HD Radio is NOT Sirius and it is NOT DX

[nd2023]

I went to a Radio Shack in New York City to see how they sell HD radios. I asked a sales associate if there were any HD Radios. He looked through the display of radios, I had spotted an HD radio, and he pointed to a Sirius radio that was placed right above an HD radio. When he talked about a monthly fee, I told him that I heard ads (the HD Alliance ads) that say that there is no monthly fee.

Asked another sales associate in the same store about HD radio, and he pointed right to the HD radio. I asked if he could test it out, and it did not work even for analog. The store was only 8 blocks from the Empire State Building and not even the analog reception worked. There was no antenna connected. At the same time, the Sirius radio was blasting 90s on 9. If they can connect a Sirius antenna, why not connect a regular antenna. At that location, even a coat hanger near the window will get HD reception. I asked him about the features of HD radio and he said that the audio was in "high definition" and I could pick up more stations from places like Philadelphia and Boston (that's DX reception, not HD multicasting). And they wonder why they don't sell HD radios.

Here's the best part. I bought a pack of M&Ms and the clerk did not ask me if I wanted batteries with my candy. I pointed that out, and got 4 free batteries.

 

[TheBigA]

This is more a criticism of the store than anything else. I used to work in one of these stores, and they USED to spend a lot of time and even money training their sales associates on the products they sell. Obviously training has gone out the window.

 

[nd2023]

Yeah, instead of training your employees to ask "would you like batteries with your purchase", why not train them how to operate an HD radio? And the color codes for resistors? Why even sell candy at a Radio Shack? If I were working there, I would be annoyed at having to ask everyone if they wanted batteries with their purchase, even if their item doesn't need batteries.
The cashier I bought the M&M's from and got the free batteries from was the same person that told me that Sirius is HD radio. Maybe if he had pointed out the HD radio and knew what multicasting was, I wouldn't have asked him for free batteries.

 

[clouseau]

Ah yes. I too was an RS associate briefly. Knowledge and helpfulness went a long way for me. Conversly, a tight sweater and a cute smile served another coworker well. Not so much for me!

These days, it's a lot easier to make a living being "Cell Phone" Shack as opposed to "Small Parts" Shack.

When there's no spiff for HD, "You need satellite".

Cloudeau

 

[R.F. Burns]

I have to step in here and clear some things up because obviously no has cleared up the confusion that you have. First and most important. I don't care if you are next door to Empire. There are NO AM BROADCAST STATIONS anywhere near the Empire State Building. FM's Yes, TV's yes AM's NO!! Most AM facilities are directional and in the Jersey swamps. The ones which aren't? WCBS, WFAN (On an island off of the Bronx)...WQXR (IN Queens) THAT's it and Empire is in the middle of the island in the 30's. Also, sitting belieth a transmitter site like Empire there are dead zones even though you are close to the antennas. Also, you are most likely in a heavily shielded buiding. That's tough on RF. If they had a properly operating radio you would receive HD sttions but obviosuly the store you went to had no idea what they were selling and that is one of the reasons why business is in trouble and companies like Circuit City are out of business. Try J&R Music world. I bought HD radios from them and they know what they are talking about at least that was my experience. NYC is loaded with HD stations on AM and many more on FM and also most are running HD 2 channels and also HD 3 channels. WFAN, WABC, WCBS, WINS are all available on NY HD 3 channels, so AM radio in Manhattan is unimportant becuase these four stations also do AM HD. The only other AM HD station in the city is WQEW and they are Radio Disney. If that's what you want enjoy. If you want the other AM HD outlets check out their HD 3 channels. Hope this answers some questions for you without the snide remarks some in here, without the slightest hint of what radio is like in NYC, might make.

 

[4dude]

Maybe they hate HD radio and are trying to make it look bad.. (Wouldnt surprise me (They know it sucks))

 

[Chuck]

Did I miss the part about AM? I think the original poster said it didn't get any HD. Wouldn't that include FM as well? It seems like at that distance from the Empire State, it should have received something, even with a minimal antenna.

 

[nd2023]

I think there is supposed to be a wire antenna attached to the back, and it wasn't. So all it got was FM in analog with lots of static. The average person would think that is what HD sounds like. The AM had severe interference, and no AM stations were receivable at all. There obviously was an external antenna attached to the Sirius radio that was blasting music in the entire store. The HD alliance should focus on every store selling HD radios, and make sure that they install an external antenna for the display units.

Radio Shack, you've got questions, we've got Sirius.

 

[KB1OKL]

This is more a criticism of the store than anything else. I used to work in one of these stores, and they USED to spend a lot of time and even money training their sales associates on the products they sell. Obviously training has gone out the window.

I would have to say that this reply begs the question:
With the dismal sales track record HD radio has had since it's inception despite all the free advertising on radio, does anyone here think Rat Shack would waste money trying to train sales people on something that just doesn't sell? Do sales people need to be trained on how to work a cell phone or an analog AM-FM receiver?? How about a computer? Nope because all you do is turn them on and they work, they sell themselves, they are obvious and make sense, HD radio isn't and doesn't.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

I have to step in here and clear some things up because obviously no has cleared up the confusion that you have.

The only person here who appears to be confused is you, because no one mentioned AM's transmitting from Manhattan.

NYC is loaded with HD stations on AM and many more on FM and also most are running HD 2 channels and also HD 3 channels. WFAN, WABC, WCBS, WINS are all available on NY HD 3 channels, so AM radio in Manhattan is unimportant becuase these four stations also do AM HD. The only other AM HD station in the city is WQEW and they are Radio Disney. If that's what you want enjoy. If you want the other AM HD outlets check out their HD 3 channels.

Have you been living in a bomb shelter for the last ten years? Pronouncing AM "unimportant" because AM signals are being simulcast on HD secondaries is just about the funniest/most pathetic thing I've seen here. The multi-millions of people in the NY metro who don't have HD radios and who listen to AM *ON* AM would just shake their collective heads in amazement over anything so completely out of touch with reality. Considering that, according to the HD folks, a measly one million radios have been sold (vs. 800 million-plus analog radios already out there), HD isn't even making the tiniest dent...and now you come along and pronounce AM "unimportant."

Thanks for the best laugh of the day.

 

[Savage]

The SECOND best laugh of the day. (Albeit a nervous one....)

I just can't help wondering whether Clouseau's Radio Shack career would have been more successful if he had tried the cute smile and tight sweater.

And: trying to improve AM listenership with HD subchannel simulcasts? Excuse me, but that's kind of like using longnose pliers and a Vise-Grip to tie your shoes. I think it's one of the dumbest of a long list of dumb ideas coming from the HD camp. Good grief, what's next? "Let's revive commercial shortwave broadcasting!! Announcing: SW on HD!!!"

 

[R.F. Burns]

I have to step in here and clear some things up because obviously no has cleared up the confusion that you have.

The only person here who appears to be confused is you, because no one mentioned AM's transmitting from Manhattan.

NYC is loaded with HD stations on AM and many more on FM and also most are running HD 2 channels and also HD 3 channels. WFAN, WABC, WCBS, WINS are all available on NY HD 3 channels, so AM radio in Manhattan is unimportant becuase these four stations also do AM HD. The only other AM HD station in the city is WQEW and they are Radio Disney. If that's what you want enjoy. If you want the other AM HD outlets check out their HD 3 channels.

Have you been living in a bomb shelter for the last ten years? Pronouncing AM "unimportant" because AM signals are being simulcast on HD secondaries is just about the funniest/most pathetic thing I've seen here. The multi-millions of people in the NY metro who don't have HD radios and who listen to AM *ON* AM would just shake their collective heads in amazement over anything so completely out of touch with reality. Considering that, according to the HD folks, a measly one million radios have been sold (vs. 800 million-plus analog radios already out there), HD isn't even making the tiniest dent...and now you come along and pronounce AM "unimportant."

Thanks for the best laugh of the day.

The above post demonstrate why I rarely participate in this forum. AM radio is a dinosaur and on its last legs. In Canada they've moved the CBC stations off of their traditional AM positions over to FM's. Here in the US no one, Ok very few people between the ages of 15 and 40 listen to AM radio. Its audience is composed mostly of 55 plus listeners which might work for the local stand alone but not for most stations in this country. Let's take a quick look at the NY AM dial. We have 8 "traditional" 50 KW facilities (We have others such as WADO but they are on regional frequencies and relatively poor coverage, compared with other the NY clear channels stations. WFAN is all sports and is 24/7 local. WOR has some local programming and some syndicated fare. It also runs some infomercials. WABC is outside of the show, Religion On The Line on Sunday mornings, is totally syndicated. WCBS AND WINS are all live and local. WEPN 1050 is ESPN sports and has 3 listeners. It's basically a loss leader for ESPN sports. 1130 WBBR had some local programming. It's now rebroadcasting Bloomberg Business reports and is also a loss leader. WQEW 1560 is Radio Disney and does not make a profit as a local station. Of course I'm sure they have low operating costs. They don't make the NY 12+ ratings and probably have a handful of listeners if that. So there we are in the nations number one market. We have 3, 50 KW Am's which are live and local. The remaining four 50 KW stations either have limited or no local presence. They operate as repeaters for syndicators. Stations under 50 KW aren't even worth considering here. That doesn't speak very well for the state of AM radio in a larger market. I really don't care if HD survives on AM radio. For the most part the programming currently heard on AM radio isn't worth and that is a sign of things to come. It all comes down to money. While WABC shows up in the NY top ten, their billing is relatively low because their audience demographics tilt very old. Advertisers don’t want old. Choose to believe what you will but, the writing is on the wall.

 

[calstymes]

dumber than a box of hair aptly observed:

Quote from: R.F. Burns on Yesterday at 06:06:48 pm

I have to step in here and clear some things up because obviously no has cleared up the confusion that you have.

The only person here who appears to be confused is you, because no one mentioned AM's transmitting from Manhattan.

Boy I sure do agree with THAT observation!

Quote from: R.F. Burns on Yesterday at 06:06:48 pm

NYC is loaded with HD stations on AM and many more on FM and also most are running HD 2 channels and also HD 3 channels. WFAN, WABC, WCBS, WINS are all available on NY HD 3 channels, so AM radio in Manhattan is unimportant becuase these four stations also do AM HD. The only other AM HD station in the city is WQEW and they are Radio Disney. If that's what you want enjoy. If you want the other AM HD outlets check out their HD 3 channels.

Have you been living in a bomb shelter for the last ten years? Pronouncing AM "unimportant" because AM signals are being simulcast on HD secondaries is just about the funniest/most pathetic thing I've seen here. The multi-millions of people in the NY metro who don't have HD radios and who listen to AM *ON* AM would just shake their collective heads in amazement over anything so completely out of touch with reality. Considering that, according to the HD folks, a measly one million radios have been sold (vs. 800 million-plus analog radios already out there), HD isn't even making the tiniest dent...and now you come along and pronounce AM "unimportant."

Thanks for the best laugh of the day.

Wow, I don't think that is funny at all. Poor Mr. Burns. Perhaps he has been around a high-RF environment for too long? I know he is employed by a major broadcaster in the #1 market and he has all the real facts that us peons can't even begin to fathom but maybe it is possible that the company for which he works is just making him crazy. I know if I worked for his company it would likely make me crazy too!

The old R.F. used to applaud IBOC as the technology that would save AM radio from becoming obsolete and now that it looks like IBOC has actually ruined AM radio reception instead, he continues to make excuses for this sorry product to the extent that AM doesn't matter in the urban jungle anymore because you can get some of them on FM HD-3 now! Well now, that is so sad! Madness manifests itself rather slowly. No wonder he has been so quiet lately!

He sure does sound angry though, don't you think? I guess if I had said all the things he has said (using several different alter-egos) over the past few years and then found out that I had been taken for a ride, I guess that I would be angry too! Those naughty, naughty IBOC people. They stretched the truth and tried to change the laws of physics and I fell for it, hook, line and sinker.

 

[Ai4i]

I went to a Radio Shack in New York City...the Sirius radio was blasting 90s on 9.

You never told us, how did you like channel nine?

 

[Carmine5]

I have to step in here and clear some things up because obviously no has cleared up the confusion that you have.

The only person here who appears to be confused is you, because no one mentioned AM's transmitting from Manhattan.

NYC is loaded with HD stations on AM and many more on FM and also most are running HD 2 channels and also HD 3 channels. WFAN, WABC, WCBS, WINS are all available on NY HD 3 channels, so AM radio in Manhattan is unimportant becuase these four stations also do AM HD. The only other AM HD station in the city is WQEW and they are Radio Disney. If that's what you want enjoy. If you want the other AM HD outlets check out their HD 3 channels.

Have you been living in a bomb shelter for the last ten years? Pronouncing AM "unimportant" because AM signals are being simulcast on HD secondaries is just about the funniest/most pathetic thing I've seen here. The multi-millions of people in the NY metro who don't have HD radios and who listen to AM *ON* AM would just shake their collective heads in amazement over anything so completely out of touch with reality. Considering that, according to the HD folks, a measly one million radios have been sold (vs. 800 million-plus analog radios already out there), HD isn't even making the tiniest dent...and now you come along and pronounce AM "unimportant."

Thanks for the best laugh of the day.

Precisely. If people truly aren't listening to AM ON AM, with the millions of analog radios currently in circulation, then you know darn well they aren't listening to AM programming on an HD side channel, and likely won't be in the foreseeable future. That idea is a dead loss.

IMO, AM has a much better chance of survival staying on its own band--provided station owners give attention to the quality of their content, signal and promotion and not short change any of those factors.

C5

 

[JohnnyElectron]

The 50KW Class 1A clears should be working on getting FCC approval for 500KW+ -AND- keeping it live and local - that's what will keep them rolling along.

 

[clouseau]

RF makes an interesting point. I can't say I totally agree, but it IS interesting. In how many marketss are there more than 3 AM radio stations which matter?

It's something to think about. Although if you take out 3 AM's and then maybe twice as many FMs I guess you're already out of the top ten and pretty much irrelevant.

It is amazing how many NYC AMs are irrelevant, now...

Clouseau

 

[nd2023]

People listen to the AM stations for news. If I'm stuck in traffic in the daytime in a faraway city, I would tune around the AM stations for a news station that has traffic reports. I used to listen to Radio Disney on 1560 as a kid only 10 years ago. Most live sports are on AM radio. If I'm at an away game hundreds of miles away, I listen to the postgame show on WOR because its signal is strong at night. Classic oldies sounds better on AM because the songs were made to sound great when played on the radio, and at that time, there was no FM. Amplitude Modulation is not dead. HD Radio is almost dead. 5 years after HD radios were made available to the public, you still have clueless salespeople who think HD is Sirius.

 

[calstymes]

JohnnyElectron did hereby propose:

The 50KW Class 1A clears should be working on getting FCC approval for 500KW+ -AND- keeping it live and local - that's what will keep them rolling along.

It will also probably cause them to roll right into the poorhouse with much higher electric bills! I've heard that power isn't cheap anymore.

And clouseau did hereby exclaim:

It is amazing how many NYC AMs are irrelevant, now...

In your humble estimation, which ones are irrelevant? All of them? The smaller ones? The larger ones? Or just those which have installed IBOC?

 

[Savage]

500kw? Right. There are massive problems with this proposal:

a. Think there might be a little interference problem caused by 500kw? At the time superpower AM was last debated in the late 50s and early 60s, there were 25% of the AM signals on the air today - and superpower was rejected in part because "the band was too crowded" and the interference was believed would be unacceptable. (In 1939, when WLW ended half-megawatt operation, there were something like 300 AM stations on the air, compared with today's 4700.)

b. Who would get superpower versus who would not? Obviously not every 50kw would be able to apply for it. The notion has enormous political implications.

c. Many people think a tenfold increase in power would result in gigantic improvement in coverage. Actually that's not true. For most listeners a half-megawatt would produce something on the order of a 3db to 6db improvement in signal strength. Given today's deaf $10 radios most people wouldn't hear much difference.
When WYSL revised its initial plans to increase day power from 2500 to 10kw, to 2500 to 20kw, the daytime 5.0 mv/m contour in the main lobe moved out about 5 miles. If we had wanted to increase our four-tower array to 6, we could have gotten 50kw daytime - and the 5.0 would have moved ANOTHER 5 miles. Since it already extends to the Lake Ontario shore, the half-million $$ more this would cost was deemed not worth it.

d. As Cal has observed, the utility costs would be enormous. Even with PWM solid-state technology in modern transmitters you'd be looking at $25,000 monthly power bills.