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HD Radio - Automaker Support

I'm guessing this thread will turn into one of those "which oil is best?" argu....er, discussions shortly but....

After some initial teething problems with my Lexicon audio system I have been surprised by what I found on digital radio and listen to it almost exclusively when on the road.

As most of you know by now I am an Oldies listener and the only station I can receive fitting that description in the Phoenix market is KOOL. Once on digital however and suddenly I can get KAZG, KOY, (both on the digital signal of another analog FM) KESZ-HD2, KOOL-HD2 and one other that escapes me at the moment plus one smooth jazz signal.

Reception in the Phoenix metro area seems reasonably good with drop outs far and few between. Most of these stations have far fewer commercial stop sets than the main signal and a signal that is as good as analog FM.

I didn't buy that particular car to get HD radio but I am happy it has one.
 
I'm thinkin that's ware the new multi-media options take off is in peoples cars.
first it was satelite radio. Now its HD radio.
 
A day late, several dollars short.
If this were 2003/2004, there would be hope for the future of HD radio.

But it's 2013, and in many markets, there isn't anything on HD Radio that is compelling to WOW most people. More people are looking for the USB input, Ipod/App mode support, hard disk drives- to play what we actually want to hear instead of corporate turds and their 15 minutes of washouts followed by 10 minutes of commercials for penis pumps, reverse mortgages and other junk. HD Radio just isn't in the picture.

In Atlanta, the HD dial is devoid of any programming other than WSB-HD2, which plays soft A/C, a format the corporate tools abandoned years ago, and then there is Project 96.1 on 96.1 HD2. Other than this, nothing. Those that do send HD subchannels just use it to feed poor quality streams to justify their translators. Many HD channels are gone completely.

Nothing to see (or hear). Moving right along...
 
It's a fair point to say that HD on FM has become nothing more than a format graveyard for most companies and even NPR… And it's fair to say that the few creative uses find themselves on a translator where the majority will here it.

But could there come a time where there's enough HD radios in cars to where the HD subchannel might be used as a backup to the translator? 250 watts doesn't go far, sometimes not as far as the HD signal of the big class C it's being fed from. Around Birmingham, I found myself occasionally out of range of clear translator reception (though to be fair, they're monsters, running 99 or 250 watts from 11-1200 feet HAAT) but have used the HD instead. It isn't perfect but it's better than nothing.

Even in my own town, the 2.5 kW AM station's translator at a full 250 watt chat only covers about 1/3 of the area the AM signal does, so it wins out when one is more than 10-15 miles from town.
 
It's hard to believe there's any "support" for traditional radio (AM, FM or HD), when the car makers seem to insist on using a paper clip for an antenna.
I talked to the parts guy at my Subaru dealer last week. It seems that most new cars are now using a small "blade" or "fin" antenna, with about a two-inch vertical wire, for everything....AM, FM, GPS and SatRad.
Subaru supplies you with an in-line preamp when you buy the HD Radio add-on.

Looking at the brochures for other cars, this seems to be the trend.
 
kenglish said:
It's hard to believe there's any "support" for traditional radio (AM, FM or HD), when the car makers seem to insist on using a paper clip for an antenna.
I talked to the parts guy at my Subaru dealer last week. It seems that most new cars are now using a small "blade" or "fin" antenna, with about a two-inch vertical wire, for everything....AM, FM, GPS and SatRad.
Subaru supplies you with an in-line preamp when you buy the HD Radio add-on.

Looking at the brochures for other cars, this seems to be the trend.
Click to expand...

What does the actual metal part of the antenna look like? I've seen the short antennas on some newer vehicles that are a little under a foot tall, but appear to be using some sort of helical antenna.
 
The parts guy said it's just a piece of wire, a few inches long. The whole "blade" looks to be about as big as your hand.
I wonder what one costs, if somebody wanted to tear one apart.....sounds like a job for the NAB Engineering Department,
:)
 
spunker88 said:
What does the actual metal part of the antenna look like? I've seen the short antennas on some newer vehicles that are a little under a foot tall, but appear to be using some sort of helical antenna.
Click to expand...

They are just trying to increase the electrical length by using a spiral. Personally, I'd do a fractal for FM in the fin, and a ferrite bar AM antenna. Let the short wire be for satellite, GPS, etc.

I'm looking to get a new car, Prius is top of my list before the really expensive gas hits - I think it uses one of those short antennas. A decent whip and radio will be the first modifications I make after converting it to a plug-in hybrid.
 
I've seen some advertisements in the 'cop radio' rags about a covert 'bumper antenna' - looks like a diople that you mount INSIDE the top of your rear bumper - seems to me it would be highly directional for broadcast bands use, but probably okay for 2m/VHF use?
 
kenglish said:
It's hard to believe there's any "support" for traditional radio (AM, FM or HD), when the car makers seem to insist on using a paper clip for an antenna.
I talked to the parts guy at my Subaru dealer last week. It seems that most new cars are now using a small "blade" or "fin" antenna, with about a two-inch vertical wire, for everything....AM, FM, GPS and SatRad.
Click to expand...

I don't know about Subaru's or trends generally but I just bought a 2012 Hyundai Genesis. It has the over-the-rear-window "shark fin" for satellite and navigation and an in-the-glass antenna for AM-FM. Reception on AM and analog FM seem to be normal and at least as good as in past vehicles with mast-type antennas. And I've had no problems with sat or the nav system either.
 
landtuna said:
I don't know about Subaru's or trends generally but I just bought a 2012 Hyundai Genesis. It has the over-the-rear-window "shark fin" for satellite and navigation and an in-the-glass antenna for AM-FM. Reception on AM and analog FM seem to be normal and at least as good as in past vehicles with mast-type antennas. And I've had no problems with sat or the nav system either.
Click to expand...

I've had a couple of rental cars like that, and my daughter has a car without a mast. Reception is adequate for locals and regionals, I'd estimate maybe 60 to 80 miles FM, AM works for strong regionals. If you need 200 mile plus on FM, or 300 mile plus on AM - or anything past 30 miles for HD - forget it. You need a decent antenna and radio which means a whip antenna, and something better than the 20 cent RF transistor in stock radio front ends, and better than two wide ceramic filters in the IF. Unfortunately, unless you are in a tight, compact metro area and are well served with the formats you want, you are out of luck with the shark fins, nubs, and windshield stuff. Stock radios used to work OK - when AM IF was 262.5 kHz and attached to a 60 inch whip. The 60 inch whip REALLY helped FM as well. the 31 inch whip was somebody over-thinking things and trying to make a quarter wave. When your are out in the fringes, you need all the metal in the air you can get. Stock stuff in cars might work in the Eastern 1/3 of the country, but in wide open spaces in the Western 2/3, disappointing at best - useless at worst.
 
landtuna: I'm surprised your 2012 Hyundai Genesis only had a small shark fin antenna. My 2012 Hyundai i30 came with a proper whip antenna (albeit only 7" long on the roof) but it has some sort of winding coil on the outside & I'd assume it has a preamp as the AM/FM reception on the car stereo is pretty good for such a small antenna. It also has a very good DSP based chipset as its selectivity is almost as good as the XDR-F1HD. But most surprising - it has rotary manual tuning! If I installed my 1.9m big whip antenna, it would have killer AM/FM reception! - Here in Australia you can still buy these big 1.9m whip antennas from aerpro (model AP44). - a google search would bring these up.

dxer2_2000
 
Are you sure there's only one wire in those shark fins? I would think they contain multiple embedded antennae because of the huge number of bands of radio integrated into modern cars — AM/FM on one, GPS on a patch or target, multiband cellular/PCS on another, maybe even for homelink/garage door frequencies. Oh and another patch for satellite.

The AM/FM might be the most compromised but it's also likely to be amplified and a good quality low noise amplifier almost makes up for the lack of antenna size from what I've experienced.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
Personally, I'd do...a ferrite bar AM antenna.
Click to expand...
Would you rotate it with the steering wheel ???
 
ai4i said:
rbrucecarter5 said:
Personally, I'd do...a ferrite bar AM antenna.
Click to expand...
Would you rotate it with the steering wheel ???
Click to expand...

The FM antennas in the windshield are directional, why not the AM as well? If you are going to compromise reception, might as well make it directional while you are at it. Oh wait, that would make the sacred cow of HD AM drop out. Never mind, we can't challenge this wonderful new digital radio system. Sports station fans wouldn't be able to hear crowd noise in stereo if we do that.
 
I recall reading a story about a guy who mounted a ferrite bar antenna on a short rotatable mast that came through the roof of his car. He could reach up and turn it 90 degrees with a T handle inside the vehicle.
 
I picture an old cop-car 'bubblegum machine' single rotating beacon light case on the car roof with a ferrite bar antenna floating on slip rings inside of it and a little servo motor tied to an electronic compass that remembers signal strength for each AM radio preset - or when your foot is on the brake it rotates the bar for max AM signal strength and remembers the rotation angle - how's that for an idea to patent?
 
I saw a car with a marine satellite TV antenna under a low profile radome on the roof.
I would love to experience how well it works and how quickly it responds to quick turns.
 
ai4i said:
I saw a car with a marine satellite TV antenna under a low profile radome on the roof.
I would love to experience how well it works and how quickly it responds to quick turns.
Click to expand...

It sounds like maybe you saw a storm chaser. A lot of them try to rely on the internet, but even with a data plan from a cell company, cell coverage can be spotty, and would probably be the first thing to go after power in severe weather.
 
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