HD Radio Live?

[tomservo]

I got a chance to sit in a new VW Passat the other day at a local dealer and fiddle with the touchscreen radio. It has HD built-in, but being in big metal showroom, I could only get the two most powerful HD stations to decode. One showed the HD radio logo glowing when decoded, but the other was a little different. It said, "HD Radio live" instead.

I couldn't find anything on iBiquity's website about this, and a search of some automotive forums came up with only questions but not answers, too. I thought it might be some sort of "live pause and playback" scheme but never found anything in the menus relating to that. Just the usual tagging for iTunes. Anyone know what it means?

Here's a photo of the display in action: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22166361/HD_radio_live.jpg

I'm really curious because this is the one station my Insignia portable will not decode. It says it has a full, strong signal, the HD icon stops flashing, but it never blends over. I'm wondering if that live feature is causing the Insignia issues. To be honest, I couldn't tell if the Passat's radio blended over or not. The station in question has a pretty good analog audio chain and their delay is never off, and it was endless commercials when I tuned in. If it did decode the digital, it was wonderfully seamless.

On another note, I got to ask the service guys about the radio and whether it had generated any complaints. They said they only had a few complaints about the HD, and only on one or two stations whose delays are always out of sync. Most of the issues were for slow software and touchscreen response complaints, not radio-related items. One tech said he liked the HD feature, that it worked reasonably well and that it was the stations, not the radio, that were the source of the problems.

It's a much different response than the BMW tech bulletin that gets trotted out all the time to prove how broken HD is.

 

[MRFLASHPORT]

a buffer maybe?

 

[tomservo]

a buffer maybe?

If so, there's nothing in the radio to access it as far as I could tell. I don't understand why the radio station would need to change anything for that type of feature, anyway.

 

[nd2023]

Maybe the station has ballgame mode on, so HD radios are instructed not to decode the HD1, but HD2 and HD3 would decode.

 

[tomservo]

Maybe the station has ballgame mode on, so HD radios are instructed not to decode the HD1, but HD2 and HD3 would decode.

Hmm… *scratches chin* That would explain why it buffers but doesn't decode on the Insignia.

Our Cumulus stations (WDLT and WBLX) run HD with no subchannels. They have some good processing on both the analog and HD and sound fantastic, which really hurts with the WDLT feed not working. It's the second best HD signal in the market but useless at the moment. When it worked (back when it was variety hits Jack FM) it was really an improvement.

 

[KB1OKL]

I'm really curious because this is the one station my Insignia portable will not decode. It says it has a full, strong signal, the HD icon stops flashing, but it never blends over. I'm wondering if that live feature is causing the Insignia issues. To be honest, I couldn't tell if the Passat's radio blended over or not. The station in question has a pretty good analog audio chain and their delay is never off, and it was endless commercials when I tuned in. If it did decode the digital, it was wonderfully seamless.

That paragraph also confirms what I've always thought about one of Strubies talking points: How wonderful HD sounds in comparison to analog. The only difference I ever heard with HD FM over analog was that the noise floor had lessened, the signal always sounded the same. If we can't tell the difference between analog and HD, what's the point?

 

[tomservo]

That paragraph also confirms what I've always thought about one of Strubies talking points: How wonderful HD sounds in comparison to analog. The only difference I ever heard with HD FM over analog was that the noise floor had lessened, the signal always sounded the same. If we can't tell the difference between analog and HD, what's the point?

There was certainly no chance of telling the difference during commercials, which are usually sonically dense and have very few features of "high quality audio" like wide stereo separation or good dynamic range.

It only takes one flipping over to the rap-tastic WBLX to see that even the best analog processing can be improved with HD. 'BLX sounds fantastic (for rap, anyway) but the HD is still a cut above. It's just that much more 'punchier', cleaner, crisper and the super quiet noise floor really stands out on the spectrally light 'music' that passes for hip hop these days.

Of course, these stations run no subchannels, so all those precious bits are devoted to just one stream.

 

[Tom Wells]

It must be considered that the addition of HD neceesarily degrades the analog to the point that it could be accepted that the
polluted analog is surpassed by a digital feed. I have long likened this to the acceptability of tainted milk.

When proper analog methods "can be" realized the result requires more care in the steps along the way, but acceptance
of digital modes for broadcast amounts a decided refusal to understand and make analog work properly,
as of digital is some kind of magic.

It's not, and only 10 lbs of analog data or 10khz minus mp/whatever compression/redundancy digital will fit in a 10 pound bag.

When the analog fails, it's graceful and inutuitive to what humans understand well as with any weak sound.
When digital fails it's just nothing.

The analog is live and the digital is delayed.

I'm sure if there were ENOUGH engineers to properly adjust these stations, there's no reason a LOT of stations could sound
a lot better.

Here I insert shameless promotion of actual AM airchecks with 150% modulation courtesy of Breakaway Broadcast Processor
over a tube part 15 AM staiton using a Van der Bijl design modulator and no iron transformers in the audio or rf sections.
See tagline below.

For me the whole thing is not about being on mike but more about showing just how good AM signals really can sound.
I grew up about 25 miles from the tower of WLS, so I heard it in super hi-fi on a good many radios.
I do my best duplicate the hugeness and feel of the big 89 when they were duking it out with Super CFL.

 

[tomservo]

I think the same could be said of analog radio in general - if only there were engineers who were capable and GMs who'd come off the money necessary for a quality sound. AMs especially seem to run "on the cheap" and if it's telephone quality, that's good enough. I have proclaimed the 60 Hz hum the official sound of Mississippi radio because I heard it on so many stations it was mind boggling, even in rated markets. Small town FM ain't much better, running the gamut from simple effective processing to really ratty, poor sounding warbly garbage.

A hit against HD is it does nothing to solve the bad engineering on the underlying station. The low bitrate Musican mp2 music run through an over-compressed digital STL then through an HD encoder is of course going to sound worse than a station with a completly uncompressed audio chain from end to end.

 

[Groove1670]

I could only get the two most powerful HD stations to decode.

Today's listener wants a full plate of stations. No delays or dropouts.

In car streaming at times is still a hit or miss.

Analog FM is still the best bet until the technology improves.

 

[tomservo]

I could only get the two most powerful HD stations to decode.

Today's listener wants a full plate of stations. No delays or dropouts.

In car streaming at times is still a hit or miss.

Analog FM is still the best bet until the technology improves.

Keep in mind this was in a big metal and glass showroom, surrounded by computers and high intensity lighting and an entire service center 'round back. I had the Insignia portable on my person and in the waiting room got basically the same reception: the same two HDs decoded, everything else was VERY staticy or mono at best. Even the class A that was just a few miles east was in-and-out of stereo on both the car radio and the Insignia.

As soon as I walked out to the car lot and away from the building, I got full quieting on all the locals and solid HD on all the local stations.

Well, except WDLT-FM from the original post. I tried a second Insignia with older software last night and it DOES decode WDLT but I'm 99% sure the Passat radio didn't, nor does my newer Insignia. I did finally get in contact with a media person at Cumulus and asked them to pass on to the engineer that it's wonky. So maybe one day later this month someone can take a look-see at it.

Tom Wells: I'm listening to your 1966 podcast now. It sounds great! It's hard to believe there was a time when AM sounded this good.

 

[tomservo]

Update: I happened to dust off my old "broken" Insignia portable, which runs an older software version than the one I keep in my car.

Lo, it decodes WDLT-FM! But there's a catch. Instead of dropping back down to analog when it loses the digital signal, it just goes silent. On the main HD channel! Seems like I encountered this issue before on another station in another market. I'm almost convinced it's a software bug in the HD encoder software and not the radios because it seems to affect all radios in some way.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

AM still sounded great in 1989 - AM stereo weekend music and stereo Tiger games from WJR was fantastic. It only took a decade for it to decay.

 

[tomservo]

AM still sounded great in 1989 - AM stereo weekend music and stereo Tiger games from WJR was fantastic. It only took a decade for it to decay.

It's off topic, but whatever happened to broadcasting sporting events in stereo, period? None of what I hear on radio today is stereo anymore. It would be a good way to make the crowd noise more interesting if nothing else. Ditto TV broadcasts. I used to listen to TV with headphones back in the MTS stereo days and never once heard a football or baseball game with stereo sound.