HD Radio opponents-Not ignorant, just unbiased.

[vsa]

DAVID WROTE: "HD did not do anything to discourage listening. 690 did not show in LA because the programming sucks...the 690 signal, withour without inteference, is just not good enough... it is 100% programming and not signal."

What if 690 AM's programming didn't, as you say, "suck"? The signal is now completely unlistenable across the L-A Metro all day long. Before KSPN 710's HD inteference, 690 had bigger 12+ numbers than your own KTNQ. Now you have one less competitor no matter what 690 decides to do. I now understand why you are such a big iBiquity booster!

DAVID WROTE: "1090 has never been viable in LA...and the bulk of listeners were in SD and OC, not LA County."

1090's signal starts to fade in northern Los Angeles County. So thanks to HD interference from KNX 1070 and KDIS 1110, they lose the most populous part of Los Angeles County and all of Orange County in the 2-county L-A Metro.

DAVID WROTE: "KMXE is a very marginal signal."

So you're saying this 50,000 watter at 830 AM on the dial is a marginal signal for HD purposes? That rules out more than 90 percent of the AM stations in America. If I were iBiquity, I'd try to put a lid on that piece of information, but WHOOPS, you just let it out here.

DAVID WROTE: "Arbitron sez: AM Drive in car is 37% of AQH listening, mid-days is 26% and PM Drive is 42%. 6 to Midnight, it is 32% in Spring, and has been around 30% for several years. I believe that what you are quoting, inaccruately, is in the car cume, not AQH actual listening... but it could be anything. I got my data from Arbitron... in fact, I just ran 5 Am to 9 AM, a custom daypart, and in car is 41% in that daypart. All is 12+ Spring 2006."

The Southern California Broadcasters Association quotes the Winter 2006 Los Angeles Arbitron showing an 80.9& cume for in-car listening. They quote the Fall 2005 Arbitron AQH in-car share of listening M-S 6am-Midnight as being 33.7 percent. The daytime AQH numbers are of course much higher than the inaccurate "under 30 percent" figure you repeatedly stated earlier. I quote the SCBA because not everyone reading this has easy access to the book.

From the SCBA: http://rope.zscb.fimc.net/pdfs/la market media kit 2006.pdf

DAVID WROTE: "We have, in our company, about 60 BA radios. They are all lacking in sensitivity. In other words, not a good radio to judge HD on."

And this is what you're using to sell listeners on HD Radio? What a let-down after you buy one and take it home! Do you know how long it has taken to get iBiquity supporters to finally admit that the BA Receptor does a poor job of "recepting"? So public radio's recent decision to conduct a lengthy study on why HD Radio propagates so poorly is a waste of time?

DAVID WROTE: "There is no use talking about KAhn and his system...As to Leonard himself, he basically killed the opportunity to keep AM a viable music medium. Of course there is resentment. Most of us in AM management at the time still remember and regret what happened."

It is "personal" isn't it. Thank you for admitting so.

DAVID WROTE: "The system has already been adopted, 1000 stations are on the air, and about 2000 more are signed or committed by company policy. HD is adopted in Brazil, is being tested on air in Mexico City (on 690 where there are adjacents on 710 and 660 in the same market) and going on in Philippines, etc."

So it's "everybody jumping over-the cliff" together. It will be sad to hear the interference that will come from 75,000 watt AM 690 in Baja California coming back to bite KSPN 710 in Orange County and along the coast. When Baja's 50,000 watt 1090 fires up HD, KNX 1070 may as well shut down their San Diego news bureau, and maybe the Orange County bureau as well, in anticipation of AM 1090 going HD in retalliation.

What kind of a mess are we creating?

 

[davideduardo]

DAVID WROTE: "HD did not do anything to discourage listening. 690 did not show in LA because the programming sucks...the 690 signal, withour without inteference, is just not good enough... it is 100% programming and not signal."

What if 690 AM's programming didn't, as you say, "suck"? The signal is now completely unlistenable across the L-A Metro all day long. Before KSPN 710's HD inteference, 690 had bigger 12+ numbers than your own KTNQ. Now you have one less competitor no matter what 690 decides to do. I now understand why you are such a big iBiquity booster!

DAVID WROTE: "1090 has never been viable in LA...and the bulk of listeners were in SD and OC, not LA County."

1090's signal starts to fade in northern Los Angeles County. So thanks to HD interference from KNX 1070 and KDIS 1110, they lose the most populous part of Los Angeles County and all of Orange County in the 2-county L-A Metro.

DAVID WROTE: "KMXE is a very marginal signal."

So you're saying this 50,000 watter at 830 AM on the dial is a marginal signal for HD purposes? That rules out more than 90 percent of the AM stations in America. If I were iBiquity, I'd try to put a lid on that piece of information, but WHOOPS, you just let it out here.

DAVID WROTE: "Arbitron sez: AM Drive in car is 37% of AQH listening, mid-days is 26% and PM Drive is 42%. 6 to Midnight, it is 32% in Spring, and has been around 30% for several years. I believe that what you are quoting, inaccruately, is in the car cume, not AQH actual listening... but it could be anything. I got my data from Arbitron... in fact, I just ran 5 Am to 9 AM, a custom daypart, and in car is 41% in that daypart. All is 12+ Spring 2006."

The Southern California Broadcasters Association quotes the Winter 2006 Los Angeles Arbitron showing an 80.9& cume for in-car listening. They quote the Fall 2005 Arbitron AQH in-car share of listening M-S 6am-Midnight as being 33.7 percent. The daytime AQH numbers are of course much higher than the inaccurate "under 30 percent" figure you repeatedly stated earlier. I quote the SCBA because not everyone reading this has easy access to the book.

From the SCBA: http://rope.zscb.fimc.net/pdfs/la market media kit 2006.pdf

DAVID WROTE: "We have, in our company, about 60 BA radios. They are all lacking in sensitivity. In other words, not a good radio to judge HD on."

And this is what you're using to sell listeners on HD Radio? What a let-down after you buy one and take it home! Do you know how long it has taken to get iBiquity supporters to finally admit that the BA Receptor does a poor job of "recepting"? So public radio's recent decision to conduct a lengthy study on why HD Radio propagates so poorly is a waste of time?

DAVID WROTE: "There is no use talking about KAhn and his system...As to Leonard himself, he basically killed the opportunity to keep AM a viable music medium. Of course there is resentment. Most of us in AM management at the time still remember and regret what happened."

It is "personal" isn't it. Thank you for admitting so.

DAVID WROTE: "The system has already been adopted, 1000 stations are on the air, and about 2000 more are signed or committed by company policy. HD is adopted in Brazil, is being tested on air in Mexico City (on 690 where there are adjacents on 710 and 660 in the same market) and going on in Philippines, etc."

So it's "everybody jumping over-the cliff" together. It will be sad to hear the interference that will come from 75,000 watt AM 690 in Baja California coming back to bite KSPN 710 in Orange County and along the coast. When Baja's 50,000 watt 1090 fires up HD, KNX 1070 may as well shut down their San Diego news bureau, and maybe the Orange County bureau as well, in anticipation of AM 1090 going HD in retalliation.

What kind of a mess we are creating?

690 is one comeptitor more for KTNQ, not less. It was English standards prior to February's change to "W Radio" and Spanish. The fact that it got no numbers in San Diego in any month since the change indicates the programming is inappropriate for US Hispanics. In other words, your comparison is backwards. It does not matter what share they got in English... my point is that they are not working because of programming, not signal.

1090, even back in the lower ambient noise era of the late 70's, hardly got any numbers in LA county. I went back 8 years and in Spring, 1998, XEPRS has a 0.1 share in LA, with 100% of this in Orange County... none in LA County. Today, nearly all LA AM diaries come from work or home ZIPS with about a 15 mv/m signal or better. XEPRS onlly 15's a small pice of very coastal OC and the Long Beach area, so it is not listenable, with or without HD on the second adjacent, in most of the market. As I have mentioned, people do not listen to weak signals.

KMXE is highly directional, form a site in the Inland Empire, to the other side of a faultline. It misses northern LA County, from downtown up, in days, and most of the market at night when they go so directional that they can't cover much of anything. 50 kw is not a guarantee of coverage. It is about pattern, location, and conductivity. The site is on some of the worst ground conductivity land in SoCal. It has tried multiple formats, and never gotten ratings or made money, going back to the early 90's.

On the SCBA, you obviously do not know the difference between cume and share. Cume means you listened once for 5 minutes in the whole week. Share is actual listening. In Spring, in Morning Drive, the share of listening by location from Arbitron is 37 in car, 39 at home and 23 at work. For the whole day, it is 32 in car, 41 at home and 24 at work. The in-car over thelast 4 books has averaged 30. So, given the margin of error, 30% of listening in Morning Drive is in Car. The rest is not.

Cume, as you cite, means that the car was a listening location. Share means that of all listening in the daypart, 30% was in the car. The rest was not in the car. It is hard to discuss this if you do not know the difference between cume and share.

Other receivers that are not the bad production models of the BA have very decent antennas and outperform the BA. Simple as that. And the new tech spec 2.0 receivers are much better, per reports.

The Kahn thing is general. I know only one person who "likes" Kahn. Everyone else I know in the industry finds him to be an obstructionist who has hurt radio. He may go down as the man who killed AM, in fact.

XEPRS and XETRA will probably not be HD for a long time. Mexico is just testing the HD system now. However, in Mexico City, we have a 10 kw / 5 kw on 660, a 100 kw on 690 and a 10 kw / 1 kw on 710. 690 is running HD. Neither 660 nor 710, which are government owned, has reported interference.

In any case, 1090 does not have enough signal for the HD signal to do much to KNX in the LA MSA.

 

[SayNoToIBOC]

A blog and/or comments do not carry the same weight, as articles written by professionals with impeccible credentials, and you know that - caught you, in another deceptive maneuver ! You spread this same disinformation on rec.radio.shortwave - ask anyone there.

Let's all take a trip over to rec.radio.shortwave to the, "IBOC... a bit of engineering sleight of hand that David Eduardo isn't telling us:", thread and see how Brenda Ann caught you in another lie !

 

[vsa]

DAVID WROTE: "690 is one comeptitor more for KTNQ, not less...they are not working because of programming, not signal."

You have it backwards. 690 went Spanish just before KSPN 710 turned on HD. Now they can NEVER be a competitor to you or anyone else in the L-A Metro - no matter how bad or good their programming is. It would make no difference. Their signal across Los Angeles and Orange County is being jammed by HD Radio! It's a signal that just last year pulled a consistent 1 share. That did not come from DXers.

DAVID WROTE: "1090, even back in the lower ambient noise era of the late 70's, hardly got any numbers in LA county...with about a 15 mv/m signal or better. XEPRS onlly 15's a small pice of very coastal OC and the Long Beach area, so it is not listenable.."

So not even 15 mv/m is listenable or worthy of protection? Is everyone in the radio business taking note of this? Unbelievable!

BTW, as a teenager living not too far from downtown Los Angeles at the time, I first listened to Wolfman Jack on XEPRS 1090 with a cheap transistor radio. Don't give me that weak signal crap! The FCC should hear the gross HD interference in Los Angeles first hand.  

DAVID WROTE: "KMXE is highly directional, form a site in the Inland Empire, to the other side of a faultline."

50,000 watt KMXE 830 is non-directional days from barely outside the Orange County line and runs 20,000 watts at night towards Los Angeles and Orange County with 3 towers. Hardly highly directional - and not in the wrong direction. This qualifies as not viable for HD Radio?

DAVID WROTE: "On the SCBA, you obviously do not know the difference between cume and share...in Morning Drive, the share of listening by location from Arbitron is 37 in car...given the margin of error, 30% of listening in Morning Drive is in Car."

So which is it? 30? 37? I know the difference between cume and share. Please read the SCBA's file at the link I provided earlier. Their numbers speak for themselves and it's something everyone here can easily access. Your original numbers of "under 30 percent" were clearly low.

DAVID WROTE: "I know only one person who "likes" Kahn. Everyone else I know in the industry finds him to be an obstructionist who has hurt radio. He may go down as the man who killed AM, in fact."

I'm sure there will be a few people who will be looking for some kind of a scapegoat after HD Radio accelerates the death of the AM band.

DAVID WROTE: "XEPRS and XETRA will probably not be HD for a long time...In any case, 1090 does not have enough signal for the HD signal to do much to KNX in the LA MSA."

You didn't address KNX's future loss of San Diego market listening and their news bureau there - the same for southern and coastal Orange County.

We do live in a world over-populated by short-term thinkers, don't we?

 

[davideduardo]

DAVID WROTE: "690 is one comeptitor more for KTNQ, not less...they are not working because of programming, not signal."

You have it backwards. 690 went Spanish just before KSPN 710 turned on HD. Now they can NEVER be a competitor to you or anyone else in the L-A Metro - no matter how bad or good their programming is. It would make no difference. Their signal across Los Angeles and Orange County is being jammed by HD Radio! It's a signal that just last year pulled a consistent 1 share. That did not come from DXers.

DAVID WROTE: "1090, even back in the lower ambient noise era of the late 70's, hardly got any numbers in LA county...with about a 15 mv/m signal or better. XEPRS onlly 15's a small pice of very coastal OC and the Long Beach area, so it is not listenable.."

So not even 15 mv/m is listenable or worthy of protection? Is everyone in the radio business taking note of this? Unbelievable!

BTW, as a teenager living not too far from downtown Los Angeles at the time, I first listened to Wolfman Jack on XEPRS 1090 with a cheap transistor radio. Don't give me that weak signal crap! The FCC should hear the gross HD interference in Los Angeles first hand.

DAVID WROTE: "KMXE is highly directional, form a site in the Inland Empire, to the other side of a faultline."

50,000 watt KMXE 830 is non-directional days from barely outside the Orange County line and runs 20,000 watts at night towards Los Angeles and Orange County with 3 towers. Hardly highly directional - and not in the wrong direction. This qualifies as not viable for HD Radio?

DAVID WROTE: "On the SCBA, you obviously do not know the difference between cume and share...in Morning Drive, the share of listening by location from Arbitron is 37 in car...given the margin of error, 30% of listening in Morning Drive is in Car."

So which is it? 30? 37? I know the difference between cume and share. Please read the SCBA's file at the link I provided earlier. Their numbers speak for themselves and it's something everyone here can easily access. Your original numbers of "under 30 percent" were clearly low.

DAVID WROTE: "I know only one person who "likes" Kahn. Everyone else I know in the industry finds him to be an obstructionist who has hurt radio. He may go down as the man who killed AM, in fact."

I'm sure there will be a few people who will be looking for some kind of a scapegoat after HD Radio accelerates the death of the AM band.

DAVID WROTE: "XEPRS and XETRA will probably not be HD for a long time...In any case, 1090 does not have enough signal for the HD signal to do much to KNX in the LA MSA."

You didn't address KNX's future loss of San Diego market listening and their news bureau there - the same for southern and coastal Orange County.

We do live in a world over-populated by short-term thinkers, don't we?

Let's try again...

XETRA in Spanish is did not get any ratings in San Diego since the switch. The HDHA areas in SD are mostly in the area south and east of downtown, where XETRA is a barn burner. If it did now get ratings in San Diego, even in June, well into the format, why would it get them in LA where there are more Spanish talk stations to begin with?

The 37 share is AM drive... the 32 share is all week, all dayarts. The SCBA is circulation, not share of listening. We are members of SCBA. Their point is that a large percentage of people listen to raido in the car. Mine is that most of morning listening and most of total week listening is NOT in the car. On average, the total week share of all listening which is in the car is 30 based on the last 4 Arbitron surveys.

I have no idea how old you are, but if you were a teen when the Wolfman was on XERB (now XEPRS) you are now about 55 or so. In those 30 odd years, the ambient noise level in LA and in all American cities, has increaded horribly and dramtically. Stations no longer can get listening in lower signal strength areas, and so are not today usable.

KMXE is highly directional days and nights from an end fired array that shoots over the city of Orange, and misses northern LA County by day, and 70% of the metro is outside the interference free night contour. Plus, it is the other side of a faultline, attenuating the signal badly.

KAhn was the scapegoat for the 5 year delay in AM stereo, whereby it was allowed when it was too late.

KNX really can't sell or use the listening in San diego, so the cost savings may be a blessing. KNX gets way less than a sharepoint in San Diego County, and is not even in the top 30 there. Sometimes, it does not even make the book. Their market is the LA MSA. The bureau is more likely there to feed news to the LA market, not to serve SD... for which there is no imaginable reason.

 

[davideduardo]

A blog and/or comments do not carry the same weight, as articles written by professionals with impeccible credentials, and you know that - caught you, in another deceptive maneuver ! You spread this same disinformation on rec.radio.shortwave - ask anyone there.

Let's all take a trip over to rec.radio.shortwave to the, "IBOC... a bit of engineering sleight of hand that David Eduardo isn't telling us:", thread and see how Brenda Ann caught you in another lie !

Mr. Ramsey has no more "impeccable" credentials than I do. He has a right to an opinion, but he does not run radio stations day in and day out. I find fault and significant error in the aritcle you linked to, starting with the absolutely absurd contention that radio has never had to promote hardware... as I explained. Further, much of the "data" is inaccurate as to coverage, impairment of the analog signal (none) and other things I described.

 

[dbdigital]

A while back, one of the pro-IBOC on this board was pontificating on how inferior analog is to digital.

Yep, analog is so inferior that for its 40th anniversary, the Beach Boys announced that they are re-releasing Pet Sounds on LP (color vinyl no less) as well as CD.

Quick, somebody tell them how inferior analog is.

db

 

[davideduardo]

A while back, one of the pro-IBOC on this board was pontificating on how inferior analog is to digital.

Yep, analog is so inferior that for its 40th anniversary, the Beach Boys announced that they are re-releasing Pet Sounds on LP (color vinyl no less) as well as CD.

Quick, somebody tell them how inferior analog is.

db

You are generalizing. AM analog is inferior to digital AM. Analog AM is simply an outdated technology.

 

[vsa]

DAVID WROTE: "Let's try again...XETRA in Spanish is did not get any ratings in San Diego since the switch. The HDHA areas in SD are mostly in the area south and east of downtown, where XETRA is a barn burner. If it did now get ratings in San Diego, even in June, well into the format, why would it get them in LA where there are more Spanish talk stations to begin with?"

One more time YET AGAIN. Under your reasoning, if an AM station changes formats and languages and fails to pull numbers in its first book, it deserves to be jammed. AM 690 has pulled a 1 share as recently as last year in Los Angeles. That proves they have a viable signal in the metro. What's so difficult here for you to understand?

Look, I know you are an advocate for those who plan to thin out the AM band, and reserve it only for a few large markets where a few surviving big-signal stations would then be allowed to double their power. Admit the truth.

DAVID WROTE: "I have no idea how old you are, but if you were a teen when the Wolfman was on XERB (now XEPRS) you are now about 55 or so. In those 30 odd years, the ambient noise level in LA and in all American cities, has increaded horribly and dramtically. Stations no longer can get listening in lower signal strength areas, and so are not today usable."

Again, you think of even a +15 mv/meter signal as being unlistenable. That criteria for protection would achieve your goals to effectively kill off the AM band.

DAVID WROTE: "KMXE is highly directional days and nights from an end fired array that shoots over the city of Orange, and misses northern LA County by day, and 70% of the metro is outside the interference free night contour. Plus, it is the other side of a faultline, attenuating the signal badly."

You continue to get your facts wrong. KMXE 830 is non-directional days and is directional at night with 3 towers aimed toward Los Angeles and Orange County. If you can't get this simple truth correctly, why should anyone buy anything else you write here. The information is posted at this FCC website location:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/amq?stat...&slat2=&NS=N&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&EW=W&size=9

As for 70 percent of the metro being outside of the night-time interference free contour, this link shows that assertion to be untrue as well:

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KMXE&service=AM&status=L&hours=N

David asserts that this kind of signal is not "viable" for HD Radio. That is how bad the technology is!

DAVID WROTE: "KNX really can't sell or use the listening in San diego, so the cost savings may be a blessing...the bureau is more likely there to feed news to the LA market, not to serve SD... for which there is no imaginable reason."

Besides Los Angeles and Orange County, KNX regularly reports news, temperatures and major traffic problems in San Diego County, Riverside County, San Bernardino County and Ventura County. All of those counties are outside of the L-A/Orange County Metro. No station would do that solely to boost listening in the Los Angeles and Orange County Metro.

I am NOT against going digital - far from it. I am against jumping over a cliff for the sake of a technology designed purely to make a few people money.

So you are the iBiquity expert that Autopaint-1 was counting-on to save the day here?

Good night!

 

[davideduardo]

DAVID WROTE: "Let's try again...XETRA in Spanish is did not get any ratings in San Diego since the switch. The HDHA areas in SD are mostly in the area south and east of downtown, where XETRA is a barn burner. If it did now get ratings in San Diego, even in June, well into the format, why would it get them in LA where there are more Spanish talk stations to begin with?"

One more time YET AGAIN. Under your reasoning, if an AM station changes formats and languages and fails to pull numbers in its first book, it deserves to be jammed. AM 690 has pulled a 1 share as recently as last year in Los Angeles. That proves they have a viable signal in the metro. What's so difficult here for you to understand?

Look, I know you are an advocate for those who plan to thin out the AM band, and reserve it only for a few large markets where a few surviving big-signal stations would then be allowed to double their power. Admit the truth.

DAVID WROTE: "I have no idea how old you are, but if you were a teen when the Wolfman was on XERB (now XEPRS) you are now about 55 or so. In those 30 odd years, the ambient noise level in LA and in all American cities, has increaded horribly and dramtically. Stations no longer can get listening in lower signal strength areas, and so are not today usable."

Again, you think of even a +15 mv/meter signal as being unlistenable. That criteria for protection would achieve your goals to effectively kill off the AM band.

DAVID WROTE: "KMXE is highly directional days and nights from an end fired array that shoots over the city of Orange, and misses northern LA County by day, and 70% of the metro is outside the interference free night contour. Plus, it is the other side of a faultline, attenuating the signal badly."

You continue to get your facts wrong. KMXE 830 is non-directional days and is directional at night with 3 towers aimed toward Los Angeles and Orange County. If you can't get this simple truth correctly, why should anyone buy anything else you write here. The information is posted at this FCC website location:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/amq?stat...&slat2=&NS=N&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&EW=W&size=9

As for 70 percent of the metro being outside of the night-time interference free contour, this link shows that assertion to be untrue as well:

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KMXE&service=AM&status=L&hours=N

David asserts that this kind of signal is not "viable" for HD Radio. That is how bad the technology is!

DAVID WROTE: "KNX really can't sell or use the listening in San diego, so the cost savings may be a blessing...the bureau is more likely there to feed news to the LA market, not to serve SD... for which there is no imaginable reason."

Besides Los Angeles and Orange County, KNX regularly reports news, temperatures and major traffic problems in San Diego County, Riverside County, San Bernardino County and Ventura County. All of those counties are outside of the L-A/Orange County Metro. No station would do that solely to boost listening in the Los Angeles and Orange County Metro.

I am NOT against going digital - far from it. I am against jumping over a cliff for the sake of a technology designed purely to make a few people money.

So you are the iBiquity expert that Autopaint-1 was counting-on to save the day here?

XETRA just finished its second book. Part of Winter, all of Spring. In neither the San Diego nor LA Arbitron did it get anything. Zero. And it got a zero in the tijuana INRA survery. Any station that gets no ratings after 5 months is not going to get ratings. And the signal is not good enough to serve the Hispanic areas of LA and Orange counties well enough to listen to, no matter what 710 does.

KMXE _IS_ directional by virtue of ground condutivity. It is highly attenuated daytime by the faultline and the lessening conductivity the farther inland it gets. If it were non-directional, it would have a round pattern. And the fact is, it does not cover anything above downtown LA daytime, and less than 70% of the metro nights (by looking at the interference free countour) because of terrain based directionality. FM's, similarly can be non-directional antennas, but terrain can make them highly direcitonal, like KLAX or KSSE in LA.

The KMXE night pattern is aimed at Orange, the city of license. It barely manages to put 25 mv/m over that city at night. It is not aimed at the city of LA. It is aimed at Orange. The radio locator maps are best guesses based on a very simple model that does not ocmpensate for the table of condutivity or reality. The useful signal area of ANY AM or FM is about 25% less than the innermost red circle on radio-locator.

When the noise levels in a city are very high, it takes a lot of signal to overcome them. In LA, we have done extensive diary analysis of in home and at work AM listening over the last 5 years. Today, it is nearly impossible to show up in a diary without putting a 15 mv/m signal over the listening location. This is supprted by Longley-Rice maps for FM (the only real coverage maps of value) and measured contours for our 15 AM stations. The site says, "for amusement purposes only" which should be a hint. They are not, ever, interference free contours. "This image is intended solely for entertainment purposes. Radio-Locator makes no claims as to the accuracy of this information, nor towards its suitability for any intended purpose"

KMXE is not a good HD candidate because the station does not have a good enough signal to compete. But be my guest, keep believing radio-locator is real... keep believing that mountains and major faultlines don't distort and directionalize groundwave signals. Go for it.

I believe many AMs are so deficient today that they should be eliminated. The whole allocation plan was based on the population densities and noise levels and city sizes of the early 30's, and that does not hold any more.

KNX occasionally reports traffic for areas outside the LA metro. This is principally for LA listeners who are travelling, not for listeners way out there. For example, they up the outbound route coverage Friday afternoon for those driving to TJ, Santa Barbara, vegas and the Desert. They get so little listening in the peripheral markets that they are not serving the local markets... jst the routs in and out of them on the way to and from LA.

Anyway, HD is a fai acomplit. And the idea of owning a radio station is to make money. Always has been.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Anyway, HD is a fai acomplit.

That would be extremely unfortunate. Even 10,000 Leonard Kahns could not jam the AM and FM bands as much as HD Radio even if they tried or wanted to!

 

[vsa]

DAVID WROTE: "KMXE _IS_ directional by virtue of ground condutivity. It is highly attenuated daytime by the faultline and the lessening conductivity the farther inland it gets. If it were non-directional, it would have a round pattern...KMXE is not a good HD candidate..."

Look, I caught you in yet another lie. Don't try to back out by giving me this crap about being directional by means of ground conductivity and fault lines. Los Angeles is built on lots of fault lines. KMXE runs 50kw through a single tower all day long as the earlier FCC link confirmed. Here's a link to 50kw KMXE 830's quite roundish daytime pattern, And these maps are actually quite accurate for their size and scale. All you have to do is look at your stations' FCC engineering construction permit maps to see that:

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KMXE&service=AM&status=L&hours=D

You see, I back up my claims with facts and links. You make all kinds of wild claims, hide behind some fancy jargon, and post no links.

DAVID WROTE: "I believe many AMs are so deficient today that they should be eliminated."

You have now admitted the dirty truth of your real agenda.

DAVID WROTE: "KNX occasionally reports traffic for areas outside the LA metro. This is principally for LA listeners who are travelling, not for listeners way out there..."

L-A listeners who are traveling? Oh, you mean traveling DXers??
You don't have a clue as to why KNX does what it does.

DAVID WROTE: "Anyway, HD is a fai acomplit."

Is that why you're lying through your teeth here all day long and all night long in an effort to defend it?

Finally David. You didn't know this earlier, but I thought I'd save this for now. Here's the word from KMXE's chief engineer as he told me personally. Some HD equipment had fried awhile back - not very different from your KTNQ's HD equipment that also fried. After a forced return to analog while they awaited a new unit, the new owners (also the owners of the Los Angeles Angels) agreed with their CE's advice and have decided to keep KMXE analog-only for the forseeable future. They have increased the audio bandwidth well beyond HD's 5khz. They are very pleased with the results since they dumped HD. The decision had NOTHING to do with HD suitability. Their CE says HD is a big disappointment and also causes way too much adjacent channel noise. He says HD Radio is not even close to what had always been promised!

In every "off-the-record" conversation I've had with radio engineers in Los Angeles, the verdict is unanimous so far. HD Radio is a dog!
 

 

[SayNoToIBOC]

vsa,

This guy is unbelievable - I have never seen such a spin-doctor in all my life, but searching the Internet, it looks like he a Univision executive (but, he will deny that). I too, including many users on rec.radio.shortwave have caught him in lies, misquotes, deceptions, and the like - he seems to have a comeback for everything (I think he must be reading off a Univision question/answer script). He is up all hours of the night posting, so he must have a lot to lose, when iBiquity/IBOC goes the way of XM and Sirius Satellite Radio...

 

[autopaint-1]

I guess we'll find out by early next year. Funny, I have known about HD for a few years but outside of the industry I don't know of any public advertising having been done. Considering that until the spring of this year there were only a few expensive car radios available, I think that asking about public interest is a little, Ok is very premature. We'll learn a lot more after the holiday season. Be patient, Don't dismiss anything until it's given a chance and if HD is such a none-issue as you maintain, what do you get out of discussing it. You aren't changing any opinons?

 

[SayNoToIBOC]

And nor are you...

 

[davideduardo]

vsa,

This guy is unbelievable - I have never seen such a spin-doctor in all my life, but searching the Internet, it looks like he a Univision executive (but, he will deny that). I too, including many users on rec.radio.shortwave have caught him in lies, misquotes, deceptions, and the like - he seems to have a comeback for everything (I think he must be reading off a Univision question/answer script). He is up all hours of the night posting, so he must have a lot to lose, when iBiquity/IBOC goes the way of XM and Sirius Satellite Radio...

I am not denying that I work with Univsion and that Univsion radio proudly is converting its stations to HDand is introducing HD 2 channels in all the markets. Why would I deny that?

I have also been in radio for 47 years, in many countries. Successfully. And I believe radio is at another of those crossroads where it has to do the right thing or not survive, such as the changes the advent of TV brought on in the 50's. I think HD is needed and will prove or great consumer value.

I also believe that AM may not be, eventually, savable. There are too many and most of them are bad technical facilities. Few people under 45 listen (just 10% of the listening by 12-44 year olds is to AM) and they may not come back. But HD offers a chance even here.

So SURE I believe in HD. I think it is fortunate we have it to turn to.

Oh, and I have not been caught in any "lises and misqotes." There is one absolute nutcase on the SW ng who hates Canadians, Hispanics, etc., who finds fault in whether one puts hyphens or spaces between letters, but that is all.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: For Amusement Purposes Only... it says it right there.

DAVID WROTE: "KMXE _IS_ directional by virtue of ground condutivity. It is highly attenuated daytime by the faultline and the lessening conductivity the farther inland it gets. If it were non-directional, it would have a round pattern...KMXE is not a good HD candidate..."

Look, I caught you in yet another lie. Don't try to back out by giving me this crap about being directional by means of ground conductivity and fault lines. Los Angeles is built on lots of fault lines. KMXE runs 50kw through a single tower all day long as the earlier FCC link confirmed. Here's a link to 50kw KMXE 830's quite roundish daytime pattern, And these maps are actually quite accurate for their size and scale. All you have to do is look at your stations' FCC engineering construction permit maps to see that:

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KMXE&service=AM&status=L&hours=D

You see, I back up my claims with facts and links. You make all kinds of wild claims, hide behind some fancy jargon, and post no links.

DAVID WROTE: "I believe many AMs are so deficient today that they should be eliminated."

You have now admitted the dirty truth of your real agenda.

DAVID WROTE: "KNX occasionally reports traffic for areas outside the LA metro. This is principally for LA listeners who are travelling, not for listeners way out there..."

L-A listeners who are traveling? Oh, you mean traveling DXers??
You don't have a clue as to why KNX does what it does.

DAVID WROTE: "Anyway, HD is a fai acomplit."

Is that why you're lying through your teeth here all day long and all night long in an effort to defend it?

Finally David. You didn't know this earlier, but I thought I'd save this for now. Here's the word from KMXE's chief engineer as he told me personally. Some HD equipment had fried awhile back - not very different from your KTNQ's HD equipment that also fried. After a forced return to analog while they awaited a new unit, the new owners (also the owners of the Los Angeles Angels) agreed with their CE's advice and have decided to keep KMXE analog-only for the forseeable future. They have increased the audio bandwidth well beyond HD's 5khz. They are very pleased with the results since they dumped HD. The decision had NOTHING to do with HD suitability. Their CE says HD is a big disappointment and also causes way too much adjacent channel noise. He says HD Radio is not even close to what had always been promised!

In every "off-the-record" conversation I've had with radio engineers in Los Angeles, the verdict is unanimous so far. HD Radio is a dog!

Let's try again. Apparently you are not in radio, and do not understand the terminology. Try this: KMXE's coverage is not circular, as a non-directional station in some places might be. It is highly irregular, being reduced to the from about 190 degrees to 1120 degrees by the exceedingly low ground conductivity of the desert and desert mountains. It is also separated by a major faultline from its intended market area, a know attenuater of signals. Further, the site has a mountain range right to the West of it, and another to on the 210 degree to 180 degree arc. These attenuate the signal, and give the coverage the same kind or irregular coverage as a directional antenna.

See? I just said the same thing I did before. The station is directionalized, but by terrain, conductivity and other factors. It has no sigtnal in the northern half of LA County by day that can generate any listening at all.

The radio-locator coverage maps do not take ground conductivity into account. If you want such a map, you have to commission it from Data World or use software that costs tens of thousands to use. In such cases, all the effects of terrain are taken into account.

Again. radio-locator prints "for amusement purposes only" on every map because the contours are so inaccurate they do not want to be sued.

You back your allegations with links to free "Amusement" sites that have no validity, like radio-locator. The only valid map is one based on conductivvity and, preferable, field strength measurements. Neither is the case with raido-locator. It is, in fact, funny and a sign you have no real radio or broadcasting knowedge that you rely on such a site...

Yep, I think a lot of AMs are useless. I think many low power ones should go a way. I think many daytimers should A clearer band would allow the remaining stations to increase powers to the levels that will cover whole markets, whether local or rural, and get rd of those that have to have 8 or 10 towers to protect all the surrounding stations they are coexisting with. Bt even that will not save AM, I fear.

You are aware that form the 50's through the 90's, half of all US radio stations lost money? There must be somethin g wrong with the FCC allocations system for that to happen. I think, in part, it is establishing horribly low power levels and allowing too many daytimers and other inferior facilities. This is stated as my opinion, and I can give you a wealth of data on how, even recently, the adding of tons of smaller FMs under Docket 80-90 worsened service in mostly rural America by adding a thousand or so new FMS in the early 90's.

KNX's focus in traffic is to serve LA and Orange County listeners, as stated in a recent talk radio conference by David G. Hall, the PD. If you actually listen, you know the non-local traffic reports are done seldom and mostly at times LA MSA residents (the only ones who get diaries) may be on holiday or vacation trips, such as the tens of thousands who go to Vegas each weekend. It's a service to local listeners, not to residents outside the metro. Heck, we do it on KLVE and KSCA and KRCD and KTNQ, too. It is just good common sense (and we get our traffic from the same place they do, anyway).

KTNQ's HD is back, and sounds nice. That KMXE is not using it seems sensible. The array may be very high Q and not take to HD very well. And anyway, it is a marginal and uncompetitive signal that has never broken a 1-share in LA, under multiple formats ranging from westwood talk to dance to Svarious incarnations of Spanish talk. Right now, it has a zip... and has since the new owner took over... showing how brilliant they are as broadcasters... and how bad the signal truly is.

 

[autopaint-1]

"And nor are you..."


I'm not attempting to change anyones opinion. This is a board for the discussion of HD technology and all I read from neysayers is that it's awful. The same mantra over and over. Notice how you've basically killed this board. People don't want to deal with this over and over. The other board actially has some interesting discussions about the technology. Congratulations.

 

[dbdigital]

A while back, one of the pro-IBOC on this board was pontificating on how inferior analog is to digital.

Yep, analog is so inferior that for its 40th anniversary, the Beach Boys announced that they are re-releasing Pet Sounds on LP (color vinyl no less) as well as CD.

Quick, somebody tell them how inferior analog is.

db

You are generalizing. AM analog is inferior to digital AM. Analog AM is simply an outdated technology.

Actually, I wasn't the one who initially did the generalizing, but no matter.

So analog AM is outdated. Well, let's consider what the current criteria is for AM.

1. Provide high quality sound, including stereo, 2. be compatible with millions of radios, 3. broadcast within the allotted 10 KHz bandwidth.

Well, what do you know, analog AM can already do that. What analog AM radio doesn't need to do is take up nearly 30 KHz of bandwidth to do the same job. For that we need IBOC and DRM.

And they call this progress?

db

 

[davideduardo]

A while back, one of the pro-IBOC on this board was pontificating on how inferior analog is to digital.

Yep, analog is so inferior that for its 40th anniversary, the Beach Boys announced that they are re-releasing Pet Sounds on LP (color vinyl no less) as well as CD.

Quick, somebody tell them how inferior analog is.

db

Analog AM is inferior. In persons 12-34, about 6% of the population uses it... about one out of every 17 people even uses it. 16 out of every 17 does not! In 12-44, only 10% uses analog AM. 9 out of every 10 persons from 12 to 44 does not use AM.

In other words, in another few years, when most of the 45-54's no longer listen, AM will be dead.

Who cares about bandwidth then? The rest of us realize that there is nearly no listening to stations via skywave and none in fringe areas, so occupying somewhat greater bandwidth has no loss and great gains. HD is backward compatible with analog AM, and offers an opportunity to regain some of the younger listeners who will come as programming for them returns to AM.

You are generalizing. AM analog is inferior to digital AM. Analog AM is simply an outdated technology.

Actually, I wasn't the one who initially did the generalizing, but no matter.

So analog AM is outdated. Well, let's consider what the current criteria is for AM.

1. Provide high quality sound, including stereo, 2. be compatible with millions of radios, 3. broadcast within the allotted 10 KHz bandwidth.

Well, what do you know, analog AM can already do that. What analog AM radio doesn't need to do is take up nearly 30 KHz of bandwidth to do the same job. For that we need IBOC and DRM.

And they call this progress?

db