HD Radio fails miserably

[Mickey37]

I got a Cambridge Soundworks HD Radio. Set it up , turned it on.

I can pick up HD broadcasts of public radio stations quite well. Same with Boston's Classical music station, and the country music station it switched frequencies with.

Occasionally, one of the HD-2 stations with a male name comes in. Same with Boston's top hip hop station.

None of the other HD signals in the area come in, and some of the stations I could hear before, they didn't come in on the new radio.

Still, that's alot of money to pay to hear formats in HD i don't listen to anyway.

I've already put it back in the box, and put the Bose wave radio back where it was. The Bose also has a better alarm, by the way. Audio ramps up gradually on a Bose. Not so on the HD radio I'm returning.

I'll try HD radio again once they make a portable unit. Bose wave radio is so much better than the HD unit I bought. Don't need an external antenna, and I can pick up so many more stations.

 

[chrish]

I have a thread on the CSW blog, I too have a Bose Sound Wave clock radio at my home in Southern NH, on the CSW HD820 with the rod antenna I get WCRB very
well and WGIR-FM and WZID Manchester both with noisy signals.... thats it!
On the Bose with nothing whatsoever connected to the F connector on the rear
there is an clear FM station on just about every position on the dial including
Boston, Worcester, Manchester, Portsmouth, and most FM stations in the Providence and Portland markets with a few from Cape Cod. Depending on the position of the line cord I can get up to three differnt stations on some frequencies
As the old saying goes "some thing is rotten in Denmark"

 

[Mike Walker]

HEY, a Radiosophy for 100 bucks (occaionally 50 on sale) pulls in signals GREAT! So does an Accurian. And I got great results on an Insignia INSIDE BEST BUY IN HICKORY NC last weekend with it's internal whip antenna, as well as with a Sony table radio with the silly wire "t" dipole. Why the hell don't they include rabbit ears instead of those things???

 

[Play Freebird]

I just made a very effective "sleeve dipole" antenna from nothing more than a 15 foot scrap of RG-6 coax cable (with F connector on one end) and a ferrite bead, 1 inch long, 7/16 in OD, with a 1/4 in ID hole. This project took me about ten minutes and probably outperforms the "Terk" or any of the those other overpriced miniature antennas.

For anyone interested, here's the recipe:

1) Measure 29 inches from the free end of the cable (the end without F connector) and carefully cut through the jacket, shielding foil and braid, and foam dielectric, being careful not to damage the inner conductor.

2) Go back an inch towards the free end and cut through the jacket only. Unravel the braid and remove the foil and dielectric between the two cuts to expose the inner conductor.

3) Twist the braid wires (leading to the free end) together and short them to the inner conductor. If the braid is copper, you can solder it to the inner conductor; however most of today's RG-6 has an aluminum braid. In that case, you'll need to find a small piece of metal that you can crimp around the braid wires so that they make a secure connection to the inner conductor at this point.

4) Make sure the shield on the other portion of the cable (braid and foil you cut in step 1) are not shorting to the inner conductor.

5) Slide the ferrite bead over the free end and position it 57 inches down, then tape it in place. Also, tape over the jacket cut you made in step 2.

6) Connect the F connector to your FM radio and enjoy improved reception.

The active "dipole" portion of the antenna is the 57 inch section between the ferrite bead and free end, so you need to make sure it's straight and mounted away from metallic objects that could detune it. Of course, if you hang it vertically, it will have an omnidirectional vertically-polarized pattern, You might want to slide this end into a 5 foot piece of 1/2" Schedule 40 PVC to keep it straight and protect it against damage.

The ferrite bead will be the hardest thing to locate, but you might be able to salvage one from an old computer cable. I frequently see this size for sale at hamfest flea markets and try to keep several in stock.

How it works:

The 28 inch (~1/4 wave) portion of shield between the free end and the cut (where it is bonded to the inner conductor) acts as one half of the dipole. The next 28 inches, from the cut to the ferrite bead, acts as the other half. The bead (which has an impedance of several hundred ohms in the FM band) acts as an "RF insulator" to decouple the dipole from the remaining length of cable leading to the receiver. This also establishes an impedance of approximately 75 ohms at the feed point, which is at the cut.

Enclosing the feed coax within the dipole itself makes for a clean appearance, but this idea is nothing new; it's the same approach used on the crossed bent dipoles in the popular ERI "Rototiller" transmit antenna.

 

[Kyle D]

I just made a very effective "sleeve dipole" antenna from nothing more than a 15 foot scrap of RG-6 coax cable (with F connector on one end) and a ferrite bead, 1 inch long, 7/16 in OD, with a 1/4 in ID hole. This project took me about ten minutes and probably outperforms the "Terk" or any of the those other overpriced miniature antennas.

You had me at "ferrite bead"...

If it's all as simple as you've nicely laid out here Freebird, I just can't see why these units aren't flying off the shelves!

You know, I don't really care if HD suceeds or not, but I definitely don't think it will. I think some of you "pro-HD" folks need to sit back and look at some of the things you post. I'm sure you're trying to help people out Freebird, but you can't seriously think that any "regular Joe" is going to construct a "sleeve dipole" antenna. More than 99-percent of people would read your instructions and have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, myself included.

To me, it's pretty simple. Until these units will work reliably (at least as reliable as analog AM/FM) without having to install any type of antenna, HD will not take off. If reliability is no longer an issue, it will then take content that cannot be heard any other way to drive sales. If the lack of content on AM & FM is any indicator, I for one don't have much faith that this industry is poised to make it happen.

 

[Radioman100]

I just made a very effective "sleeve dipole" antenna from nothing more than a 15 foot scrap of RG-6 coax cable (with F connector on one end) and a ferrite bead, 1 inch long, 7/16 in OD, with a 1/4 in ID hole. This project took me about ten minutes and probably outperforms the "Terk" or any of the those other overpriced miniature antennas.

You had me at "ferrite bead"...

If it's all as simple as you've nicely laid out here Freebird, I just can't see why these units aren't flying off the shelves!

You know, I don't really care if HD suceeds or not, but I definitely don't think it will. I think some of you "pro-HD" folks need to sit back and look at some of the things you post. I'm sure you're trying to help people out Freebird, but you can't seriously think that any "regular Joe" is going to construct a "sleeve dipole" antenna. More than 99-percent of people would read your instructions and have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, myself included.

To me, it's pretty simple. Until these units will work reliably (at least as reliable as analog AM/FM) without having to install any type of antenna, HD will not take off. If reliability is no longer an issue, it will then take content that cannot be heard any other way to drive sales. If the lack of content on AM & FM is any indicator, I for one don't have much faith that this industry is poised to make it happen.

It may not work as well as you think it should there in Philadelphia, but here in Texas, it works very well.

Of course, FM works better here period, so that's to be expected. When all the signals in the market that matter are full 100kW class C at nearly 2,000' it's hard to go wrong.

Two of the top 10 markets are here and most of the stations fit that description. Atlanta is pretty much the same.

 

[alexanderthepeon]

HD Radio is over

Much like a bad format change that everyone knows will not last.

They might as well unplug and turn it off now.

1. Nobody wants or needs it.
2. It really isn't HD, just a codec that clears up multipath. Not great quality.
3. Reception is all or nothing, and much less coverage than normal signal.
4. The HD-2 programming is just Ipods (hard drives with music- nothing compelling)
5. The Internet will be the next major platform and is more versatile and interactive
6. This thing is just like the Laserdisk. A few geeks will have it before it becomes a white elephant.

 

[Kyle D]

It may not work as well as you think it should there in Philadelphia, but here in Texas, it works very well.

Of course, FM works better here period, so that's to be expected. When all the signals in the market that matter are full 100kW class C at nearly 2,000' it's hard to go wrong.

Two of the top 10 markets are here and most of the stations fit that description. Atlanta is pretty much the same.

But I better not move to Austin though, right? A few weeks back you told a disappointed HD listener in Austin that he needed to go try his unit in San Antonio.

I'll stick to my Sirius and my Wi-Fi Radio, which coincidently does not need a sleeve dipole antenna...oh, and it runs on batteries (Look Mom! No wires!). I know, just wait for the 8th generation HD units...

 

[Radioman100]

No, I told him to try listening in Austin. He was attempting to DX some Austin HDs.

 

[Radioman100]

Re: HD Radio is over

Much like a bad format change that everyone knows will not last.

Actually, it's more like a format change all the "experts" on the web say won't work, then it succeeds wildly and brings in piles of cash.

They might as well unplug and turn it off now.

Yeah, that makes sense. All the infrastructure is now in place and it doesn't cost much to operate it. Sure. After spending millions, why not just turn it off and guarantee that investment is a big fat loss with no chance for ROI.

1. Nobody wants or needs it.

Says who? Web pundits? I'll wait until it makes its way into new Fords next year and the other makes that are sure to follow and see what the public thinks.

2. It really isn't HD, just a codec that clears up multipath. Not great quality.

What's HD anyway? Who decides what's high definition? My HDTV offers a really pretty picture, but it sucks when it comes to fast moving action. The pixellation is horrible. The HDTV subchannels also vary greatly in terms of quality.

3. Reception is all or nothing, and much less coverage than normal signal.

Just like my HDTV, only my HDTV doesn't revert back to analog when its signal craps out. HD Radio does.

4. The HD-2 programming is just Ipods (hard drives with music- nothing compelling)

An unfounded generalization, and "compelling" is in the ear of the beholder. Quite a few HD2 channels have racked up kudos on the web.

5. The Internet will be the next major platform and is more versatile and interactive

Not very likely given the CRB rates and the fact that every major webcaster says the rates will bankrupt them.

6. This thing is just like the Laserdisk. A few geeks will have it before it becomes a white elephant.

Wrong. Everyone that buys a new Ford next year will have it. When all the other automakers say "me too" everyone with a new car will have it. Soon, everyone with a new iPod will have it.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Re: HD Radio is over

Wrong. Everyone that buys a new Ford next year will have it.

Wrong. According to Ford, it will be a factory-installed option, not standard equipment.

 

[Kyle D]

Wrong. Everyone that buys a new Ford next year will have it. When all the other automakers say "me too" everyone with a new car will have it. Soon, everyone with a new iPod will have it.

If people have it, and they don't know that it's there, does it still exist??

From everything I've seen, your iPod statement is incorrect. The HD will be part of ONE docking station, so only those that by that docking station will have it.

 

[Radioman100]

Re: HD Radio is over

Wrong. According to Ford, it will be a factory-installed option, not standard equipment.

Even so, there will be a lot more of them next year than there are now. My ride has a lot of factory installed options, like the sunroof. I never owned a vehicle with one before and I never would have bought it just for the sunroof, but I'm glad it's there. I really enjoy it.

 

[Radioman100]

If people have it, and they don't know that it's there, does it still exist??

From everything I've seen, your iPod statement is incorrect. The HD will be part of ONE docking station, so only those that by that docking station will have it.

Yes, people will know it exists. They'll have to tune past the HD2 channels to get to the other analog ones, so it will be pretty hard to miss.

There are already more than one docking station with HD Radio and iTunes tagging.

The feature will help Apple sell a lot of music via iTunes. You don't even have to listen to an HD2 to use the feature, people could simply be listening to their favorite station via its digital counterpart on HD1, tag a song and buy it.

For Apple, iTunes tagging is a great way to tap into immediate, emotional buyers, Apple would be crazy to not integrate HD with tagging into more iPod products or even iPods themselves.

 

[clouseau]

Wrong. Everyone that buys a new Ford next year will have it. When all the other automakers say "me too" everyone with a new car will have it. Soon, everyone with a new iPod will have it.

If people have it, and they don't know that it's there, does it still exist??

Sure it does, Kyle. How many people ended up with AM stereo radios in their cars and didn't order them? When they press "Seek" and end up listening to a format they mever had before on an HD2 or HD3, I think it'll exist...

From everything I've seen, your iPod statement is incorrect. The HD will be part of ONE docking station, so only those that by that docking station will have it.

I'll agree with you there. I think what makes sense here and what RM is talking about is HD radios are becoming part of other appliances, not just radios. While I think people like Mark Ramsay are way off the mark most of the time, their contention that HD radios are a tougher sell as stand alone radios than "Stuff with HD Radios in them", is valid. An now clearly some Ford vehicles will come with HD "Installed". As dealers order their "Spec" cars, I think you'll see it out their on car lots installed. aka, didin't really need it, but have it.

Someday. assuming HD is around that long and radio survives (I Believe both will happen) I think you'll see Radio include HD on a level of use such as FM stereo.

That's just my opinion. Your may vary.

Clouseau

 

[Kyle D]

What's HD anyway? Who decides what's high definition? My HDTV offers a really pretty picture, but it sucks when it comes to fast moving action. The pixellation is horrible. The HDTV subchannels also vary greatly in terms of quality.


Quote from: alexanderthepeon on Yesterday at 11:45:16 pm
3. Reception is all or nothing, and much less coverage than normal signal.

Just like my HDTV, only my HDTV doesn't revert back to analog when its signal craps out. HD Radio does.

The pixellation probably isn't the TV, it's probably a problem on your cable operators end. But that same pixellation occurs on a SDTV that has digital cable. I recently switched from everyone's favorite cable company to the new FiOS TV and my picture is better than ever with no pixellating whatsoever, and my TV is nearly 4 years old.

This is all pretty simple. You guys can justify all you like. When it comes down to it, HDTV's are flying off the shelves in droves because people want them. HD Radio's are collecting dust and they're probably collecting it back in the storage room because the store doesn't want to waste the shelf space out front.

 

[Play Freebird]

If it's all as simple as you've nicely laid out here Freebird, I just can't see why these units aren't flying off the shelves!

You know, I don't really care if HD suceeds or not, but I definitely don't think it will. I think some of you "pro-HD" folks need to sit back and look at some of the things you post. I'm sure you're trying to help people out Freebird, but you can't seriously think that any "regular Joe" is going to construct a "sleeve dipole" antenna.

I neglected to mention that I made the sleeve dipole for use with a Tivoli Two analog radio in my office, which is also used as an amplifier for my Roku Soundbridge WiFi "tuner". The Roku sits directly on top of the radio cabinet and generates a bit of microprocessor hash, so I was hearing some noise on WXPN with the Tivoli's stock "rat tail" antenna; however the sleeve dipole adds a few feet of separation from the radio which seems to have solved the RFI problem. Only only posted the homebrew instructions for the benefit of anyone who wants to experiment with this type of antenna. So don't worry, Kyle -- I haven't become an HD cheerleader quite yet (though I don't mind making suggestions that could help to improve the system's mediocre performance)

To receive reliable HD FM out here, I need more than a sleeve dipole. The only antenna that provides fully satifactory results is a 9-element yagi in the attic.

Regarding the comment about HDTV pixelation, sounds to me like a cable TV artifact. I receive DTV directly over the air here and have never found this to be objectionable.

The audio on DTV sounds great too, much better than the 64 kbps HD radio codec. Too bad DTV's 320 kbps Dolby digital surround capability is usually wasted on newscasts, game shows, and soap opera dialogue, whereas FM radio (which was originally intended to be a high-fidelity music medium) got stuck with an inferior codec -- and don't get me started on the quality of the AM codec.

How on earth did that happen?

 

[alexanderthepeon]

HD2 Channels- poor reception in many markets
No real noticable benefit- sound is not that great
A crowded marketplace with many more exciting appliances like smart phones that people actually want
Give me one example of how HD Radio makes anyone any money
Oh yeah, to the poster who said itis already up and cheap to operate- I guess he doesn't count most of the country, where implementation is spotty at best, and AM where there are real issues.

 

[Play Freebird]

It may not work as well as you think it should there in Philadelphia, but here in Texas, it works very well.

Of course, FM works better here period, so that's to be expected. When all the signals in the market that matter are full 100kW class C at nearly 2,000' it's hard to go wrong.

Two of the top 10 markets are here and most of the stations fit that description. Atlanta is pretty much the same.

There's quite a significant difference between FM facilities in DFW or Houston, compared with most of the other top 10 markets.

Let's start with Houston. Many of their major stations are on the "Senior Road" tower, transmitting 100 kW nondirectional at 585 meters (1920 feet) above average terrain.

On the other hand, New York's best FM facilities (those on the Empire State Building) are limited to about 6 kW at 413 meters (1355 feet.) That's a 12 dB disadvantage in power, not taking the reduced height into account. Fortunately, the population center of the NYC market is close to Empire, but that doesn't help the people who want to listen in Long Island or north Jersey.

Moving on to Dallas, a typical Cedar Hill FM station is entitled to 100 kW at about 490 meters. Now, compare that against Chicago, where a the Class B limit on the John Hancock building is about 4 kW at about 425 meters, a difference of -14 dB.

In Philadelphia, the Roxborough stations are running a bit more power than in NYC and Chicago, but only because the towers are in the range of 250-340 meters. Also, terrain to the north and west of the city is more challenging than around Houston and Dallas.

The situation is similar in Boston.

In Washington, FM stations are forced to use even shorter towers, due to airspace restrictions.

Many Los Angeles stations are fortunate to be grandfathered well above the Class B limit atop Mount Wilson, which helps their digital coverage. There are also some grandfathered Bs in San Francisco... but how about that terrain?

As for Atlanta, digital coverage is probably OK for the handful of stations with sites near the city, but what about all those rimshotters?

So let's get this straight: you say things are fine in Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston, but how can we expect similar results everywhere else?

 

[Radioman100]

The pixellation probably isn't the TV, it's probably a problem on your cable operators end. But that same pixellation occurs on a SDTV that has digital cable. I recently switched from everyone's favorite cable company to the new FiOS TV and my picture is better than ever with no pixellating whatsoever, and my TV is nearly 4 years old.

Guess again. I pick up all the local stations over the air using rabbit ears. HDTV is compressed digital data. You get pixelation and other compression artifacts during fast motion just like you do with a DVD.

This is all pretty simple. You guys can justify all you like. When it comes down to it, HDTV's are flying off the shelves in droves because people want them. HD Radio's are collecting dust and they're probably collecting it back in the storage room because the store doesn't want to waste the shelf space out front.

You must have a really short memory. HDTV has been around for years now, but in the beginning, the sets just weren't moving. The price had to drop significantly before most people got interested. Sound familiar?