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"HD Radio Self-Noise" (a technical paper)

R

radioskeptic

Most of the alarms on the board have been about AM IBOC, but FM IBOC has serious problems, too.

"HD Radio Self-Noise" is essential reading for anyone who cares about the future of FM radio. Unless you're willing to accept using a converted car radio as your home radio or tuner -- and you don't mind the increase in distortion that comes with the decreased IF bandwidth -- you can forget about ever hearing analog stereo FM at its best again from any station that goes IBOC. (Or you can listen in MONO!)

To read the paper, use this link: http://users.tns.net/~bb/hdrsn.htm

Here's a sample:

"Noise you hear during analog reception of an HD Radio signal can come from its own digital sidebands, not just those of an adjacent-channel signal. The stereo decoder in your tuner or receiver may mistake the digital sidebands as part of the stereo subcarrier. Because the digital subcarriers are numerous and their data randomized, analog detection yields noise. It appears in both audio channels. " [Note: the noise from the digital sidebands, being treated as part of the difference subcarrier signal, will be out of phase on the two channels. -- radioskeptic]

That ought to whet your appetite! But be forewarned that it's a VERY technical paper.
 
Very good article. I know one engineer on here said he was going to measure his s/n with I-BLOC on and off. He said he never thought to test it until I mentioned it.
 
I never had a problem with the analog signals. But then, the purpose of hybrid-digital is to be a bridge to an all-digital system. The author lists some remedies such as purchasing better analog radios and updating existing ones. I would have placed most credence in the article if one of his suggestions were to purchase an HD radio! Would that not be another possible solution?
 
ElCheapo said:
audiophile. said:
With all due respect, OVER MY DEAD BODY!
Click to expand...
Well, you may be dead by the time it happens - but it WILL happen!
Click to expand...

Don't bet on it yet - IBOC still hasn't been formally approved by the FCC, especially nighttime AM. VERY few are interested in HD Radio, as very poor sales figures bear this out - there are too many roadblocks and IBOC will fail !
 
Well, you may be dead by the time it happens - but it WILL happen!
I sure hope you are right. Although I am an IBOC supporter, I really do not like the hybrid mode-especially on AM. I think the FCC should encourage the industry to get to the all-digital mode ASEP. Offering HD radios in cars will be a good start.
 
Len14043 said:
Well, you may be dead by the time it happens - but it WILL happen!
Click to expand...
Len14043 said:
I sure hope you are right.
Click to expand...

Although I am an IBOC supporter, I really do not like the hybrid mode-especially on AM. I think the FCC should encourage the industry to get to the all-digital mode ASAP. Offering HD radios in cars will be a good start.
 
Len14043 said:
I never had a problem with the analog signals. But then, the purpose of hybrid-digital is to be a bridge to an all-digital system. The author lists some remedies such as purchasing better analog radios and updating existing ones. I would have placed most credence in the article if one of his suggestions were to purchase an HD radio! Would that not be another possible solution?
Click to expand...
Solution to what?
The solution is to elliminate HD Radio. Easy, simple and cheap. Let's keep what we have. No one should have to buy new HD Radios in order to continue getting what they already have.
HD Radio is a truly malcious, destructive, expensive, incompatible, problematic, technology.
There is a better, more compatible system!
FMeXtra www.dreinc.com Simple, less expensive, less complex, more coverage then HD, more compatible, and truly in band and on channel (not adjacent channel like HD Radio).
Then the public won't have to replace their radios twice. Once for hybrid and again for all digital.
 
Len14043 said:
Len14043 said:
Well, you may be dead by the time it happens - but it WILL happen!
Click to expand...
Len14043 said:
I sure hope you are right.
Click to expand...

Although I am an IBOC supporter, I really do not like the hybrid mode-especially on AM. I think the FCC should encourage the industry to get to the all-digital mode ASAP. Offering HD radios in cars will be a good start.
Click to expand...
There are already 2 approved all digital broadcasting systems with hundreds of stations each, and nationwide coverage, even in the suburbs and rural areas. Sirius, and XM. They don't interfere with AM or FM. If you want digital it's been available for years.
 
[/quote]
There are already 2 approved all digital broadcasting systems with hundreds of stations each, and nationwide coverage, even in the suburbs and rural areas. Sirius, and XM. They don't interfere with AM or FM. If you want digital it's been available for years.
[/quote]

But I do not want to pay a subscription fee. I want the benefits of digital radio on the broadcast bands, not on Sirius, XM, WiFi or any other medium besides the free broadcasting bands. The faster we get through the hybrid phase, the better.
 
HD Radio is a truly malcious, destructive, expensive, incompatible, problematic, technology.
There is a better, more compatible system!
FMeXtra www.dreinc.com Simple, less expensive, less complex, more coverage then HD, more compatible, and truly in band and on channel (not adjacent channel like HD Radio).
You may be right, but apparently the FCC doesn't agree. IBOC is the system we have to live with.


Then the public won't have to replace their radios twice. Once for hybrid and again for all digital.
[/quote]
The public will not have to replace their radios twice. The radios that work in the hydrid mode will also work in the all-digital mode.
 
Len's right, but I don't want to have to replace my radio even once.
 
Actually, XM and Sirius DO interfere with FM.

And the more interference of that sort, the better, sez I.

I would like to find a used FM exciter and mount it in the trunk of my car, set it to the nearby FM translator frequency from Idaho, and feed Air America, the gangsta rap channel 66, or maybe just 1K tone, into it just for fun.
 
--->The public will not have to replace their radios twice. The radios that work in the hydrid mode will also work in the all-digital mode.


And what about the hundreds of millions existing of analog radios?

Dream on.

At the rate that HD radio will grow, even under NAB's rosiest scenario, the AM-FM industry will long have faded into the background static of irrelevance before it reaches the critical mass where enough digital radios will be in the marketplace.
 

There are already 2 approved all digital broadcasting systems with hundreds of stations each, and nationwide coverage, even in the suburbs and rural areas. Sirius, and XM. They don't interfere with AM or FM. If you want digital it's been available for years.
[/quote]

But I do not want to pay a subscription fee. I want the benefits of digital radio on the broadcast bands, not on Sirius, XM, WiFi or any other medium besides the free broadcasting bands. The faster we get through the hybrid phase, the better.
[/quote]
But you don't mind the cost of replacing all your analog radios with expensive HD Radios?
That argument makes no sense.
 
Len14043 said:
HD Radio is a truly malcious, destructive, expensive, incompatible, problematic, technology.
There is a better, more compatible system!
FMeXtra www.dreinc.com Simple, less expensive, less complex, more coverage then HD, more compatible, and truly in band and on channel (not adjacent channel like HD Radio).
You may be right, but apparently the FCC doesn't agree. IBOC is the system we have to live with.


Then the public won't have to replace their radios twice. Once for hybrid and again for all digital.
Click to expand...

The public will not have to replace their radios twice. The radios that work in the hydrid mode will also work in the all-digital mode.[/quote]
Who says?
The revision 1 HD radios are not even upgradeble to revision 2.
Just more promotional hype from the same HD supporters that claim HD radio is "CD quality", "In Band On Channel", "compatible with analog", "does not interfere with existing analog transmission", etc., etc., etc.
A totally unbelieveable source.
 
[/quote]
But you don't mind the cost of replacing all your analog radios with expensive HD Radios?
That argument makes no sense.
[/quote]
Most of the listening occurs in my car. I purchased a JVC HD radio for $199, which also happens to be a great radio for DXing. Plus that fact I wanted to replace my stock radio for one with a CD player. So actually I didn't spend that much extra money seeing that I was going to get a new radio anyways. I actually got hooked on an HD2 from Dayton and sometimes listen to it over my PC. I'll purchase an home HD radio sometime, but I'm in no hurry.
 
Beside teenagers, who rips the stock radio out their car if it is functional?

Not many percentage wise...
 
Including teenagers, just who is in the market for $200 radio anymore?

Most of the highend audio equipment I see for sale at Best Buy have 8-10 input jacks for computers, cable TV, video games, CDs, DVDs, iPods, satellte radio, etc.

Some of the big surround sound devices have a crappy AM-FM radio added almost as an afterthought - none of them, not one, with HD radio.

And by the way,if you are going to play around with the stupid text buttons (font=dingbat, color = neon white) , please figure out how to use them properly, and go back and fix them if
you make a mistake and look like a goober.
Click to expand...
 
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