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HD Radio...a listener's perspective

8

8638

Guest
I've followed with interest the vibrant debate over HD radio here on R-I. Last year, I bought the little Sony HD tuner, with which I am very pleased, primarily for its analog reception capability. It is the most selective tuner I have ever owned, and I've owned a few. But, the reason for the post is HD.

My gut feeling about HD radio in general is that it is a technology that wasn't fully thought through. Where I live, coastal New Jersey, roughly 57 air miles from the Roxborough antenna farm in Philly and the ESB, the HD signal is, charitably put, feeble (I'm talking FM). The HD signals are more attenuated from Philadelphia than from NYC. I figure this has to do with terrain; much of the path to NYC is over water or low lying coastal areas, while the shot to Roxborough goes through a pine forest. I am not a typical listener; as a former electronics technician and current hobbyist, I know what it takes to receive good quality FM signal. I have an FM Yagi on the roof, with a rotator, feeding the tuner with RG-6 coax, which provides robust analog signal from any direction in which it is pointed. Interestingly, the HD signal on some stations acts as if it is being broadcast from another location than the analog. A few degrees of aim from good analog will often bring HD lock. The oak tree in the yard, when the leaves are present, has an attenuating effect on the NYC HD's. Leaves! I cannot imagine trying to listen to this technology in the car. I also do not believe that the ballyhooed HD power increase will improve things much. I live far enough out that I am relatively unaffected by first adjacent interference from the HD stations, but have seen the effect closer to both cities, and it is detrimental to receiving first adjacents, which sometimes offer programming not available in the cities.

As for programming, some of the HD subs offer stuff I can't get elsewhere, such as Scott Shannon's True Oldies Channel on 95.5 WPLJ HD-2. Speaking of that station, they do a TOH ID that I've never heard on other HD subs..."This is WPLJ, and WPLJ HD-2, New York." Gee, how can it be BOTH?? I do like the ability to hear the big NYC AM's (WABC, WCBS, WINS, WFAN) on the FM HD-2's or 3's. The noise floor on today's AM dial is tiring over hours of listening.

This leads me to AM HD. This is truly junk science/technology! I will admit, when you can get HD lock on AM, the audio quality is improved. But I think AM of 25 years ago, along with the better receivers of that day, sounded pretty good. Problem is, you don't get much lock on AM where I live. The one AM HD that I use, WOR, will usually lock daytime, but once we enter critical hours, lock diminishes, and by dark, no more lock. I attribute the night drop to being on the edge of the night signal. And, it hashes all over 690, 700, and 720. NONE of the big 50 Kw stations using HD at night (happily, these are few) will lock here. Compare this to C-QUAM AM stereo, which provided coverage that basically mirrored a station's analog signal. HD doesn't. I remember listening to 1190 WOWO Fort Wayne in AM stereo at my former home in Raleigh, North Carolina. This was near the end of their music format. Sounded great, minimal fade, almost constant stereo lock. AM seems to be dying a slow death, and all this hashing over adjacent frequencies by the HD'ers is most likely accelerating the process.

I'd like to see AM HD go away. Poorly executed, a poor real world performer. I do like the FM HD concept, but would like to see it perform more robustly, and without interfering with its first adjacent neighbors.
 
I agree that AM HD is junk, it brought in the noise pollution in the AM airwaves at night, and read a alot of complaints about the hiss. I do sometimes see the call letters on the display on my XDR-F1HD from stations like WHO, KMOX, WFAN at night and I'm in northern VA. The antenna I use is a home made untuned 2.5 foot loop with 3 turns of wiring directly connected to my tuner.

I like the FM HD concept better but I hate the adjacent channel interfence; it wiped out the reception of fringe area and weak DX on the FM band when I try to tune next to an FM station doing HD. I bought the Sony HD tuner mostly for how well it performs with analog signals. It is one heck of a good tuner on both FM and AM.

I would like to see the flaws of HD radio fixed but I don't know if the interference would be corrected sometime in the future or not.
 
That's the whole problem. The adjacent-channel interference CAN'T be fixed. There is simply insufficient bandwidth to accomodate the analog and all the digital carriers, so IBOC's mad scientists plopped them into adjacent channels and tried revisionist engineering to tell everyone the interference they were hearing isn't real. It's kind of like describing chicken wings as delightful, low-fat, high-fiber health food loaded with antioxidants. No matter how inaccurately you describe them, enough of them will still kill you.

Unfortunately radio receivers aren't susceptible to circular reasoning, rationalization and lying, so HD doesn't fulfill the hype. Try shouting at your radio: "You're not really on 106.9!! You're on 95.5!! DO IT!!!"

My experience is: this generally doesn't work.
 
I received an HD-"Jump" yesterday. I installed it into the car, today, and initially, I am thrilled!

It resembles the XM Delphi ski-fi. I can take it in the car or move it to the house with a separate docking kit. It also has an AUX input and it is plugged into the existing antenna with an FM modulator. I have it set for 88.1 (its default freq.) and it is attenuating the 100kw station beautifully.

The best is I am picking up 970-HD so far coming in stable, which I am unable to do at home with the Assurian.

I was under my carport and 97.9-hd2 was not as stable, but promising.

If you are looking for an HD radio that will not obsolete itself, this is the one to get.

It appears Ibiquity is re-evaluating its $50/radio royalty.

I am a proponent of trying AM stereo again, this time with the Kahn/ISB system, but this is a radio worth plucking down $50 for.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
 
I own the $50 Insignia, and purchased it mostly as a curiosity when it became available in July 2009. I'm more in the anti-HD camp, but I still wanted to hear what was available on the side channels.

For the record, I own two AM stereo radios. The wideband sounds great, stereo or otherwise. Some stereo stations sounded fine, others overmodulated to where their audio chain had trouble with their high frequencies (the old 550 KUSA St. Louis comes to mind).

My overall beef with HD is the poor overall digital sound quality. Artifacts are noticeable on stations that have only one stream, and worse on those that multicast. Not to mention HD-2's and 3's that fail to stay locked on a signal, or the HD-1's that don't sync to the analog.

From my perspective, the technology is half-baked. Broadcasters had decades to improve on digital technology, and chose to drop the ball. The only reason they went to this rushed system was the misplaced fear of satellite radio, and to maintain the value of their analog transmitters, while throwing a bone to the digital future.

In the St. Louis market, there are some HD-2's and one HD-3 I'll listen to. KWMU (NPR) has a side channel that features extra talk shows not featured on the main channel, and relay WXPN's "X-Ponential Radio." They also stream KWMU-2, and I think the stream sounds better.

KSHE (Emmis) has a freeform HD-2 I enjoy, which is locally programmed. Their sister station KIHT has a locally programmed HD-3 smooth jazz format. The artifacts are noticeable (especially on the HD-3), and unfortunately, these stations do not stream.

The other HD-2 I like is Bonneville's WARH "Deep Tracks."

It's too bad broadcasters couldn't come up with a high quality digital radio service that offered an artifact-free, quality signal that would be the audio eqivalent of HDTV. But that's not what this business is about.
 
spiritof67 said:
My overall beef with HD is the poor overall digital sound quality. Artifacts are noticeable on stations that have only one stream, and worse on those that multicast. Not to mention HD-2's and 3's that fail to stay locked on a signal, or the HD-1's that don't sync to the analog.
From my perspective, the technology is half-baked. Broadcasters had decades to improve on digital technology, and chose to drop the ball.

That's my opinion as well.

While driving through State College, PA last week, I tuned to WPSU-FM, Penn State's public station and the only HD-equipped facility in that market. Their HD-1 channel had a VERY noticable and annoying problem with codec artifacts, probably worse than I've heard anywhere else; it sounded similar to aliasing distortion or a torn speaker cone. I couldn't pinpoint the cause, but it has been my observation that there are a multitude of things that can and do go wrong with the iBiquity system, ranging from drifting delay to buggy software to linear amplifier problems to sample rate conversion issues, etc. Not to mention, HD broadcasters are faced with higher expenses for energy and leased T1 lines. It's certainly not "plug and play", but shouldn't these bugs have been worked out by now? Remember, it has been over 20 years since the decision was made to develop an in-band system.

The only reason they went to this rushed system was the misplaced fear of satellite radio, and to maintain the value of their analog transmitters, while throwing a bone to the digital future. It's too bad broadcasters couldn't come up with a high quality digital radio service that offered an artifact-free, quality signal that would be the audio eqivalent of HDTV. But that's not what this business is about.

This quote from Nautel's Market Development Manager pretty much sums it up:
"It’s not as important WHICH digital system radio evolves to, as it is that radio indeed does convert to digital."

I'll bet CBS felt the same way about their ill-fated "color wheel" approach to color TV.
 
I know it has been mentioned on the board before, but, it is really a shame that FM Extra never took off.
IMHO, It is a far superior system than the current HD system, well I think a string and a can are a better
than ;), no I won't go there.

It allowed for digital sound running off the stations subcarrier, and does not step on adjacent frequency.
It allows allows for sub channels, as does HD radio, without harming your neighbors signal. It's usable
signal also works the full length of the host stations stereo coverage area, something that HD can't,
and still won't, even if an increase in power is granted.

You also have only to pay for the equipment which was very easy to install to an existing transmitter,
and there are no royalty payments. The cost to have it up and running was under 10k.

It is a shame that it never got off the ground. There are many reasons for this which have been talked
about before. If it was the standard for digital FM broadcasting, It would be far superior to what we have
now. For more info www.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMeXtra
 
TR1992 said:
You also have only to pay for the equipment which was very easy to install to an existing transmitter,
and there are no royalty payments. The cost to have it up and running was under 10k.

Apparently they changed the deal, requiring at one time the purchase of a large quantity of proprietary radios as part of the deal. That pushed the cost up, and many interested stations lost that interest.
 
Play Freebird said:
While driving through State College, PA last week, I tuned to WPSU-FM, Penn State's public station and the only HD-equipped facility in that market. Their HD-1 channel had a VERY noticable and annoying problem with codec artifacts, probably worse than I've heard anywhere else; it sounded similar to aliasing distortion or a torn speaker cone. I couldn't pinpoint the cause, but it has been my observation that there are a multitude of things that can and do go wrong with the iBiquity system, ranging from drifting delay to buggy software to linear amplifier problems to sample rate conversion issues, etc.

Dueling codecs can come from a variety of places. While adding an additional one is required for HD, the problem may be too many coding/decoding processes in the audio chain, including the lack of standards on source material such as MP3s and such.

In LA, both KFI and KNX had lots of codec artifacts when they installed HD; they have learned how to successfully deal with the problems prior to HD encoding and both sound very good, crisp and clean in HD on a variety of radios.

Let's not specifically blame HD for things that just as easily could have happend further back in the audio chain.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Play Freebird said:
issues, etc.

In LA, both KFI and KNX had lots of codec artifacts when they installed HD; they have learned how to successfully deal with the problems prior to HD encoding and both sound very good, crisp and clean in HD on a variety of radios.

Let's not specifically blame HD for things that just as easily could have happend further back in the audio

love the kool-Aid
 
pocket-radio said:
DavidEduardo said:
Play Freebird said:
issues, etc.

In LA, both KFI and KNX had lots of codec artifacts when they installed HD; they have learned how to successfully deal with the problems prior to HD encoding and both sound very good, crisp and clean in HD on a variety of radios.

Let's not specifically blame HD for things that just as easily could have happend further back in the audio

love the kool-Aid

Of course it's Kool-Aid...no one could possibly have a different opinion than you, right Peter?
 
DavidEduardo said:
TR1992 said:
You also have only to pay for the equipment which was very easy to install to an existing transmitter,
and there are no royalty payments. The cost to have it up and running was under 10k.

Apparently they changed the deal, requiring at one time the purchase of a large quantity of proprietary radios as part of the deal. That pushed the cost up, and many interested stations lost that interest.
Like I just stated, there were many reasons, THAT WERE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE, as to why it never really caught
on.

Funny you make no mention that even with that radio issue you speak of, it is still cheaper than installing HD. There
is also that fact that the digital signal from it can be heard further than the system you love.

Feel free to keep following me around the board and trying to discredit everything I say, it just further shows your
true character for what it is.

You forgot to mention the fees that you have to continue to pay AFTER an HD install. But, why would you? That would
be telling the whole story, which is something you don't seem to be interested in doing.
 
TR1992 said:
Like I just stated, there were many reasons, THAT WERE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE, as to why it never really caught
on.

And, of course, the first of the reasons was that 15 of the top 20 group broadcasters had made a commitment and an investment in the IBOC / HD technology. Second was that HD was well advanced in the regulatory process when FMextra (or however you calitalize it) came out. Third was the development of relationships with chip manufacturers and fabricators of radios to produce HD devices, irrespective of how many have or have not sold.

Funny you make no mention that even with that radio issue you speak of, it is still cheaper than installing HD.

And when this was being developed, radio was not in its own "recession within a recession" where that made any difference. Today quite a few broadcasters are discovering that HD 2 and HD3 channels have nice revenue possibilities beyond those of SCA catering to niche markets, so a kind of new evaluation of HD is taking place.


There
is also that fact that the digital signal from it can be heard further than the system you love.

First, I do not love HD. I don't think there is any real use for AM HD, but that has more to do with the demonstrable ageing of the baand's listeners, the exclusion of AM from most new media devicess, and the move of an ever-increasing number of major AM's content to FM. AM HD is like giving a silk purse to a sow.

On coverage, on FM the deliverability in most markets of HD is comparable to the usable FM analog signal... 80% of listening is in the 70 dbu and 95% in the 64 dbu contours. Whether HD makes it beyond that contour is not commercially a real issue.

Feel free to keep following me around the board and trying to discredit everything I say, it just further shows your
true character for what it is.

Nobody is stalking you; I am responding in the fashion that this kind of forum is intended, to comments that I take issue with.

Oh, and the ongoing payments to iBiquity are minimal, even in these economic times.

Of course, we all put C Quam on, and invested in studio and link upgrades, too. Never made a cent from it, and eventually abandoned it. HD will be judged the same way after a few more years.
 
As will, I predict, HD Radio be abandoned in a few years. Actually, it's already happening.

In the meantime HD is destined to become a ghetto for narrowcasting niche and specialty and paid formats in major markets - a kind of new digital SCA, and one that doesn't work as well as the old analog subcarriers. We're already seeing it in the lame simulcasts of 50kw news-talk AMs, foreign language and team-specific all sports talkers (the latter with a notable lack of success thus far. Something about how there are "no advertisers because there are no radios and thus no listeners." Suddenly, it's 1952 and UHF-TV all over again! Without the prospect of CATV must-carry rules saving the day in 30 years, it must be added.)

Yep. In HD-land, it's always "Springtime For Hitler!!" :D
 
As will, I predict, HD Radio be abandoned in a few years. Actually, it's already happening.

Not really.

In the meantime HD is destined to become a ghetto for narrowcasting niche and specialty and paid formats in major markets - a kind of new digital SCA,

Maybe. SCA earned a lot of money for stations over the years. But SCA wasn't supposed to be targeted to consumers, and HD is, so there are many more possibilities.

We're already seeing it in the lame simulcasts of 50kw news-talk AMs,

Why is it lame to fill in the nulls of your 50KW AM station?

BTW...I think you've been asked 3 times....is your beef with HD only related to HD on AM?

foreign language and team-specific all sports talkers

All great ideas!

Something about how there are "no advertisers because there are no radios and thus no listeners."

There are specialty formats, like religion and foreign language that do not depend on ratings per se.

I have a private group that has asked to lease our HD3 channel, they want to sponsor EWTN.


Suddenly, it's 1952 and UHF-TV all over again!


ANd we know how that turned out! Just ask Ted Turner!
 
Don Juan said:
As will, I predict, HD Radio be abandoned in a few years. Actually, it's already happening.

Not really.

>>>Can't speak for the whole country, but Citadel seems to have killed it on WABC. And this is no great loss.


We're already seeing it in the lame simulcasts of 50kw news-talk AMs,

Why is it lame to fill in the nulls of your 50KW AM station?


>>>I disagree with Mr. Savage here. Simulcasting your big stick N/T'ers on your sister FM's HD-3 seems to me a good idea. I use WPLJ HD-3 to listen to Limbaugh instead of tolerating the noisy WABC signal.

BTW...I think you've been asked 3 times....is your beef with HD only related to HD on AM?

>>>Wasn't posed to me, but, since I started the thread, I'll answer: YES. HD has no reason for being on AM.



Suddenly, it's 1952 and UHF-TV all over again!


And we know how that turned out! Just ask Ted Turner!

>>>But it didn't turn out that way for a LONG time! Many U's went dark in the Fifties and early Sixties, which was, no doubt, the incentive for the "All-Channel" legislation/regulation requiring TV sets to be able to tune UHF. This was improved upon, in, I believe, 1976, when detent UHF tuners were required. All of that, along with the development of quality high power U transmitters, brought UHF to profitability.

Will iBiquity's IBOC take that long to catch on? Will it catch on at all? I suppose time will answer the questions.
 
TheRover said:
I have NO use for HD Talk Radio AM or FM.

When I tune into a station where talk is going on.... I want --NO-- delays.

It is VERY annoying to hear the repeated speech as the tuner pulls in the HD channel.

It would be better to hear nothing, and then the HD signal than to hear the analog to HD switch. Thanks JVC ! !

On a properly adjusted HD station there is no delay between the analog and digital channel.
 
Savage said:
Quoth "Don Juan:" "Is your beef with HD limited to HD on AM?"

No.

Happy now?

No, not happy or sad. Just seems like most of your complaints are AM-based issues.

Took three tries to get a response.

Happy now?
 
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