HD Radio is just for "radio geeks"

[700WLW]

From MIDWESTCLUBBER, on the site that I am not allowed to link to, but have at least made the attempt, so hopefully, this won't cause a TOS violation:

"I hope to see a coverage improvement, I think thats gonna be the big setback. People arent gonna know to get different antennas, and mess with them for hours to get reception, people expect to plug new stuff in and use it. I dont think HD radios are very female friendly either, girls dont want to mess around with an antenna all day, most people string their antenna's back behind their dressor and forget about it. HD wont come in this way, you have to work and experiment, and maybe even move the radio around to different parts of their room. They will really have to improve coverage if they want anyone other than us radiogeeks buying them."

This guy, is an avid HD Radio fan, but at least he is honest and has stated, what we have been reiterating over here for months ! Unfortunately, he is just dreaming, because the HD channels can only be transmitted at 1/100th the power of the main carrier signal, as to not interfere. Is there anything else, left to debate ?

 

[Mike Walker]

Again, 100th the power would be a real limitation if it were necessary to recover a clean analog sound, with a high signal to noise ratio. But s/r ratio can be VERY low and still work just fine if all a radio must do is determine the difference between a 1 and a 0. A 5db s/r ratio can yield the same 96db dynamic range as a 70db s/n ratio.

Also, anyone who understands VHF and higher frequencies knows that it's TOWER HEIGHT that's most important to coverage, not power. A 1000 watt signal with an antenna 1000 feet above average terrain will have better coverage (especially if there are hills in the terrain) than a 100,000 watt signal with an antenna 100 feet above average terrain. Radio theory 101! THAT (radio theory) is what's "left to debate".

Satellite transponders have only 10 watts (or 100 watts), and yet their signal goes THOUSANDS of miles. Why? ANTENNA HEIGHT!

 

[700WLW]

Again, 100th the power would be a real limitation if it were necessary to recover a clean analog sound, with a high signal to noise ratio. But s/r ratio can be VERY low and still work just fine if all a radio must do is determine the difference between a 1 and a 0. A 5db s/r ratio can yield the same 96db dynamic range as a 70db s/n ratio.

Also, anyone who understands VHF and higher frequencies knows that it's TOWER HEIGHT that's most important to coverage, not power. A 1000 watt signal with an antenna 1000 feet above average terrain will have better coverage (especially if there are hills in the terrain) than a 100,000 watt signal with an antenna 100 feet above average terrain. Radio theory 101! THAT (radio theory) is what's "left to debate".

Satellite transponders have only 10 watts (or 100 watts), and yet their signal goes THOUSANDS of miles. Why? ANTENNA HEIGHT!

I have no idea, what you are talking about !

"The injected level of the. IBOC signal is 1/100. th. (-20dB) the level of the. FM signal. ..."

http://www.jampro.com/tech/HDoverview.pdf

Something, has to explain IBOC's lousy coverage !

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Again, 100th the power would be a real limitation if it were necessary to recover a clean analog sound, with a high signal to noise ratio. But s/r ratio can be VERY low and still work just fine if all a radio must do is determine the difference between a 1 and a 0. A 5db s/r ratio can yield the same 96db dynamic range as a 70db s/n ratio.

Also, anyone who understands VHF and higher frequencies knows that it's TOWER HEIGHT that's most important to coverage, not power. A 1000 watt signal with an antenna 1000 feet above average terrain will have better coverage (especially if there are hills in the terrain) than a 100,000 watt signal with an antenna 100 feet above average terrain. Radio theory 101! THAT (radio theory) is what's "left to debate".

Satellite transponders have only 10 watts (or 100 watts), and yet their signal goes THOUSANDS of miles. Why? ANTENNA HEIGHT!

I have no idea, what you are talking about !

"The injected level of the. IBOC signal is 1/100. th. (-20dB) the level of the. FM signal. ..."

http://www.jampro.com/tech/HDoverview.pdf

Something, has to explain IBOC's lousy coverage !

And Mike Walker certainly won't. He's too busy supporting the HD cartel.
Digital radio transmissions' immunity from interference and multipath is greatly exaggerated. FM does a good job, because it has a "capture ratio" that digital does not. Noise and multipath, scramble and distort digital signals, and cause lost bits and packets, that mute, squelch, or cause the HD radio to rebuffer. FM radios could be made that buffer and squelch when multipath is encountered, giving similar results to HD Radio, without the defects and interference of the new iBiquity/HD Radio transmission system.
The HD supporters use digital cell phone unreliability as reasons why digital radio transmission is unreliable, not realizing the same applies to HD Radio in spades.

 

[700WLW]

A bit off the subject, but one of the moderators on the "other" board, suspects that I posted some anti-IBOC propaganda, in one of the most recent threads - actually, he left quite a threatening note to me, that, "he knows who I am, and I know who I am". Of course, I know, who I am !

 

[Black_Shire]

Again, 100th the power would be a real limitation if it were necessary to recover a clean analog sound, with a high signal to noise ratio. But s/r ratio can be VERY low and still work just fine if all a radio must do is determine the difference between a 1 and a 0. A 5db s/r ratio can yield the same 96db dynamic range as a 70db s/n ratio.

Also, anyone who understands VHF and higher frequencies knows that it's TOWER HEIGHT that's most important to coverage, not power. A 1000 watt signal with an antenna 1000 feet above average terrain will have better coverage (especially if there are hills in the terrain) than a 100,000 watt signal with an antenna 100 feet above average terrain. Radio theory 101! THAT (radio theory) is what's "left to debate".

Satellite transponders have only 10 watts (or 100 watts), and yet their signal goes THOUSANDS of miles. Why? ANTENNA HEIGHT!

That's true, but I'd rather not have to resort to using a high-gain FM-size dish antenna or trough-reflector antenna to reliably decode FM HD signals at home, and the car versions of such antennas would be...interesting, to say the least.


-- Black Shire

 

[Chuck]

Also, anyone who understands VHF and higher frequencies knows that it's TOWER HEIGHT that's most important to coverage, not power. A 1000 watt signal with an antenna 1000 feet above average terrain will have better coverage (especially if there are hills in the terrain) than a 100,000 watt signal with an antenna 100 feet above average terrain. Radio theory 101! THAT (radio theory) is what's "left to debate".

Satellite transponders have only 10 watts (or 100 watts), and yet their signal goes THOUSANDS of miles. Why? ANTENNA HEIGHT!

Yes, but it takes power to penetrate buildings, trees and other things that tend to block the signal. Satellite radio doesn't penetrate buildings (unless they are glass) and HD has similar issues. My satellite radio craps out on a street with lots of tree growth.

A combination of power and height is the most effective solution for FM. That's why there are 100 KW stations on 1500-2000 foot towers. If that combination didn't work, nobody would do it. We'd be a country of 1000 watt stations on 1500 foot towers.

 

[Mike Walker]

Yeah, I'm supporting the "HD Cartel". In fact I just got a check from 'em the other day! Thanks for the giggle. I'll have to take a pic of my elaborate "HD Cartel"-financed rig (a glorified set of rabbit ears, sitting on top of a Sopranos board game box, on my dresser, cabled to a 100 dollar table radio on top of my tv). Yep, "dat' cartel dun' been purty good to me, missa'!"

"HD Cartel". As if such a thing were possible. Ever gotten twenty radio broadcasters in a room to agree on ANYTHING (including that coverage is better with the transmitter ON!)??? A "vast HD Cartel" is about as likely as the "vast left-wing conspiracy" the right-wing talk hosts would have us believe the Democrats are involved in. As a lifelong broadcaster AND Democrat, the idea that either group is organized enough for such to be possible is pretty amusing!

 

[SUPERCASTER]

A bit off the subject, but one of the moderators on the "other" board, suspects that I posted some anti-IBOC propaganda, in one of the most recent threads - actually, he left quite a threatening note to me, that, "he knows who I am, and I know who I am". Of course, I know, who I am !

Oh, no! Not psycho-terrorists again!

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Yeah, I'm supporting the "HD Cartel". In fact I just got a check from 'em the other day! Thanks for the giggle. I'll have to take a pic of my elaborate "HD Cartel"-financed rig (a glorified set of rabbit ears, sitting on top of a Sopranos board game box, on my dresser, cabled to a 100 dollar table radio on top of my tv). Yep, "dat' cartel dun' been purty good to me, missa'!"

"HD Cartel". As if such a thing were possible. Ever gotten twenty radio broadcasters in a room to agree on ANYTHING (including that coverage is better with the transmitter ON!)??? A "vast HD Cartel" is about as likely as the "vast left-wing conspiracy" the right-wing talk hosts would have us believe the Democrats are involved in. As a lifelong broadcaster AND Democrat, the idea that either group is organized enough for such to be possible is pretty amusing!

You are far to easily amused, entertained, and apparently, underpaid for all your huckstering.
You should ask for a raise for hyping this HD Radio turkey.

No such group of broadcasters is possible?
Here is their website:
http://www.hdradioalliance.com/index.php
Here is their membership list:
http://www.hdradio.com/press_room.php#alliancemembers
By definition they qualify as a cartel.

car·tel [ kaar tél ] (plural car·tels)


noun

Definition:

1. group of businesses controlling market: an alliance of business companies formed to control production, competition, and prices

Source:
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/cartel.html

Have a nice day.

 

[Mike Walker]

I stand (sit actuallY) corrected. There IS a pro-hd group (call it a cartel if you like. I won't lose sleep over it).

Say...did ya' find my name on that list? :-\

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I stand (sit actuallY) corrected. There IS a pro-hd group (call it a cartel if you like. I won't lose sleep over it).

Say...did ya' find my name on that list? :-\

Underlings, and employees don't get listed. None are mentioned by name, including the cartel's lobbyists.

 

[Mike Walker]

you're right about HD Radio not penetrating buildings with steel superstructures (malls, etc...the places where Radio Shack stores are located!) But then, traditional analog radio doesn't penetrate these places that well either. I don't know how many times John at my local Radio Shack store has said "go ahead and take that radio out on the sidewalk to listen, Mike. You won't get anything in here!" Another reason it's good to be known by name at your local electronics store!

I'm not saying there isn't a problem with reception deep inside steel structures (like office buildings). I don't live or work in such a location, but I SUSPECT that most are in downtown locations where signals are so strong that HD will penetrate better than satellite, for instance. At my EXTREME fringe location, my XM antenna must be by a window, but the FM antenna driving my Accurian can be in the middle of the room and still get good reception (admittedly not a great example, because I live in a brick home with wood frame underneath). Still, it does show that HD penetrates better than satellite radio (even at extreme distances like 70-80 miles). So it HAS to penetrate better closer in to the tower.

I'm not saying it's not a problem. I have no firsthand knowledge (of reception inside an office building). Just an educated (through a couple of months experience) guess. Anybody who works in an office want to comment on HD penetration vs XM or Sirius? (anybody who actually has some experience to relate!)

 

[Mike Walker]

I am neither an "underling", not an "employee" of anyone! Since 1998 I've been SELF-EMPLOYED (I'm proud to say). My business is called "The Production Room". Here's a link to my website http://www.theproductionroom.net

I have neither the temperment, nor the patience (as those here can attest!) at this point in my life to be an "employee" or an "underling". I WILL say and do as I please...as my own opinions and beliefs lead me to behanve. An attitude that can get one into trouble on the job!

 

[700WLW]

you're right about HD Radio not penetrating buildings with steel superstructures (malls, etc...the places where Radio Shack stores are located!) But then, traditional analog radio doesn't penetrate these places that well either. I don't know how many times John at my local Radio Shack store has said "go ahead and take that radio out on the sidewalk to listen, Mike. You won't get anything in here!" Another reason it's good to be known by name at your local electronics store!

I'm not saying there isn't a problem with reception deep inside steel structures (like office buildings). I don't live or work in such a location, but I SUSPECT that most are in downtown locations where signals are so strong that HD will penetrate better than satellite, for instance. At my EXTREME fringe location, my XM antenna must be by a window, but the FM antenna driving my Accurian can be in the middle of the room and still get good reception (admittedly not a great example, because I live in a brick home with wood frame underneath). Still, it does show that HD penetrates better than satellite radio (even at extreme distances like 70-80 miles). So it HAS to penetrate better closer in to the tower.

I'm not saying it's not a problem. I have no firsthand knowledge (of reception inside an office building). Just an educated (through a couple of months experience) guess. Anybody who works in an office want to comment on HD penetration vs XM or Sirius? (anybody who actually has some experience to relate!)

Inside an electronics dealer, the Receptor HD got only two FM stations, while the analog boom-boxes got many, clearly !

 

[700WLW]

you're right about HD Radio not penetrating buildings with steel superstructures (malls, etc...the places where Radio Shack stores are located!) But then, traditional analog radio doesn't penetrate these places that well either. I don't know how many times John at my local Radio Shack store has said "go ahead and take that radio out on the sidewalk to listen, Mike. You won't get anything in here!" Another reason it's good to be known by name at your local electronics store!

I'm not saying there isn't a problem with reception deep inside steel structures (like office buildings). I don't live or work in such a location, but I SUSPECT that most are in downtown locations where signals are so strong that HD will penetrate better than satellite, for instance. At my EXTREME fringe location, my XM antenna must be by a window, but the FM antenna driving my Accurian can be in the middle of the room and still get good reception (admittedly not a great example, because I live in a brick home with wood frame underneath). Still, it does show that HD penetrates better than satellite radio (even at extreme distances like 70-80 miles). So it HAS to penetrate better closer in to the tower.

I'm not saying it's not a problem. I have no firsthand knowledge (of reception inside an office building). Just an educated (through a couple of months experience) guess. Anybody who works in an office want to comment on HD penetration vs XM or Sirius? (anybody who actually has some experience to relate!)

Inside an electronics dealer, the Receptor HD got only two FM stations, while the analog boom-boxes got many, clearly !

 

[Mike Walker]

The Receptor has no whip antenna (table radios don't, boomboxes do). What kind of antenna was being used with the Receptor? It was most likely the antenna at fault rather than the radio. Yes analog tuned radios can be as sensitive, or more sensitive than fancy digitally tuned ones. But a cheap boombox vs a high-end table radio from a reputable dealer? It's probably the antenna

 

[700WLW]

The Receptor has no whip antenna (table radios don't, boomboxes do). What kind of antenna was being used with the Receptor? It was most likely the antenna at fault rather than the radio. Yes analog tuned radios can be as sensitive, or more sensitive than fancy digitally tuned ones. But a cheap boombox vs a high-end table radio from a reputable dealer? It's probably the antenna

It was the supplied long-wire antenna - I guess, they didn't want to turn-off customers, by having to mount the 7-foot dipole antenna, not that they would have had room for it, anyway.

 

[ElCheapo]

Don't worry guys - HD Radio is about to be for everyone... Coming soon to a Ford near you! ;D

Then GM, then Toyota...

 

[700WLW]

Don't worry guys - HD Radio is about to be for everyone... Coming soon to a Ford near you! ;D

Then GM, then Toyota...

There is no demand for HD Radio - LOL ! The new Sync, at Ford, will force the other automakers to do the same, in order to remain competitive.