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HD radio in real life!!!

P

papaul1967

Guest
The real time facts of HD from the new JVC that gets the HD 1,2 and 3

1. Sriking sound in HD :)

2. Only large metro areas have HD

3. Most subchannel formats are nothing more then a variant of the main channel's format; hopefully these formats will DIVERSIFY as more stations go on the air with HD-2.

4. *Actual HD coverage is about 50% less than the Analog coverage on a majority of the stations.


*Right now most HD stations are broadcasting at a fraction of the main channel's output(maybe full power IBOC hash would interfere with analog) thus the HD coverage to be blunt "s**ks"! this in contrast to all the hype i have heard. In Real time also the HD signal is EXTREMELY sensitive to any line of sight obstructions including wooded areas even in the primary service area. Most stations (stable) coverage is limited to about 30 miles (NYC & Philly) beyond that the the HD light is constantly flashing without locking onto the HD signal; maybe its the JVC that has issues or both the radio and transmitter power..

Kudos to WOR 710 with stable HD coverage to 60 miles and to WCBS-FM 101.1 for having the largest stable FM HD coverage 45 miles!! with spotty coverage out to 100km from the Empire State building (nice to listen to jack fm HD-1 and CBS FM HD-2 in central nj now for the time being crystal clear digital rather than the crosstalk crap with from B-101 but wait B 101 is gearing up for IBOC soon!!)

Before you run out and get an HD radio just be aware this technology is new and has issues that need to be worked out or its go the way of AM stereo..
 
> The real time facts of HD from the new JVC that gets the HD
> 1,2 and 3
>
> 1. Sriking sound in HD :)
>
> 2. Only large metro areas have HD
>
> 3. Most subchannel formats are nothing more then a variant
> of the main channel's format; hopefully these formats will
> DIVERSIFY as more stations go on the air with HD-2.
>
> 4. *Actual HD coverage is about 50% less than the Analog
> coverage on a majority of the stations.
>
>
> *Right now most HD stations are broadcasting at a fraction
> of the main channel's output(maybe full power IBOC hash
> would interfere with analog) thus the HD coverage to be
> blunt "s**ks"! this in contrast to all the hype i have
> heard. In Real time also the HD signal is EXTREMELY
> sensitive to any line of sight obstructions including wooded
> areas even in the primary service area. Most stations
> (stable) coverage is limited to about 30 miles (NYC &
> Philly) beyond that the the HD light is constantly flashing
> without locking onto the HD signal; maybe its the JVC that
> has issues or both the radio and transmitter power..
>
> Kudos to WOR 710 with stable HD coverage to 60 miles and to
> WCBS-FM 101.1 for having the largest stable FM HD coverage
> 45 miles!! with spotty coverage out to 100km from the Empire
> State building (nice to listen to jack fm HD-1 and CBS FM
> HD-2 in central nj now for the time being crystal clear
> digital rather than the crosstalk crap with from B-101 but
> wait B 101 is gearing up for IBOC soon!!)
>
> Before you run out and get an HD radio just be aware this
> technology is new and has issues that need to be worked out
> or its go the way of AM stereo..
>
I grabbed a Boston Acoustics HD reciever last week. Floor model. Using a TV antenna I was able to get about 10 HD stations from either 30 or 60 miles away (most 60 miles away)

I took the radio back to exhange it for another so I could use the AM. The AM did not work at all on the floor model.

I take it back to exchange it for a brand new out of the box.

FM reception (both analog and HD) is next to nothing using the same antenna. Basically, the BRAND NEW reviever works worse then the floor model that I got.

AM is nothing special. I didn't expect it to be.

So that means I have to take it back AGAIN and get another (hopefully one that works like the floor model did on the FM side)

My guess would be it all depends on the reciever and antenna.

Sound quality: I really prefer the FM processed sound to the XM sound HD rsdio has. But I guess thats because I'm a radio geek to the extreme.

It's new technology. It makes me think I am using an early FM radio or mechanical television.
<P ID="signature">______________

</P>
 
> The real time facts of HD from the new JVC that gets the HD
> 1,2 and 3
>
> 1. Sriking sound in HD :)
>
> 2. Only large metro areas have HD
>
> 3. Most subchannel formats are nothing more then a variant
> of the main channel's format; hopefully these formats will
> DIVERSIFY as more stations go on the air with HD-2.
>
> 4. *Actual HD coverage is about 50% less than the Analog
> coverage on a majority of the stations.
>


It may have been in your case, but that is not a 100% fact. My HD's cover about 75% of the main channel. Because digital does not need the brute force to be heard like analog, you'll never see "high-power" HD. <P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
Interesting and where do you live in a Class C allocated area on open flat terrian? if we never see a higher power HD than this technology will fail unless you live near the transmitter. I'm assuming and i hope this is the not case but the HD receivers need to improved to keep an HD locked signal but i just can't imagine that happening when you traveling through constantly changing terrain based on my current observations of driving around the HD signal seems to have more characteristics of Light (just an analogy) "on and off" even within 15 miles of the transmitter because of a hill.......if anyone else has the new jvc let us know what you think

> My HD's cover about 75% of the main channel. Because
> digital does not need the brute force to be heard like
> analog, you'll never see "high-power" HD.
>
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by papaul1967 on 03/25/06 01:26 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Class B areas here folks. I carry the Chicago stations about 50+ miles away with no dropouts. Sounds like you have radio or antenna problems.

> Interesting and where do you live in a Class C allocated
> area on open flat terrian? if we never see a higher power
> HD than this technology will fail unless you live near the
> transmitter. I'm assuming and i hope this is the not case
> but the HD receivers need to improved to keep an HD locked
> signal but i just can't imagine that happening when you
> traveling through constantly changing terrain based on my
> current observations of driving around the HD signal seems
> to have more characteristics of Light (just an analogy) "on
> and off" even within 15 miles of the transmitter because of
> a hill.......if anyone else has the new jvc let us know what
> you think
>
> > My HD's cover about 75% of the main channel. Because
> > digital does not need the brute force to be heard like
> > analog, you'll never see "high-power" HD.
> >
>
 
> It may have been in your case, but that is not a 100% fact.
> My HD's cover about 75% of the main channel. Because

I don't have a mobile receiver, but at my fixed location a considerably better antenna is required to receive HD signals than for analog. (same receiver)

My set came with a 19" wire antenna for FM and a small loop for AM. With the wire antenna, I get *no* HD reception. (the set knows that some stations *have* HD but it can't decode it) If I connect the outdoor TV antenna I get all three local "FM" HD stations.

(don't have anything between the wire and the outdoor antenna to test<grin>, I would imagine the FM antenna requirement lies closer to the wire end than to the outdoor Yagi end... a "twin-lead T" would probably do the trick, I ought to make one<g>.)

On AM, it is nearly impossible to find an antenna orientation that will bring in our only "AM" HD station for more than a second or two. This morning is the first time I've been able to get it to stay locked. (and since I can't stand the program I'm not exhaustively testing it<grin>)

Both AM and FM, I can get perfectly clean analog reception from the same stations on the antennas provided with the set. (and other radios generally deliver clean signals from these stations with similar antennas) My location is roughly 20 miles from the (50kw) AM station and one of the FMs, and roughly 30 miles from the other two FMs. (all three FMs are 80-100kw)

So at least with this set, I do see a serious deficit in HD coverage compared to analog.
 
>
> Sound quality: I really prefer the FM processed sound to the
> XM sound HD rsdio has. But I guess thats because I'm a radio
> geek to the extreme.
>

You must really hate CD's and web streams!
Digital sources should not process because there is no noise floor to stay above (ie, the S/N ratio will always be infinite) but you are welcome to add a processor to your sound chain!

Actually, it has always been my view that a variable adjustable compressor in car and portable units would help in noisy environments. They could also be made with a linked mode, as the volume is increases, the compression would likewise increase.<P ID="signature">______________
Proud 2 B a pioneering satellite radio subs¢riber
Ai4i is always on the trailing edge of technology
______________</P>
 
Don't anyone in their cars use window antennae or stubby rubber antennae, now!
Lets have no reports on car performance unless you are using a real man's thirty inch stainless steel rod. It is a size thing, ya know!<P ID="signature">______________
Proud 2 B a pioneering satellite radio subs¢riber
Ai4i is always on the trailing edge of technology
______________</P>
 
That's ironic when you think about it--that a leading-edge 2006 radio would need a 1920s-style outdoor wire radio antenna (preferably made of bare copper wire with those schmaltzy old glass strain insulators, for that vintage look) to work. Don't forget the home-made antenna lead-in lightning arrestor made from an automobile spark plug.

A copper ground rod outside the window, connected to the radio chassis by a thick copper wire and "fertilized" with copper sulfate crystals to improve the soil conductivity, would improve the AM HD reception and would add a nice "retro" touch.

It's like the song says: "Everything old is new again!" :) -- Jason

> > It may have been in your case, but that is not a 100%
> fact.
> > My HD's cover about 75% of the main channel. Because
>
> I don't have a mobile receiver, but at my fixed location a
> considerably better antenna is required to receive HD
> signals than for analog. (same receiver)
>
> My set came with a 19" wire antenna for FM and a small loop
> for AM. With the wire antenna, I get *no* HD reception.
> (the set knows that some stations *have* HD but it can't
> decode it) If I connect the outdoor TV antenna I get all
> three local "FM" HD stations.
>
> (don't have anything between the wire and the outdoor
> antenna to test, I would imagine the FM antenna requirement
> lies closer to the wire end than to the outdoor Yagi end...
> a "twin-lead T" would probably do the trick, I ought to make
> one.)
>
> On AM, it is nearly impossible to find an antenna
> orientation that will bring in our only "AM" HD station for
> more than a second or two. This morning is the first time
> I've been able to get it to stay locked. (and since I can't
> stand the program I'm not exhaustively testing it)
>
> Both AM and FM, I can get perfectly clean analog reception
> from the same stations on the antennas provided with the
> set. (and other radios generally deliver clean signals from
> these stations with similar antennas) My location is
> roughly 20 miles from the (50kw) AM station and one of the
> FMs, and roughly 30 miles from the other two FMs. (all
> three FMs are 80-100kw)
>
> So at least with this set, I do see a serious deficit in HD
> coverage compared to analog.
>
 
> You must really hate CD's and web streams!
> Digital sources should not process because there is no noise
> floor to stay above (ie, the S/N ratio will always be
> infinite) but you are welcome to add a processor to your
> sound chain!

I can't speak for Jeremy, but I prefer the sound of reel-to-reel audio tapes and high-fidelity LP records to CDs. To me, CD sound has a dry, sterile quality lacking in warmth and richness, similar to the sound of FM.

CDs sound clear and crisp to be sure, but they just don't sound as good as tapes or LPs. -- Jason
 
> Interesting and where do you live in a Class C allocated
> area on open flat terrian? if we never see a higher power
> HD than this technology will fail unless you live near the
> transmitter. I'm assuming and i hope this is the not case
> but the HD receivers need to improved to keep an HD locked
> signal but i just can't imagine that happening when you
> traveling through constantly changing terrain based on my
> current observations of driving around the HD signal seems
> to have more characteristics of Light (just an analogy) "on
> and off" even within 15 miles of the transmitter because of
> a hill.......if anyone else has the new jvc let us know what
> you think

I live in an area filled with Class B's. The terrain is hilly.

My 50KW FM's can be heard in analog from 0-40 clear, and 40-60 miles moderately. After that, it's a crapshoot.

Using a Kenwood receiver and a short in-glass antenna (in a 2005 GM) I can get the HD signal reliably for almost 40 miles. It's a on and off after that. So essentially, the HD travels as far as the city-grade signal, and then some. Exactly as advertised (HD is supposed to travel only as far as the analog "city-grade" contour).

You are right in that the receivers need to be improved. Outdoor reception of HD is very good. Indoor is tough because you don't have the high power density of the analog signal. The truth is that you won't se many "clock-radio" types of receivers, but will see table-top sets with good antennas, as well as car radios, boom-boxes, and "walkman" style radios.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
> Don't anyone in their cars use window antennae or stubby
> rubber antennae, now!
> Lets have no reports on car performance unless you are using
> a real man's thirty inch stainless steel rod. It is a size
> thing, ya know!
>

INDEED! Doc what do you have to say for your self Mr. In-The-Windshield-Antenna-user-Guy???? LOL
 
> >
> > Sound quality: I really prefer the FM processed sound to
> the
> > XM sound HD rsdio has. But I guess thats because I'm a
> radio
> > geek to the extreme.
> >
>
> You must really hate CD's and web streams!
> Digital sources should not process because there is no noise
> floor to stay above (ie, the S/N ratio will always be
> infinite) but you are welcome to add a processor to your
> sound chain!

Actually there is a noise floor to stay above.... the interior of a car, an office, (or to not as much of an extent) home.


>
> Actually, it has always been my view that a variable
> adjustable compressor in car and portable units would help
> in noisy environments. They could also be made with a
> linked mode, as the volume is increases, the compression
> would likewise increase.
>
 
> My 50KW FM's can be heard in analog from 0-40 clear, and
> 40-60 miles moderately. After that, it's a crapshoot.
>
> Using a Kenwood receiver and a short in-glass antenna (in a
> 2005 GM) I can get the HD signal reliably for almost 40
> miles. It's a on and off after that. So essentially, the
> HD travels as far as the city-grade signal, and then some.
> Exactly as advertised (HD is supposed to travel only as far
> as the analog "city-grade" contour).
>
> You are right in that the receivers need to be improved.
> Outdoor reception of HD is very good. Indoor is tough
> because you don't have the high power density of the analog
> signal. The truth is that you won't se many "clock-radio"
> types of receivers, but will see table-top sets with good
> antennas, as well as car radios, boom-boxes, and "walkman"
> style radios.

I hate the stupid in the glass antennas - my grandfathers 2003 Rendezvous radio looses stations much sooner than my 96 Cadillac with the whip antenna. Hell, I can get WJRZ on the Pennsylvania Turnpike!<P ID="signature">______________

AOL IM: wnjoldies
HyLitRadio.com
Oldies Board co-moderator</P>
 
> > Digital sources should not process because there is no
> noise
> > floor to stay above (ie, the S/N ratio will always be
> > infinite) but you are welcome to add a processor to your
> > sound chain!
>
> Actually there is a noise floor to stay above.... the
> interior of a car, an office, (or to not as much of an
> extent) home.

The DTV standard has provisions for transmitting information about one's audio compression settings, so that the receiver can partially or fully "undo" them if the listening (/viewing) environment permits.

Does the HD radio standard have similar provisions?
 
> > > Digital sources should not process because there is no
> > noise
> > > floor to stay above (ie, the S/N ratio will always be
> > > infinite) but you are welcome to add a processor to your
>
> > > sound chain!
> >
> > Actually there is a noise floor to stay above.... the
> > interior of a car, an office, (or to not as much of an
> > extent) home.
>
> The DTV standard has provisions for transmitting information
> about one's audio compression settings, so that the receiver
> can partially or fully "undo" them if the listening
> (/viewing) environment permits.
>
> Does the HD radio standard have similar provisions?
>

I am not aware of such informatoin being able to be passed.

Quesion.,... How many people would actually know what to do with such flexibility?
 
When I was a kid, I also liked heavy reverb.
I remember how back in the sixties and early seventies FM did not "sound" like radio because it was too crispy; like it was not tuned in properly.
When we grow used to bad anything, we accept it as right and normal, and any change for the better or worse challenges our world view, our perception of reality.<P ID="signature">______________
Proud 2 B a pioneering satellite radio subs¢riber
Ai4i is always on the trailing edge of technology
______________</P>
 
> The real time facts of HD from the new JVC that gets the HD
> 1,2 and 3
>
> 1. Sriking sound in HD :)
>
> 2. Only large metro areas have HD
>
> 3. Most subchannel formats are nothing more then a variant
> of the main channel's format; hopefully these formats will
> DIVERSIFY as more stations go on the air with HD-2.
>
> 4. *Actual HD coverage is about 50% less than the Analog
> coverage on a majority of the stations.
>
>
> *Right now most HD stations are broadcasting at a fraction
> of the main channel's output(maybe full power IBOC hash
> would interfere with analog) thus the HD coverage to be
> blunt "s**ks"! this in contrast to all the hype i have
> heard. In Real time also the HD signal is EXTREMELY
> sensitive to any line of sight obstructions including wooded
> areas even in the primary service area. Most stations
> (stable) coverage is limited to about 30 miles (NYC &
> Philly) beyond that the the HD light is constantly flashing
> without locking onto the HD signal; maybe its the JVC that
> has issues or both the radio and transmitter power..
>
> Kudos to WOR 710 with stable HD coverage to 60 miles and to
> WCBS-FM 101.1 for having the largest stable FM HD coverage
> 45 miles!! with spotty coverage out to 100km from the Empire
> State building (nice to listen to jack fm HD-1 and CBS FM
> HD-2 in central nj now for the time being crystal clear
> digital rather than the crosstalk crap with from B-101 but
> wait B 101 is gearing up for IBOC soon!!)
>
> Before you run out and get an HD radio just be aware this
> technology is new and has issues that need to be worked out
> or its go the way of AM stereo..
>

not true on the large Metros, Huntsville AL has 2 HD FMs, 2 more than I thought we would have for quite a while
<P ID="signature">______________
<div align="center"><a href="http://wolf103.tk">
wolf103ownerUB.png
</P></span></P></span>
</P>
 
> When I was a kid, I also liked heavy reverb.
> I remember how back in the sixties and early seventies FM
> did not "sound" like radio because it was too crispy; like
> it was not tuned in properly.

Oh yes, I remember the FM Disc Jockeys who delighted in that "over-crisp" sound. They loved to do things like crumpling a piece of paper in front of the microphone, because it sounded like the crackle of a fire.

> When we grow used to bad anything, we accept it as right and
> normal, and any change for the better or worse challenges
> our world view, our perception of reality.

Indeed--it's the same thing with Compact Discs. They don't sound bad, but compared to LP records or 1/2" reel-to-reel tapes, CDs sound rather flat. But because most people under the age of 25 or so have never heard LPs or 1/2" tapes, to them the CD is the gold standard of high-fidelity audio quality. -- Jason
 
> > Don't anyone in their cars use window antennae or stubby
> > rubber antennae, now!
> > Lets have no reports on car performance unless you are
> using
> > a real man's thirty inch stainless steel rod. It is a size
>
> > thing, ya know!
> >
>
> INDEED! Doc what do you have to say for your self Mr.
> In-The-Windshield-Antenna-user-Guy???? LOL
>
that should be a bud light commercial<P ID="signature">______________
<div align="center"><a href="http://wolf103.tk">
wolf103ownerUB.png
</P></span></P></span>
</P>
 
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