definition broadcast......this has the dimensions of a regular TV screen--a modest rectangle. Could be WRDW is transmitting a standard definition signal at the moment (engineer mighta' fallen asleep at the control panel, perhaps) and your receiver might be set to display it with pillarboxes on the sides of the picture: might want to check your TV's instruction manual.

Also not all programming will be in widescreen, and many programmes by their very nature, will be pillarboxed. This is especially true for the majority of programmes made before this decade before HD cameras became affordable or even known-of. Modifications to the programmes could be made to convert them to wide-screen HD resolution--stretching the picture out horizontally, hard-matting the picture to 16*9 dimensions, things like that--but I doubt many TV studios would want to put themselves in the same position MGM found itself in with its botched-up "enhanced for widescreen" DVD-Video movies a few years back...........

Contrary to popular belief not all digital TV broadcasts are HD and the US is not actually converting to HDTV, despite the fact that there are people who would go blue in the face trying to tell you otherwise. We are converting to all-digital TV for full-powered stations, yes, and all HDTV broadcasts here are digital--but not all digital TV broadcasts are high-def.

Hope this helps...........

 

[D-Oradio]

Thanks guys, you helped to clear it up for me. As for the last comment, I noticed some of the channels with the -HD on the end and some with a -D on the end. I'm having a lot of fun with this. I am 25 miles Columbia SC but about 40-50 miles away from Augusta, GA and their transmitters. So, right now I am able to receive both markets digital lineups. (With an outdoor antenna of course)

Neil

 

[DanStrassberg]

After next February it should be even less confusing, as most full-powered digital TV stations will move to the same channel as their NTSC predecessors. Ergo: post-Feb 2009, channel 10.01 really *will* be on 10.01, not 27.01! ;o)

I believe that statement is incorrect! My understanding--though I could be wrong--is that, after the conversion next February, most stations, especially those on the low-band VHF channels, will surrender their VHF assignments and remain on the UHF channels on which they are currently broadcasting their DTV signals. Some stations on the high-band VHF channels (7 thru 13) will move their DTV signals from UHF back to their old analog-channel assignments, however. Here in Boston, for instance, when Channel 7's analog signal on channel 7 goes dark, the DTV signal will move to Channel 7 from whatever physical UHF channel is currently used. However, I've been told that this is the only station in the market that will be on VHF after next February. Channels 2, 4, and 5 are supposed to cease operating on the low-band VHF channels they have used for years for analog TV.

Interestingly, the very first commercial TV station in the US, WRGB Schenectady NY, Channel 6 has applied for special dispensation from this rule. WRGB maintains that topographical conditions unique to New York State's Capital District make DTV operation on UHF impractical in that area. However, if that's so, it doesn't explain why the other two VHF stations in the Capital District are planning to continue using their transition-period UHF assignments for DTV after next February rather than returning to their (short-spaced) VHF assignments on channels 10 and 13.

 

[Markxxx]

It is somewhat important to know actual channels if you have OTA, you need to know what type of antenna to get. If you have a VHF antenna and a channel 7 (like WLS-TV) which is actually on UHF channel 52 (like in Chicago) the antenna won't help as much as it could. Then again the station in this example will move BACK to channel 7.

But because WLS did not stay on it's digital channel because it won't exist, now WLS has to make it's signal conform to any stations that did stay on their digital channel. This could result in directional transmitters and lower power in some (but not all) cases.

Also it may matter for those few people lucky enough to get two stations. I know of someone in Delaware who has two different digital tuners. He can pick up WMAR-TV Baltimore and WCBS New York because his digital tuner allows TWO stations to map to channel 2. However on his other set, the PSIP won't pick up channel 2 because it's a different digital tuner. This tuner will not allow channel two because two stations map to it. So he must enter channel 52 to pick up WMAR and channel 56 to pick up WCBS.

So that's another thing to remember not all digital tuners operate the exact same way. And one TV tuner may be different from another.

 

[w9wi]

After next February it should be even less confusing, as most full-powered digital TV stations will move to the same channel as their NTSC predecessors. Ergo: post-Feb 2009, channel 10.01 really *will* be on 10.01, not 27.01! ;o)

I believe that statement is incorrect!

True, that "...most full-powered digital TV stations will move to the same channel as their NTSC predecessors..." is NOT correct. Overall, 28% of stations' permanent DTV assignment is the same as their current NTSC assignment.

That figure does vary greatly with band:

channels 2-6: 8%
channels 7-13: 67%
channels 14-69: 19%

(so it is true that most full-powered digital TV stations will move to the same channel as their high-band VHF NTSC predecessors.)

My understanding--though I could be wrong--is that, after the conversion next February, most stations, especially those on the low-band VHF channels, will surrender their VHF assignments and remain on the UHF channels on which they are currently broadcasting their DTV signals. Some stations on the high-band VHF channels (7 thru 13) will move their DTV signals from UHF back to their old analog-channel assignments, however. Here in Boston, for instance, when Channel 7's analog signal on channel 7 goes dark, the DTV signal will move to Channel 7 from whatever physical UHF channel is currently used. However, I've been told that this is the only station in the market that will be on VHF after next February. Channels 2, 4, and 5 are supposed to cease operating on the low-band VHF channels they have used for years for analog TV.

This, I'm afraid, is also not true.

Again, almost exactly 2/3 of stations whose analog facilities are in channels 7-13 will return to their VHF channels.

Four stations in the Boston market will be on VHF after transition. However, two of the four are in New Hampshire (WMUR-9 and WENH-11) and a third is Norwell home-shopping channel WWDP (analog 46). So I suppose for the vast majority of Boston viewers WHDH will indeed be the only digital station on VHF...

Interestingly, the very first commercial TV station in the US, WRGB Schenectady NY, Channel 6 has applied for special dispensation from this rule. WRGB maintains that topographical conditions unique to New York State's Capital District make DTV operation on UHF impractical in that area. However, if that's so, it doesn't explain why the other two VHF stations in the Capital District are planning to continue using their transition-period UHF assignments for DTV after next February rather than returning to their (short-spaced) VHF assignments on channels 10 and 13.

I don't think any special dispensation was necessary for WRGB to stay on channel 6. They were allowed to choose between their interim DTV channel (39) and their existing analog channel (6) and they chose 6.

I might guess the channel 10 and 13 stations felt the amount of DTV power they'd be allowed on those channels (to avoid interference with other DTVs on those channels) would be too low to adequately cover the market.

 

[tripinva]

Interestingly, the very first commercial TV station in the US, WRGB Schenectady NY, Channel 6 has applied for special dispensation from this rule. WRGB maintains that topographical conditions unique to New York State's Capital District make DTV operation on UHF impractical in that area. However, if that's so, it doesn't explain why the other two VHF stations in the Capital District are planning to continue using their transition-period UHF assignments for DTV after next February rather than returning to their (short-spaced) VHF assignments on channels 10 and 13.

Umm... WNYT-DT is on channel 12. Why waste the money returning to 13?

I think WTEN's deal is that Young broadcasting is pretty much broke (thanks to KRON) and they may not be able to spare the money to move back. That, and they'd have interference problems with WTNH-DT 10 in New Haven and probably WWLP-DT 11 in Springfield and WVER-DT 9 in Vermont as well.

WRGB shouldn't return to channel 6, but some people just have to learn the hard way. I think they'll quickly learn what a mistake that is. My local PBS station is on channel 3, and from my recent conversation with the engineer, they're well aware that they should boost power at least (they filed for it on Thursday) and that moving elsewhere would be better.

- Trip

 

[MotoMuzak]

Dan, W9WI et al--
I speak mainly for the Portland area on that bit, though I forgot to put that in there. I realise now after reading through my last post that I was a bit broad with my examples, and I am VERY unfamiliar with the DTV situations in the rest of the nation, so I apologise!

Here, KGW (NBC, 8/43), KOPB(OPB/PBS, 10/27) and KPTV (UPN/FOX, 12/30) will be operating ATSC on 8, 10 and 12 starting next February as I understand it. (Maybe earlier if conditions/situations change. ;o) As I further understand things, KATU (ABC, 2/43) and KOIN (CBS, 6/40) will stay on their current UHF channels and turn off their low-VHF. Likewise, KPXG (Pax Net/PAX/I/Ion, 22/4) currently transmits ATSC on channel 4, and I think they will be putting it on 22 where its main analogue broadcast is at present. (Honestly can't say I blame them. ;o)

Should make for some interesting NTSC DXing on V-Low however.....if FM Radio isn't expanded first...... ;o)

 

[dhett]

It's called PSIP, and is designed to reduce confusion among viewers.

That worked out well! ;D

 

[w9wi]

It's called PSIP, and is designed to reduce confusion among viewers.

That worked out well! ;D

Well, really, it did reduce confusion among viewers.

It's only us broadcasting geeks that find PSIP difficult to understand.

 

[w9wi]

Dan, W9WI et al--
I speak mainly for the Portland area on that bit, though I forgot to put that in there. I realise now after reading through my last post that I was a bit broad with my examples, and I am VERY unfamiliar with the DTV situations in the rest of the nation, so I apologise!

Here, KGW (NBC, 8/43), KOPB(OPB/PBS, 10/27) and KPTV (UPN/FOX, 12/30) will be operating ATSC on 8, 10 and 12 starting next February as I understand it. (Maybe earlier if conditions/situations change. ;o) As I further understand things, KATU (ABC, 2/43) and KOIN (CBS, 6/40) will stay on their current UHF channels and turn off their low-VHF. Likewise, KPXG (Pax Net/PAX/I/Ion, 22/4) currently transmits ATSC on channel 4, and I think they will be putting it on 22 where its main analogue broadcast is at present. (Honestly can't say I blame them. ;o)

I don't think your Portland situation is particularly unusual. Stations that have a high-VHF channel available are taking it, those that don't are using UHF. That's pretty common across the country.

You can look at stations' transition plans by going to http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_sear.htm. Type "BDTRCT" in the first "File Number" box, and type the city/state you're interested in the "Community of license city" and "State" boxes. (or the call letters into the "Call SIgn" box. In which case you should probably follow them with a % in case the station has a -TV suffix.) Leave everything else blank.

When you get the next screen, click on the "Application" link on the right to see the station's DTV Transition Status Report.

Do note that some "Portland" stations are technically licensed somewhere else. For example, you'll find KPXG under Salem and KPDX under Vancouver, Wash..

 

[tripinva]

Similarly, I have a page on my website where I've already filtered through the transition plans and posted links to the interesting ones. http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php

If you search by File Number, you'll need to put BDTRET in to see KOPB.

- Trip

 

[w9wi]

Similarly, I have a page on my website where I've already filtered through the transition plans and posted links to the interesting ones. http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php

If you search by File Number, you'll need to put BDTRET in to see KOPB.

Good point. Non-commercial stations are BDTRET instead of BDTRCT.

(the "C" stands for Commercial and the "E" for "Educational")

 

[MotoMuzak]

"KPDX under Vancouver, Wash.."

KPDX is kind of a bizarre situation unto itself, I think........KPDX, the TV station itself, is based in downtown Portland--BUT their transmitter is licensed in Vancouver, WA (the city in which I live, incidentally) and the tower itself is located in the neighbouring city of Camas, WA! On a decent day, from my Aunt's house, you can clearly see the {a*} KPDX tower up in the Camas hills.

I suppose since Camas is so close to Vancouver (in fact, an annexation deal about a decade ago absorbed a lot of outlying county land which formerly had Camas addresses) they must somehow or other consider it legal somehow......weird............

(Should be worth pointing out, Camas is also where local alt-rocker KNRK-FM is licensed _and_ placed. ;o)

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* Come to think of it I may be wrong on the first part--I might actually be seeing the tower for KPDX's translator K14HN on channel 14, natch. Comes in like crap at my Aunt's house _in_ Camas with an outdoor antenna but comes in crystal clear in my apartment in middle Vancouver using a cheap pair of $3 rabbit ears. And my Aunt has an even clearer LOS of the tower than I do! Odd.