HD Radio opponents-Not ignorant, just unbiased.

[calstymes]

I do not consider amplitude modulated radio stations, either commercial or amateur, "obsolete". And I too have an Extra Class amateur radio license. I know all about CW being "antiquated".

Actually, I have no desire to get the BA radio repaired. It was "a gift". Sort of. It was just one of those things that I really didn't want but which somebody (who knows a lot better than I do) thought that I "needed".

And what part of the Ibiquity licensing agreement is it with which you disagree? It's really ok if you don't want to answer that.

Have a great IBOC-listening weekend!

 

[JasonW]

I do not consider amplitude modulated radio stations, either commercial or amateur, "obsolete". And I too have an Extra Class amateur radio license. I know all about CW being "antiquated".

Actually, I have no desire to get the BA radio repaired. It was "a gift". Sort of. It was just one of those things that I really didn't want but which somebody (who knows a lot better than I do) thought that I "needed".

And what part of the Ibiquity licensing agreement is it with which you disagree? It's really ok if you don't want to answer that.

Have a great IBOC-listening weekend!

Being one who listens exclusively to AM news/talk radio, I hear mostly young to middle-aged callers (20s to 40s) on the air, and I'm 39 myself. I know that the talk hosts have call screeners, but the sub-retirement age callers (and therefore listeners) are there nonetheless. The top-rated programs (Glenn Beck, Tom Leykis, Don & Mike, Gary Burbank, Michael Savage, etc.) are specifically aimed at younger people, and 99.99% of these people (including me) are happily listening to these programs on their "obsolete" non-IBOC, analog amplitude modulated radios. -- Jason

 

[autopaint-1]

But you are 39 not 18 or 25. I am the father of two young ladies in the ideal advertiser demographic, 19 and 21 and neither one listens to AM radio. One goes to school in Massachussettes and one in Florida so it's not just a NY thing. I'd be interested in how many of those Lykiss stations are Am and how many are FM. I never said that young people don't listen to talk radio, they just don't listen to most of the major talk programs which are widely heard on AM stations. Most under 30 or 40 types listen to FM only. a small percentage listen to AM and no one uner the age of 45 listens to Am for music. The numbers of AM listeners are shrinking which is why owners have to do something less they lose their entire audience to better sounding alternatives.

 

[autopaint-1]

"I do not consider amplitude modulated radio stations, either commercial or amateur, "obsolete". And I too have an Extra Class amateur radio license. I know all about CW being "antiquated"."


Then you are in a distinct minority. Take a look at the billing numbers of AM versus FM stations. AM billing is way down. In NYC a station such as WABC gets good numbers within the top 10 but billing was nowhere near the top and way outside of the top 10. the reason is that the audience for that station is the older 50 plus group and they are not an "advertiser friendly" group.

"Actually, I have no desire to get the BA radio repaired. It was "a gift". Sort of. It was just one of those things that I really didn't want but which somebody (who knows a lot better than I do) thought that I "needed"."

Whatever makes you happy. It was only a suggestion and considering that the thing is under warrrenty you'd think it would be worth looking into if for nothing less then reselling it on E-bay. think about it, with the money you make you could go out and purchase one of those alternative digital radio recievers for one of those better systems people in here always talk about.


And what part of the Ibiquity licensing agreement is it with which you disagree? It's really ok if you don't want to answer that.

Have a great IBOC-listening weekend!

 

[autopaint-1]

"And what part of the Ibiquity licensing agreement is it with which you disagree? It's really ok if you don't want to answer that"



Nearly forgot to answer you. I don't like the fact that a unit you purchase requires an additional license fee and also that if you selll your station the new owner has to pay up. That to me is unethical. Any other questions?

 

[JasonW]

But you are 39 not 18 or 25. I am the father of two young ladies in the ideal advertiser demographic, 19 and 21 and neither one listens to AM radio. One goes to school in Massachussettes and one in Florida so it's not just a NY thing. I'd be interested in how many of those Lykiss stations are Am and how many are FM. I never said that young people don't listen to talk radio, they just don't listen to most of the major talk programs which are widely heard on AM stations. Most under 30 or 40 types listen to FM only. a small percentage listen to AM and no one uner the age of 45 listens to Am for music. The numbers of AM listeners are shrinking which is why owners have to do something less they lose their entire audience to better sounding alternatives.

Tom Leykis' affiliate stations are about half AM and half FM. FM talk is definitely a growing trend; in South Florida, Neil Rogers pioneered FM talk on Zeta 4 (WZTA) back in the 1980s. But a compelling talent can draw younger listeners to AM, as Phil Hendrie did. -- Jason

 

[Chuck]

Most under 30 or 40 types listen to FM only. a small percentage listen to AM and no one uner the age of 45 listens to Am for music. The numbers of AM listeners are shrinking which is why owners have to do something less they lose their entire audience to better sounding alternatives.

That's probably true, but some of it has to do with what is actually on AM radio. Not too many young people are big fans of Rush or Dr. Laura. Even though they are very successful programs, they are aimed at an older and more conservative demographic.

An FM Talker in Dallas advertises that "We know you're demented and we're glad you are." (Or words to that effect). The station is definitely aimed at a younger male demo. Their programming is fairly sexually explicit, and has lots of locker room style humor. That doesn't appeal to me, but I'll bet it gets lots of listeners in the coveted 18-30 age group. Raging hormones can do that.

I think they'd do about the same on either AM or FM, assuming the stations had similar coverage areas. Not too many 18-30 year olds are going to tune in to AM so they can hear brokered Vietnamese or Indian programming, unless it happens to be their primary language. AM's demise does have something to do with audio quality, but primarily it has to do with programming.

 

[autopaint-1]

"That's probably true, but some of it has to do with what is actually on AM radio. Not too many young people are big fans of Rush or Dr. Laura. Even though they are very successful programs, they are aimed at an older and more conservative demographic."


Good point and obviously true. that said why do you think that there are no current top 40 stations in any medium or major market? I can't speak for every station but I think you understand my point. The reason is that they can not survive against FM stereo competition. Oldies as format has moved to AM for the most part but that is because people of my age (50 years old) will tolerate AM audio because that's what we grew up with until the FM heavy penetration of the early 70's. Shortly after FM became available to hear current music, the AM's died out. In NYC only WABC survived into the early 80's. WMCA, WWDJ were gone in the late 60's early 70's. The writing was on the wall for music on AM. The fact that you had to program AM & FM stations seperately in the late 60's also helped FM become viable competition for AM radio. In the 1980's if memory serves 1480 in NYC became a metal radio station (or something similar) and it died quickly without a wimper. Kids do not listen to AM radio and they have no history of doing so.

 

[Chuck]

"That's probably true, but some of it has to do with what is actually on AM radio. Not too many young people are big fans of Rush or Dr. Laura. Even though they are very successful programs, they are aimed at an older and more conservative demographic."


Good point and obviously true. that said why do you think that there are no current top 40 stations in any medium or major market? I can't speak for every station but I think you understand my point.

I understand your point, and can't/won't argue against it. But part of this is self-inflicted. It's the same mind set that thinks it is OK for the PD to adjust the Optimod. If you are convinced that AM sucks, then AM sucks. There is no turning back.

 

[smashedcd]

Most under 30 or 40 types listen to FM only. a small percentage listen to AM and no one uner the age of 45 listens to Am for music. The numbers of AM listeners are shrinking which is why owners have to do something less they lose their entire audience to better sounding alternatives.

I listen to AM . i also listen to AM for music. ever hear of a station called 650 wsm?? and do a little research. in most top 10 markets the numer one station in town is..yep on AM!! just because some 25 year old modern rock fan doesnt like it doesnt mean no one your age does. i work with a guy that is 23. he only listens to AM! he says there is nothing on fm and the variety is better on AM.

 

[calstymes]

Quotes from Dave on July 7, 2006:

"I do not consider amplitude modulated radio stations, either commercial or amateur, "obsolete". And I too have an Extra Class amateur radio license. I know all about CW being "antiquated"."

Then you are in a distinct minority.

I may be in a distinct minority but I do not consider them antiquated because they are still FUN.

Take a look at the billing numbers of AM versus FM stations. AM billing is way down. In NYC a station such as WABC gets good numbers within the top 10 but billing was nowhere near the top and way outside of the top 10.

I had no idea that business was that bad! Perhaps the billing numbers that were reported for the "larger" NYC 50 KW AM radio stations in 2005 were incorrect.

The reason is that the audience for that station is the older 50 plus group and they are not an "advertiser friendly" group.

Goodness! Do you really believe that yourself or are you simply parroting what Madison Avenue says? If you really do believe this yourself then I am convinced that there really IS no hope for the future of broadcasting. Yes I know that Madison Avenue is putting the over-50 crowd "out to pasture" but remember that someday you will turn 50 too and in fact, I will hazard a guess that you are not terribly far away from that milestone either. Perhaps you thought that JACK was a great idea as well because it will save WCBS-FM from the over-50 crowd who we already know doesn't spend any money? Yup, that surely worked.

"Actually, I have no desire to get the BA radio repaired. It was "a gift". Sort of. It was just one of those things that I really didn't want but which somebody (who knows a lot better than I do) thought that I "needed"."

Whatever makes you happy. It was only a suggestion and considering that the thing is under warrranty you'd think it would be worth looking into if for nothing less then reselling it on E-bay. Think about it, with the money you make you could go out and purchase one of those alternative digital radio recievers for one of those better systems people in here always talk about.

I really have no genuine interest in either. As far as I'm concerned, they are both conspiracies to help the broadcasting industry and consumers spend some money so that some speculative investors can earn some money. Unfortunately, neither of them will help solve the real problem which is simply that the radio broadcasting industry as a whole has forgotten how to utilize talented PEOPLE to provide QUALITY and INTERESTING programming to LISTENERS. No amount of digital processing is going substitute for improving the product itself.

"And what part of the Ibiquity licensing agreement is it with which you disagree? It's really ok if you don't want to answer that."

Nearly forgot to answer you.

Actually, you did forget to answer me, which is why you posted it in a followup.

I don't like the fact that a unit you purchase requires an additional license fee and also that if you sell your station the new owner has to pay up. That to me is unethical.

Unethical?? Ibiquity? Naw, can't be! That is just too radical for me to take!

Any other questions?

No, not at this time, but thank you for asking and no doubt there will be others in the future. Have a great IBOC-listening week!

Cal

 

[JasonW]

The widespread notion in radio and television that people over 50 aren't worth marketing to has always puzzled me. They have more disposable income than younger people, and they do spend it (on restaurants, travel, appliances, home entertainment, etc.), which are all fertile and profitable territory for radio advertising.

I think there is an image in the minds of many broadcasters that the over-50 folks are stingy or poor shut-ins who watch Lawrence Welk re-runs and only buy Geritol. The Baby Boomers, who are now entering their 60s, certainly shatter that image. Radio and TV programming and sales people who ignore this demographic group are very short-sighted. -- Jason

 

[JasonW]

Chuck wrote:

<I understand your point, and can't/won't argue against it. But part of this is self-inflicted. It's the same mind set that thinks it is OK for the PD to adjust the Optimod. If you are convinced that AM sucks, then AM sucks. There is no turning back.>

It *is* sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy: "Everybody -knows- that AM sounds lousy, so why even -try- adjusting the audio?"

I wonder, though, if this may in some cases be due to the PDs or GMs listening to their stations on mediocre-to-lousy receivers? A well-adjusted AM signal sounds absolutely sweet (as good as FM) on a good crystal radio, and a Grundig, Sangean or GE Super Radio will give the same excellent results. If PDs and GMs actually heard how good their AM stations *can* sound, I think it would change their defeatist attitude. -- Jason

 

[autopaint-1]

"A well-adjusted AM signal sounds absolutely sweet (as good as FM) on a good crystal radio, and a Grundig, Sangean or GE Super Radio will give the same excellent results. If PDs and GMs actually heard how good their AM stations *can* sound, I think it would change their defeatist attitude. -- Jason"

True if there were no atmospheric noise ala thunder or crowded bands, like those in the mnajor markets or automobiles which are mobile noise producers or certain types of lights, like neon or televisions which interfere or ...shall I go on? It's 2006 and as wonderful as you say a wide band amplitude modulated signal is, it's still 99% mono on the AM band (Note; find out which crystal set will decode any of the methods for producing an AM stereo signal) Oh and computers and on and on. It's all well and good but it's unrealistic and not a meaningful argument. I remember when i worked for a 1 KW daytimer in a NYC suburb and it sounded great of the sampling loops but geta few miles away and forget wide band. In this part of the country there are stations every 20 or 30 Khz. Not a problem with IBOC that I've seen but you don't get much high fidelity when you don't get response over 10 or even 12 K (and 12 is really stretching it for most AM facilities).

 

[Chuck]

Now that you mention it, I own a non-digital version of the BA Receptor. It actually sounds really good on AM, especially if there is a decent signal to begin with. So do several other radios I own. But Autopaiint is right; interference is a really huge problem for AM. I've noticed that my own car generates tons of it. The radio sounds much better with the engine turned off. LED stoplights nearly wipe out weak stations. Computers, fluorescent lights, dimmers and a long list of noise generators all add to the difficulties.

But not all of the problem with AM is due to excessive interference. I know of several area AM's that don't run at anywhere near their authorized power. Frequently their antenna arrays and ground systems are in such poor repair that I'm amazed the transmitter hasn't given up the ghost a long time ago. And who knows when they last changed the tubes? The mind set seems to be that AM sounds crappy, so why bother to fix it.

Even if IBOC actually works on AM, those problems will have to be worked out. That will be expensive. At least, around here, I haven't seen any big rush to fix these obvious problems.

 

[autopaint-1]

"I know of several area AM's that don't run at anywhere near their authorized power. Frequently their antenna arrays and ground systems are in such poor repair that I'm amazed the transmitter hasn't given up the ghost a long time ago. And who knows when they last changed the tubes? The mind set seems to be that AM sounds crappy, so why bother to fix it."

Oh I knoiw exactly what you're talking about Chuck. I worked for a 1 K daytimer years ago and the main transmitter was a BC 1G (BC 1E backup) and they would replace the tubes once every few years. For the first few days or weeks the station would sound great but over time as the tubes wore down a bit the sound while not bad would lose it's loudness and nice highs. Both transmitters ran 833's in both the modulators and the RF final section. They used 807's a drivers. As a daytimer the fact that the transmitter tubes were allowed to shut down each evening caused the tubes to have a somewhat shorter life, with all the heating up and cooling down of the fillaments every day. Today of course everything is solid state and for those stations still running tube trasnmitters they won't be able to do IBOC anyway. Then there are some questionable operations with short spaced towers where they have sideband issues.

"Even if IBOC actually works on AM, those problems will have to be worked out. That will be expensive. At least, around here, I haven't seen any big rush to fix these obvious problems."

Gone are the days of doing a proof of performance. the FCC seems to have basically given up.

 

[JasonW]

"A well-adjusted AM signal sounds absolutely sweet (as good as FM) on a good crystal radio, and a Grundig, Sangean or GE Super Radio will give the same excellent results. If PDs and GMs actually heard how good their AM stations *can* sound, I think it would change their defeatist attitude. -- Jason"

True if there were no atmospheric noise ala thunder or crowded bands, like those in the mnajor markets or automobiles which are mobile noise producers or certain types of lights, like neon or televisions which interfere or ...shall I go on? It's 2006 and as wonderful as you say a wide band amplitude modulated signal is, it's still 99% mono on the AM band (Note; find out which crystal set will decode any of the methods for producing an AM stereo signal) Oh and computers and on and on. It's all well and good but it's unrealistic and not a meaningful argument. I remember when i worked for a 1 KW daytimer in a NYC suburb and it sounded great of the sampling loops but geta few miles away and forget wide band. In this part of the country there are stations every 20 or 30 Khz. Not a problem with IBOC that I've seen but you don't get much high fidelity when you don't get response over 10 or even 12 K (and 12 is really stretching it for most AM facilities).

The New York City radio market is not the world. I've lived in or visited Miami, Orlando, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Los Angeles, Salt Lake City, and Anchorage, and I've never had any problems getting good analog AM reception on either car radios or table radios in any of those places.

-- Jason

 

[autopaint-1]

"The New York City radio market is not the world. I've lived in or visited Miami, Orlando, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Los Angeles, Salt Lake City, and Anchorage, and I've never had any problems getting good analog AM reception on either car radios or table radios in any of those places."

No NY is not the world BUT it is the number 1 market in the country. By a wide margin, there are more available listeners in NYC than in any other market. Sure you can listen to AM radio anywhere in NY, but tell me which band would you rather hear music on, AM with it's restrictive bandwidth and succepatbility to interference and with it's higher noise floor or FM with it's much higher fidelity, stereo sound and lack of interference? Be honest now... So when the audience for AM radio grows older and dies off (which is happening) who are we going to replace them with? Think all those younger people who don't even realize that their radio has an AM band are going to flock to AM to fill the void, or should those facilities just go under for lack of an audience? Sure someone can come on and talk about a WFAN or a WBZ which are very popular stations, but for every one of those there are dozens of AM facilities seeing lower profits every year or in
dire financial condition. Here in my major market city (I'll refrain from mentioning NYC because that sets some people off as though my mentioning of it indictates that NY is the only place on earth. I'm guessing that these same people wouldn't be happy with my talk about Chugwater Wyoming, maybe because I've never been to Chugwater and only comment about areas I am familiar with).
we have many AM facilities which have become outles for infomercials (AKA; Arthur Lieu). Those facilities serve relatively few people but make money only because they sell blocks of time to people wishing to sell their wares. Sadly, it's the only way they can afford to stay on the air. Counting the pay for play religious outlets on AM, here in NY there are approximately eleven AM facilities which are full time play for pay block time stations. On FM there are maybe 2 and they aren't totally play for pay operations. We have two 50 K stations which do nothing more than retransmit ESPN and Radio Disney. WEPN got a .6 in the last book and WQEW got a , got a ... Zero, 12 plus. Sorry this is so NYC oriented but I LIVE HERE!! In a major city like NY the AM broadcast band is dying. Sure there are profitable outlets but the vast majority aren't making all that much money doing anything but selling blocks of time of subleting their outlets entirely to large corperatioins who's motivations are more in getting their product on a NY outlet than actually garnering an audience. I do have a suggestion for those areas who feel that they want to remain as an analogue broadcaster. Don't go digital. If a digital station interferes with your outlet within your protected contour, file with the FCC. If you are a station which wants to run one of the other digital formats, go to the commision and apply for a license to allow your digital system to develope. If it's all that much better, find a manufacturer to produce your radios and go from there. I don't believe at this time that the FCC has prevented Mr Kahn from developing his system. Get some stations to operate in using the Kahn system or whatever alternative digital system you desire and as long as your system meets FCC specs (and like it or not IBOC does meet those specs at least for AM daytime operation and for FM) and go for it. Nothing is preventing anyone from proving that they have the best system. Don't like IBOC, Then fight it with you better system. However, let's see some radios in stores. So far the only radio us consumers can purchase are IBOC radios. All I've seen from other digital developers are words.
By the way, I've heard from a friend, very good words about the JVC HD 1 radio.

Oh I left out the DXer. I'm a DXer too but let's face it, broadcasting is a business and not a hobby. To those who earn their living from these facilities, DXing just isn't as important as long term survival.

 

[Chuck]

Today of course everything is solid state and for those stations still running tube trasnmitters they won't be able to do IBOC anyway. Then there are some questionable operations with short spaced towers where they have sideband issues.
<snip>
Gone are the days of doing a proof of performance. the FCC seems to have basically given up.

If I owned an AM station, I'd certainly want to have a solid state transmitter, if for no other reason than the electric utility cost savings. Actually, I'd probably do it because I'm of the opinion that if you put out a high quality product, both technically and programming wise, you will get listeners. That formula works in almost any business, not just radio. People generally do recognize quality.

For some reason, I think that I'm in the minority on that, at least as far as radio goes. In smaller markets, my observation is that most AM stations, even relatively successful ones, are still using tube type transmitters. In my area Collins and RCA seem to be the most popular makes. Obviously, none of those have been made in years.

This leads me to believe that either these AM broadcasters are waiting to do a total rebuild of their facility until IBOC for AM is fully developed, or they are just too "thrifty" to spend money on silly things like equipment. I suspect that most lean toward the "thrifty" side. That's the bigger problem with AM, which far outweighs just about anything else. It’s fine to be financially responsible, but out and out cheapness usually shows up in your end product, and the public figures that out very quickly.

Maybe all of this will result in some real bargains in nearly defunct AM stations. That could lead to something akin to “urban redevelopment” for the AM part of the broadcast spectrum. Done by the right people, and done for the right reasons, that could be a positive. At least, I hope so.

 

[JasonW]

I know I'm in a minority on this one, but I have never cared for the sound of FM. I can't listen to it for long periods because its dry, over-crisp, sterile sound is fatiguing to my ears. I can (and do) listen to AM for hours. If AM HD sounds like FM, that is not an "improvement" that I'd welcome.

Radio is like professional sports in that there are only so many talented players to go around. Whenever the NFL or NBA have an expansion, they dilute the talent pool. Fortunately for radio, syndication makes it possible for the talented personalities to broadcast in more than one market at once.

Still, from your description it sounds more like New York City has too many AM stations. Even in the realm of syndicated talk hosts, there are only so many really good rating-grabbing ones and a lot of also-rans. Miami and Ft. Lauderdale (which also have many brokered AM stations) is in the same situation. I remember when there were four news/talk AM stations in the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale area. Through mergers and attrition, the four were reduced to two for a while, and now there are four again.

During the intervening time, talk did not migrate from AM to FM except for Neil Rogers' brief time on Zeta-4 FM. (Neil is rather "Howard Stern-ish," and the station was forever dealing with language-related complaints to the FCC, which put off the management.) HD AM, AMAX, CAM-D, or C-QUAM AM Stereo wouldn't have made a bit of difference in this programming cycle.

-- Jason