HD Questions

[AlexBrowne]

I've never posted on this board before, and don't have an HD radio. However, recently I've been sampling some HD channels of local radio stations through my iPhone. I have two questions for you HD experts:

1) is there some website that lists all the HD stations on the air (I note that radio-locator.com has never added HD channels)?

2) is Arbitron or anyone else attemting to track the audiences for HD stations?

 

[radiogooroo]

I've never posted on this board before, and don't have an HD radio. However, recently I've been sampling some HD channels of local radio stations through my iPhone. I have two questions for you HD experts:

1) is there some website that lists all the HD stations on the air (I note that radio-locator.com has never added HD channels)?

2) is Arbitron or anyone else attemting to track the audiences for HD stations?

HDRadio.com has station listings, but the information there is largely inaccurate. There have been many format flips on HD2 channels that have never made it to the site.

Arbitron does track HD listenership. In PPM markets, HD2 and HD3 channels are encoded just like analog stations and streams. As far as I know though, no HD2 channel has ever surpassed Arbitron's threshold for reporting ratings. Very few streams have crossed this threshold, the stream of one of the stations I take care of being one of them.

I honestly have no idea what the listenership threshold is for HD or streams to be reported.

 

[kc1ih]

http://www.hdradio.com/#stationGuideWidgetry

http://www.hdradioalliance.com/

Note that this info is often out-of-date, but it’s a good starting point. If you are interested in what a particular station is doing, try that station’s website.

 

[rtc]

If you wish to stream radio stations using iboc
(and analog) try here:

http://radiostationworld.com/Locations/United_States_of_America/usastates.asp

 

[Darth_vader]

You are darn right Ibiquity's listings are out of date.....the station list for Portland alleges that KEX are still running a full-service/adult contemporary format. (Been a right-wing news/talker since at least the mid-1980s!)

 

[Savage]

Out of date...or just plain screwed up. (I can't believe I'm saying the following but.....)

In fairness to iBiquity, the task of keeping formats and status up to date for (claimed) 1800+ radio stations (reality: more like about 1400, but that's for another discussion) radio stations operating IBOC could easily be a part-time job in and of itself.

If iBiquity wanted to maintain an accurate list, they should have set up their website so that client stations could update status, formats, etc. by self-posting through a password-protected site....not unlike how schools update winter delays and closings directly to radio & TV stations without having to wait on hold for some newsroom greeb to take the call on a snowy morning.

But.....nooooo...... :

Feud for thought: maybe iBiquity isn't particularly interested in keeping the data current....? For SOME reason(s)......?

 

[Darth_vader]

Well, I can see maybe being a few months out of date, or a year. But more than 20 years?

Even DAB was just barely hitting the Deutschairwaven when KEX went from running Amy Grant and Kajagogoo to running Laura and Limblah!

 

[nd2023]

I've never posted on this board before, and don't have an HD radio. However, recently I've been sampling some HD channels of local radio stations through my iPhone. I have two questions for you HD experts:

1) is there some website that lists all the HD stations on the air (I note that radio-locator.com has never added HD channels)?

2) is Arbitron or anyone else attemting to track the audiences for HD stations?

HDRadio.com has station listings, but the information there is largely inaccurate. There have been many format flips on HD2 channels that have never made it to the site.

Arbitron does track HD listenership. In PPM markets, HD2 and HD3 channels are encoded just like analog stations and streams. As far as I know though, no HD2 channel has ever surpassed Arbitron's threshold for reporting ratings. Very few streams have crossed this threshold, the stream of one of the stations I take care of being one of them.

I honestly have no idea what the listenership threshold is for HD or streams to be reported.

WWMX-HD2 106.5 in Baltimore made the ratings in one demographic this summer. Obviously through the stream since I don't think 100 HD radios even exist within 10 miles of Baltimore, let alone all of them tuned to Mix 2.

 

[Hotseat]

WWWQ-HD2 shows up the Atlanta ratings, mainly because they're also on a translator.

 

[spunker88]

Dont use iBiquity's site to sample HD Radio. Their audio samples are misleading as they are 128kbps MP3 files for both AM and FM.

In real life FM HD in hybrid mode with analog has a maximum of only 96kbps, and thats if only 1 HD stream exists, if there are more that 96kbps must be shared. While AM is only around 40kbps in HD.

 

[Ai4i]

WIRK, West Palm Beach, FL has been listed for several years as having an Americana HD2 sub-channel, "coming soon".
Now, years later, still listed as such, neither the PD nor the GM knew anything about it when I asked them recently.
Like what a disk jockey said more than forty years ago,
"1010-WINS will be back with more music after the news."
(WINS recently celebrated their fortieth year with an all news format)

 

[radiogooroo]

WWMX-HD2 106.5 in Baltimore made the ratings in one demographic this summer. Obviously through the stream since I don't think 100 HD radios even exist within 10 miles of Baltimore, let alone all of them tuned to Mix 2.

Your assumption that it was their stream is incorrect, unless they're blatantly breaking Arbitron's rules. Streams absolutely can not be encoded the same as any over the air station, HD or not. Streams get their very own encoders.

 

[DaveBayArea]

Your assumption that it was their stream is incorrect, unless they're blatantly breaking Arbitron's rules. Streams absolutely can not be encoded the same as any over the air station, HD or not. Streams get their very own encoders.

Are you sure about that? This has been discussed before and I'm pretty sure it was concluded that streams, AM, FM, and HD can all be encoded together as long as the programming is duplicated 100% - including all commercials.

Has that changed?

Dave B.

 

[radiogooroo]

Are you sure about that? This has been discussed before and I'm pretty sure it was concluded that streams, AM, FM, and HD can all be encoded together as long as the programming is duplicated 100% - including all commercials.

Has that changed?

Dave B.

If it's 100% simulcast, including commercials, you can request total line reporting, however, the sources must still all be encoded separately. I actually have a situation very much like this one here, and though we request total line reporting, the audio sources are all measured separately by Arbitron then combined for reporting purposes.

The ratings here on Radio Info denote the total line reporting situations. Did the ratings for WWMX-HD2 show total line status with its stream when this happened?

 

[davideduardo]

Your assumption that it was their stream is incorrect, unless they're blatantly breaking Arbitron's rules. Streams absolutely can not be encoded the same as any over the air station, HD or not. Streams get their very own encoders.

Are you sure about that? This has been discussed before and I'm pretty sure it was concluded that streams, AM, FM, and HD can all be encoded together as long as the programming is duplicated 100% - including all commercials.

Has that changed?

In part... "In addition to being provided with two encoders and a monitor, stations that subscribe to the PPM service have the opportunity to receive additional encoders for HD-Multicast stations and Internet streams free of charge. Stations do not need to subscribe to any of Arbitron's services to be eligible to report their encoded HD-Multicast and streaming Internet stations. Arbitron's encoding equipment can be made available to non-subscribing stations by leasing the equipment for a limited annual fee."

Simulcasts have separate encoders... the station can opt for them being combined in the reports or separately listed, but not both.

 

[hubcity]

Dont use iBiquity's site to sample HD Radio. Their audio samples are misleading as they are 128kbps MP3 files for both AM and FM.

In real life FM HD in hybrid mode with analog has a maximum of only 96kbps, and thats if only 1 HD stream exists, if there are more that 96kbps must be shared. While AM is only around 40kbps in HD.

Hold it - you've got to compare apples to apples. HD radio's compression is roughly equivalent to AAC-Plus, so you do get better quality at lower bitrates. (Anyone got a comparison chart handy? I'd always thought 96k AAC was comparable to 128k MP3...yes?)

 

[DaveBayArea]

Hold it - you've got to compare apples to apples. HD radio's compression is roughly equivalent to AAC-Plus, so you do get better quality at lower bitrates. (Anyone got a comparison chart handy? I'd always thought 96k AAC was comparable to 128k MP3...yes?)

Just MHO, but it still isn't really an apples-to-apples comparison. AAC-based encoding (including HD and XM satellite) have a clanky-sounding high end, with the artifacts being more objectionable on program material with lots of sibilance. MP3's have a hollow bottom-of-the-barrel sound with a different kind of artifact on the high frequencies. For a good demonstration, encode the pluck of an acoustic guitar string and see what they sound like. Both of them throw away portions of the music at low volume, so you have the problem of "instruments disappearing" during complex passages.

Dave B.

 

[Chuck]

The real problem is when you divide that 96 kbs in half or even thirds. 96 kbs AAC sounds pretty good. Divide it in half so you can have a secondary channel and your mileage may vary. Divide it in thirds so you can have a tertiary channel, and you may be disappointed. There is no free lunch.

 

[FMSteve]

Another question for the board: Is is permissible for an HD Channel 2 or 3 to run commericials if the Channel 1 main-line is in the commericial band?

 

[Play Freebird]

Another question for the board: Is is permissible for an HD Channel 2 or 3 to run commericials if the Channel 1 main-line is in the commericial band?

As far as I can tell, there's no legal problem, this is one reason AM stations can be simulcast on HD secondary channels. You'll find the FCC rules for digital radio here:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...view=text;node=47:4.0.1.1.2.3;idno=47;cc=ecfr

I suspect most of the non-simulcast HD2 and HD3 formats remain non-commercial because they don't attract enough of an audience to sell.