HD Radio is still irrelevant here

[Michael Rivers Kramer]

Someone please wake me when the first broadcaster makes dime one off HD Radio. Now ten years in.

that's more like 5 or 6 years in...

What about FM radio.....It was around for more than 20 years before it began to have a measurable audience.

 

[davideduardo]

Someone please wake me when the first broadcaster makes dime one off HD Radio. Now ten years in.

Quite a few are making money, such as SBS's leased Caribbean format in NY, a dozen or so Indian formats (as in India the nation), Emmis' channels in NY and LA, Univision's Amor Celestial Christian format and Tejano format, etc. Not many, but it shows they can return something on the investment.

 

[nmoore6676]

I expect that fathers and grandfathers of the folks who are complaining about HD radio today were grousing, in their day, about the introduction of color TV or the migration of different formats to FM.

Any uniform standard of technology which delivers a greater selection of content to listeners is fine by me. As K6JHU is pointing out, the HD signals are carrying worthwhile programming that is unavailable elsewhere.

On other boards, I’ve been posting updates about progress in digital radio in the UK, where the government is officially targeting 2015 for the full shutdown of analog FM/AM services. It may be viewed as a ‘gimmick’ by some listeners now, however soon it will become the only game in town.

Having lived through the blossoming of FM, the beginning of color TV and then stereo FM I see a lot of differences. I actually built my first FM tuner from a circuit in Popular Electronics back in 1955 or 56. It was at first a thing for hobbyists, then on to the elite who listened to classical music. Then it really grew after the stereo system was approved pushing the AM band into the trash bin.

Color TV's were a status symbol at first costing as much or more in actual dollars than a big screen HDTV does now, so adjusting for inflation that made them really costly and having one was certainly a bragging point. Nevertheless everyone wanted one just as they now do HDTVs. So there were two factors, the government mandate to digital transmission and the demand for high definition content which can only be delivered digitally driving digital television, just as seeing your favorite shows in color was the craving way back when.

An aside, weren't some of those early shows pretty awful? The colors for the sets and even their clothing were hideous. Colors no one would be seen in on the street one channel on cable has the old Jackie Gleason shows from Miami and some one that large should never have been in bright lime green, yellow, or red. Then on RFD you can see Porter Wagoner and Dolly Parton in equally unflattering hues.

On the radio side in the US there are no plans for a drop dead date like TV so the only driving factor is the hobbyist techno geeks. Most listeners see no real advantage to HD radio and the reception issues where there are broadcasters and the lack of broadcasters in areas such as here in Iowa means that it is going to be a long hard road. People who want digital audio have it streaming on line, from satellite and on CDs or from popular download vendors. Content might drive the use of the sub channels but content could also drive people to use older technology such as AM if that is where it is available.

I am an old timer but I still like the sound of vinyl recordings and I have accepted CDs only because that was forced on me. I own reel to reel tapes and cassettes, I skipped 8-track, but over all of those I still preferred the sound of the LP albums. Because all the stuff I hear on radio now has been digitally processed I doubt that I will care if all of radio goes all digital as regards the sound since my ears have grudgingly adjusted. There are few radio stations with turntables anymore and even those that do own them use them sparingly. I can tell though when they are playing from LPs or sometimes 45s.

 

[davideduardo]

Having lived through the blossoming of FM, the beginning of color TV and then stereo FM I see a lot of differences. I actually built my first FM tuner from a circuit in Popular Electronics back in 1955 or 56. It was at first a thing for hobbyists, then on to the elite who listened to classical music. Then it really grew after the stereo system was approved pushing the AM band into the trash bin.

FM grew when, in 1967, the FCC required the cessation of simulcasts with sister AMs. The FM stereo thing, introduced in '61, took nearly 3 years to reach just 100 stations. Stereo helped in the long run, but it did little in its first years.

 

[LKellerIII]

I got my first FM stereo receiver in 1966. Even then, a number of FM stations were still broadcasting in monaural.

 

[nmoore6676]

Having lived through the blossoming of FM, the beginning of color TV and then stereo FM I see a lot of differences. I actually built my first FM tuner from a circuit in Popular Electronics back in 1955 or 56. It was at first a thing for hobbyists, then on to the elite who listened to classical music. Then it really grew after the stereo system was approved pushing the AM band into the trash bin.

FM grew when, in 1967, the FCC required the cessation of simulcasts with sister AMs. The FM stereo thing, introduced in '61, took nearly 3 years to reach just 100 stations. Stereo helped in the long run, but it did little in its first years.

I guess I was in an unusual place because the most popular FM stations went stereo just after approval. A couple of them had been doing some AM-FM Stereo simulcasts for about a year prior to that. By the third year most all of the FM stations had gone stereo and the young people of which I was one of back then quickly got tuners. I can't count, as my neighborhood techno geek, how many of those adapters I put into my friend's cars to receive FM, though not in stereo, through the AM dashboard radio.

Most of the small towns around Dayton and Columbus had local FMs because of the AM licensing freeze so FM was the thing in 60s Ohio. Most AM-FM simulcasting, except for nights and weekends, had ceased long before the mandate. Now all of those little FMs have now attempted to migrate to the larger cities and don't serve their original communities today.

 

[SML]

FM grew when, in 1967, the FCC required the cessation of simulcasts with sister AMs. The FM stereo thing, introduced in '61, took nearly 3 years to reach just 100 stations. Stereo helped in the long run, but it did little in its first years.

FM really took off when car radios began to include FM as a standard item. This was in the early 1970's however. The lack of simulcasts and introduction of stereo did not jump start the quantity of listeners.

 

[AM FM listener]

FM really took off when car radios began to include FM as a standard item. This was in the early 1970's however. The lack of simulcasts and introduction of stereo did not jump start the quantity of listeners.

Yup, when all the car companies make HD radio standard equipment, that's when the extra HD channels will take off. However, the new standard car radio will likely include AM, FM, HD, satellite, internet, CD player and iPod jack so there will be even more competition across the various media.

 

[LKellerIII]

FM grew when, in 1967, the FCC required the cessation of simulcasts with sister AMs. The FM stereo thing, introduced in '61, took nearly 3 years to reach just 100 stations. Stereo helped in the long run, but it did little in its first years.

FM really took off when car radios began to include FM as a standard item. This was in the early 1970's however. The lack of simulcasts and introduction of stereo did not jump start the quantity of listeners.

Even in the early and mid 70s, most new cars came with AM only radios - the exceptions were probably luxury cars, like Cadillacs and Lincolns.

The first new car I bought was a 1977 Honda Civic, which came with AM only. My second new car was a 79 Honda Accord, which came with an AM/FM monaural radio standard. The dealer allowed you to delete the radio entirely for a credit of about $75, which I put toward an AM/FM Stereo Cassette unit, but I had to go to a electronics retailer to buy it and get it installed.

 

[TheBigA]

Keep in mind that after 1966, manufacturers could add FM to a radio for very little additional money, because the patent had lapsed. The only real issue with FM at the time was the need for an external antenna.

 

[davideduardo]

FM really took off when car radios began to include FM as a standard item. This was in the early 1970's however. The lack of simulcasts and introduction of stereo did not jump start the quantity of listeners.

The facts about car radios and in-car listening are a truly different reality.

First, car radio listening is about a third or less (more like 25% in New York City) of total listening. In the late 60's and early 70's, it was less because commute times were shorter and the Hooper and Pulse methodologies did not really favor in-car listening. In car listening could not change FM usage by itself, as non-car listening was over 70% of all listening.

Second, even then with the majority of cars being short-lived Detroit products, the average life of a car until junked was over 6 years. So it would have taken about 12 years for FM to be in every car, assuming 100% of new vehicles had FM, which they did not even in the early 80's. In the early 70's, FM was an extra cost option on all but the highest end cars... I recall paying for the AM/FM upgrade on a Mustang in 1975, in fact. It was definitely not standard!

FM began gaining on AM right out of the gate. The late 60's produced two major hapenings... progressive rock and Beautiful Music on FM. By the very early 70's, we had many FM-only CHRs as well, and then the Superstars format sprung out of WQDR and we found many top rated FMs in these formats. Around '72 - '73 Oldies stations came on in some numbers (although the first were around '67-'68).

The reason FM started growing after nearly 30 years was that the FCC forced the creation of many more options on FM and that made the usage of the band explode.

 

[LA_Guy]

HD=Joke

HD is a joke. It interferes with adjacent stations-sometimes severely. It even can interfere with stations two and three channels away. It drops out and no, the power increase (which will make my first point even worse) won't help that much.
The content on HD2 and HD3 suck-I have heard very few things that make me excited about HD. AND...I am a broadcast engineer that WANTED HD to work! Problem is, it doesn't. It's a technology that makes the masses yawn.

I read an article this weekend that said thar digital radio in the UK had only reached 24% penetration compared with analog FM there. Ibuquity would be creaming their jeans to have a quarter of that here! Fact is, HD radio is stalled at under 1% penetration, and has been for the past few years. It's well past time to put this dog to sleep, take back some of the surplus low band VHF spectrum that DTV has made obsolete for TV to engineer a REAL digital radio band that can eventually replace both AM and FM, and move on past this bastardized POS system.

 

[TheBigA]

Re: HD=Joke

HD is a joke. It interferes with adjacent stations-sometimes severely. It even can interfere with stations two and three channels away.

OK, so say you're right. That certifies that AM is dead. Then AM stations will be rushing to cram more translaters into the FM band, causing interference there. Is that better for you?

OTA radio needs help. The FCC isn't going to do for radio what it did for TV. So if radio wants to go digital, it's only place is the internet. Things aren't going to stay the same.

It's a technology that makes the masses yawn.

The technology really isn't the issue. The masses don't want to buy new radios. They don't want to buy satellite radios, they don't want to buy internet radios, and they don't want to buy AM/FM radios. So unless an HD radio comes standard with their new car, or is included in their new phone, no one's buying.

 

[RockTheGlobe]

Re: HD=Joke

HD is a joke. It interferes with adjacent stations-sometimes severely. It even can interfere with stations two and three channels away. It drops out and no, the power increase (which will make my first point even worse) won't help that much.
The content on HD2 and HD3 suck-I have heard very few things that make me excited about HD. AND...I am a broadcast engineer that WANTED HD to work! Problem is, it doesn't. It's a technology that makes the masses yawn.

I read an article this weekend that said thar digital radio in the UK had only reached 24% penetration compared with analog FM there. Ibuquity would be creaming their jeans to have a quarter of that here! Fact is, HD radio is stalled at under 1% penetration, and has been for the past few years. It's well past time to put this dog to sleep, take back some of the surplus low band VHF spectrum that DTV has made obsolete for TV to engineer a REAL digital radio band that can eventually replace both AM and FM, and move on past this bastardized POS system.

The technology makes the masses yawn because (a) it doesn't work as advertised and (b) the marketing campaign for it has been small and crappy. Conduct your own informal poll among random people about HD Radio, and I'm sure you'll find a huge level of either a lack of awareness or misunderstanding about the product. A researcher named Mark Kassof did a study where he found that a percentage of the public said they were listening to stations in HD, even though they hadn't bought HD Radios -- simply because stations were running liners saying "now broadcasting in crystal-clear HD." That moronic "stations between the stations" on-air campaign was horrible and completely failed to communicate the benefits of HD side-channels.

The other issue is that for the first time, the technology is owned and licensed by a private company -- iBiquity. You have to pay them for the rights to broadcast in HD. If the technology behind FM had been privately owned, it might have been held back the way HD is.

 

[TheBigA]

Re: HD=Joke

If the technology behind FM had been privately owned, it might have been held back the way HD is.

It was, but by 1966, the patent had run out. Once that happened, manufacturers were free to add FM to radios without paying royalties.

 

[8638]

Re: HD=Joke

HD is a joke. It interferes with adjacent stations-sometimes severely. It even can interfere with stations two and three channels away.

OK, so say you're right. That certifies that AM is dead. Then AM stations will be rushing to cram more translaters into the FM band, causing interference there. Is that better for you?

OTA radio needs help. The FCC isn't going to do for radio what it did for TV. So if radio wants to go digital, it's only place is the internet. Things aren't going to stay the same.

It's a technology that makes the masses yawn.

The technology really isn't the issue. The masses don't want to buy new radios. They don't want to buy satellite radios, they don't want to buy internet radios, and they don't want to buy AM/FM radios. So unless an HD radio comes standard with their new car, or is included in their new phone, no one's buying.

Oh, I think the technology is an issue. Let's set aside the fact that the HD signal obliterates first adjacents close to the TX. This is not a robust technology. We're all either radio geeks or professionals here, so we will wait 6-8 seconds...or more, for HD lock. That in and of itself is not so bad, but just try maintaining that lock, especially if on the move. I'm 58 miles out from the majority of the HD signals I receive; half of those are essentially LOS reception. Yet, they don't stay locked, and sometimes they simply will not lock to begin with. I am interested in the programming offered on several of the HD-2's and 3's, but cannot tolerate the constant dropouts. And, as an electronic technician, I have the tuner connected to a good outdoor FM Yagi, complete with rotor. Still have problems!

But, you are right about people not wanting to buy new radios. Analog works fine. The argument to purchase new gear is not terribly strong

 

[TheBigA]

Re: HD=Joke

But, you are right about people not wanting to buy new radios. Analog works fine. The argument to purchase new gear is not terribly strong

Well that's not exactly right either. Analog doesn't work fine. It is limited by the number of signals licensed to a particular town. That's why people are listening to radio on their phones and computers. As that sector grows, the analog system will deteriorate. What's happened is a new device has replaced the radio as the personal entertainment center. The challenge for growth in radio remains regardless of what happens to HD.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

But, you are right about people not wanting to buy new radios. Analog works fine. The argument to purchase new gear is not terribly strong

Well that's not exactly right either. Analog doesn't work fine. It is limited by the number of signals licensed to a particular town. That's why people are listening to radio on their phones and computers. As that sector grows, the analog system will deteriorate. What's happened is a new device has replaced the radio as the personal entertainment center. The challenge for growth in radio remains regardless of what happens to HD.

Yep, it's those damn cell phones again. With their internet partner in crime, they are slowly doing to radio what they quickly did to the Polaroid camera.

 

[TheBigA]

Yep, it's those damn cell phones again. With their internet partner in crime, they are slowly doing to radio what they quickly did to the Polaroid camera.

By the way, unlike a lot of radio people, I don't see the phone as an enemy. It's just a device. I have nothing at stake in the device business. I am just as happy when they listen to my station on their phone as when they listen on the old Zenith. Doesn't matter to me, as long as they listen.

Polaroid, on the other hand, should get into the phone business. For the record, I own a Polaroid digital camera. The amazing thing is the pictures develop instantly!

 

[8638]

Re: HD=Joke

But, you are right about people not wanting to buy new radios. Analog works fine. The argument to purchase new gear is not terribly strong

Well that's not exactly right either. Analog doesn't work fine. It is limited by the number of signals licensed to a particular town. That's why people are listening to radio on their phones and computers. As that sector grows, the analog system will deteriorate. What's happened is a new device has replaced the radio as the personal entertainment center. The challenge for growth in radio remains regardless of what happens to HD.

Just because there are limits on allocations does not mean that analog FM doesn't work fine! That is an entirely different argument. You are right in your assertion that people use other devices to listen to radio. That will continue, as more options are available that way.