"HD Radio Shouldn't Be This Hard"

[JohnnyElectron]

Actually, what I HAVE seen of lot of in the 2010 and 2011 models is RDS on FM - even Sony has RDS as do some other aftermarket radios starting to advertise it, so FM stations would be smart to at least make use of the data on RBDS since it is standard on Nissan this year as well.
Maybe that's the only good to come from HD is the data being used on RDS on the millions of analog radios.

 

[Carmine5]

It appears that Tom Ray's doubts about AM-HDR have made the pages of RBR as well.

In addition to his thoughts on HD Radio Tom adds a few more observations about the state of AM in the RBR article.

http://www.rbr.com/radio/26662.html

 

[Savage]

I can hear the upset tummies at iBiquity all the way up here in Rochester! Talk about widespread corporate indigestion... ;D

Tom Ray was...note past tense....one of HD-AM's most virulent and dogmatic supporters. Tom didn't hestitate to publicly ridicule anyone who wasn't as blindly accepting of HD-AM as he was.

If he's not on board any more, that's one VERY dead canary-in-the-coal-mine for HD.

I've been saying here and elsewhere for more than two years, that the number of AM stations claimed to be operating in HD has been vastly exaggerated by iBiquity and the Alliance - and they're turning off on an accelerated pace. Nobody is listening. There are no radios. The interference is awful. HD can't even win over Tom Ray's news director with an expensive brand-new car, OEM HD radio and a 50kw local signal.

Kill it. Kill it right now.

 

[TheBigA]

Nobody is listening. There are no radios. The interference is awful.

On the other hand, HD was really the last gasp for AM. There will be no new technologies for the band. It will simply plod along the way it has for the last 35 years until the very last listener dies of old age.

One lesson I learned a long time ago: If you're not growing, then you're dying. That applies to many things, most notably AM. Formats will continue to move to FM. Listeners will continue to leave. And historic frequencies and call letters will join old factories as deserted ghosts of America's industrial past. Who will rush to preserve these 50K AMs after their current owners shut them down? Anyone?

 

[Savage]

Well, assuming your blanket declarations about AM to be universally accurate - which I don't do, for what that's worth - it was hardly productive for HD Radio to accelerate the decline by dramatically increasing noise and interference.

Just tune across the AM band tonight between 660 and 1200 and you'll hear what I mean.

Thanks for your "contribution," HD Radio. What a freakin' mess. And if HD nuts get their wish - which I tend to doubt thus far - they'll make a similar morass out of FM.

If someone wanted to totally screw the radio industry, they would choose HD Radio as a most useful tool. It's beyond dumb.

 

[Savage]

While we're at it, BigA - HD was not "new technology" for AM. It was simply and starkly: a scam. It never would have worked.

HD is similarly crap-tech for FM. HD Radio for FM won't be the abject and dramatic failure HD-AM was, but it will eventually fail there as well, and for the same reasons (lack of marketplace interest, marginal performance and unacceptable interference.) the FM failure will just take longer because HD proponents endorsed the self-dealing of NPR Labs, greedy to snatch additional channels for niche formats like classical and jazz. All with the aid of government grants, so there was no risk since taxpayers picked up the cap-ex represented by HD conversions. So pubcasters will continue to represent the closest thing HD will ever have as a "killer app," so IBOC will languish on the low end of the FM dial until internet program distribution obsoletes it.

There will be a smattering of HD on commercial channels, but you'll see the same slo-mo demise currently being exhibited by HD-AM.

And HD's bitter disciples will bray that failure to embrace "radio's digital future" spells myopia which will DOOM THE INDUSTRY, all because we refused to obediently accept our doses of engineering laetrile.

Memo to HD: go toddle off to well-deserved oblivion. Radio has important work to do.

 

[TheBigA]

Well, assuming your blanket declarations about AM to be universally accurate - which I don't do, for what that's worth

Believe what you want to believe. But every few years another AM station disappears from the ratings books. Even you recognized it and smartly bought an FM translator. You're one of the lucky ones. AM is in trouble, and has been for 30 years. It needs something to revive it. The government hasn't helped. Technology hasn't helped. Changes in ownership haven't helped. The public has no reason to be interested in AM radio. Any more than they have a reason to be interested in manual typewriters.

it was hardly productive for HD Radio to accelerate the decline by dramatically increasing noise and interference.

Doesn't matter. The audiophiles left AM for FM back in the 50s. The death of AM happened long before HD Radio. The fact that HD failed to help is not something to celebrate. The history of inventors who have sought to improve AM quality is filled with failure. At some point, a smart person stops banging his head against a brick wall. I think we've reached that point with AM. There will be no Leonard Kahn who will come along with a great idea to bring AM into the 21st Century. That time has passed.

Don't misunderstand this as some defense of HD. That's not the point. It was a fultile ambition in the first place. Improving AM might have been useful ten years ago, but not now. In the current technological and media marketplace, AM radio is one step above the afternoon newspaper. For now. You can debate or attack that point of view, but it's true.

Just tune across the AM band tonight between 660 and 1200 and you'll hear what I mean.

Yep...do exactly that tonight, and tell me about all the compelling programming you hear. THAT says more than the noise and interference. No one is investing in programming for AM. The current hosts will continue to do what they do, and milk it as long as they can. Then one by one, they'll fade away. When they're gone, it'll be over.

So all the DXers and purists who want to keep AM the way it was can watch as it continues its downward spiral. Because no one will be coming to preserve it.

While we're at it, BigA - HD was not "new technology" for AM. It was simply and starkly: a scam. It never would have worked.

I don't care. Unlike you, I don't have a dog in this fight. It doesn't matter to me if it was new, old, or a scam. It doesn't matter. That battle is over. So HD will die. But so will AM with it, and that's the undeniable truth.

You can decry "radio's digital future," but there's no need to synthesize it any more. It exists. The owners know it, and they've already begun the transition. You either grow, or you die. The growth is not in broadcast.

 

[RadioMan203]

In case you missed it, I had done an opinion piece of HD Radio that was published in the June 30th edition of Radio World entitled HD Radio Faces Rocky Road.

Tom brings up some great points on how Joe Consumer isn't going to jump through hoops to get HD Radio in their cars but I also outlined flaws in not only the development of the system but consumer awareness and acceptance. It seems that HD Radio may be this decade's AM Stereo.

 

[local oscillator]

I'm not so sure that AM doesn't still have a few chapters to write. Well-programmed AM stations with good signals do quite well in many markets. Sure, most AMs don't fit that description, but we all knew years ago that the viability of those marginal stations was going to be limited by the widespread acceptance of FM. Believe me, I know; I turned in the license for one myself. If someday AM does die, I hope it isn't from cancer (HD).

 

[tomservo]

Boy, you guys are a bunch of Debbie Downers!

First of all, AM isn't going anywhere. It will just change to adapt to the future just like everything else. As long as there are people who are willing to pony up for "dollar a holler" and ethic programming, AM will be around. FM properties are simply too costly for those formats in most markets.

It will (presumably) fill someone's needs, even if not our wants.

One day, lord willing and the creek don't rise, we'll be on the road to a booming economy again, and radio stations may again become desirable properties. But in many markets, there is simply no room on the FM dial for more signals. Thus, AM will again have a place for the few news/talk/sports outlets that can't find a home on analog FM.

I think the 50 kW powerhouses will be around for a while unless gross mismanagement topples them.

I'm also not ready to write off FM HD just yet. It's savior may come from the unlikeliness of places: the internet. We are becoming accustomed to having our program available anytime, anywhere. But as data grows in the mobile sphere, carriers are beginning to clamp down on "unlimited" data plans. Unlimited ain't unlimited for anyone, but it's about to get even more restricted. So streaming Pandora or Last.FM or Digital Underground is not going to be the radio-killer people think it is.

Instead, what people will be able to do in the fancy future is go from streaming an enjoyable station online at work to listening to its simulcast on an HD subchannel. The radios will continue to improve, hopefully, and stations adding HD will multiply. It would be a wise marketing tool on behalf of the radio giants to market their HD subchannel stations as being available everywhere, even in the car on the go. I can pay $30/month for Verizon's high speed service on a Droid and face data caps for streaming music in the car, or I can listen for free on the radio, then go back to streaming at school, work or home. Hmm, not a tough choice.

This scenario puts the radio stations with multiple streams, multiple HD subchannels at a slight competitive advantage of the strictly-streaming world of internet music. In the digital, online future, that might just make HD cost effective one day. (Especially if iBiquity would make licensing fees disappear, but we know that'll never happen.)

 

[TheBigA]

I'm not so sure that AM doesn't still have a few chapters to write. Well-programmed AM stations with good signals do quite well in many markets.

And horses still make great transportation.

Every year, we celebrate them at the Kentucky Derby. Then we all get in our expensive cars, and drive away.

First of all, AM isn't going anywhere. It will just change to adapt to the future just like everything else.

Part of the problem is that AM isn't going anywhere. It needs help. Wishing and hoping isn't enough. Nobody's investing in it, and nobody's coming up with formats other than news, talk, or sports.

And every time someone tries to adapt it to the future, they run into a brick wall. Sure, the technology ain't great. They're trying to squeeze too much information into a very limited area. Like trying to drive a tractor trailor down a narrow brick path. But at some point, you can't modernize antiquated technology. That's when you move on. There are lots of other ways to get commercials in front of the public. AM radio isn't the one and only path.

But hey, a few dozen 50K AMs will probably survive for a while. Mostly in heritage markets. But there won't be any new AMs signing on with exciting new formats that will attract people away from their computers, cell phones, or anything else. You want to take that as a victory? Fine. But I'm not building my career around it.

 

[audioguy]

Yup, the AM's are really takin' a hit in the latest ratings book. No hope for them! Might as well shut off the juice and use those sticks for wireless broadband transmission.

Chicago ratings: http://www.radio-info.com/site/markets/grid/chicago

 

[TheBigA]

As I said, a few heritage stations are still hanging on. All with aging talk show hosts and demos.

For every market like Chicago, there are markets like DC. How's AM doing there?

This is not a growth area folks.

 

[Gatekeeper007]

Like I said in another thread HD is not natural, it is kinda forced on us. If they would have gone on the FM side with FM extra we would have digital radio with a lot less interference to others, still have 1,2,3, feeds and a much more natural and compatible system with a lot less problems. Also the general public would catch on to ot much quicker and eaiser, AM? thats a different story.

 

[BRNout]

As I said, a few heritage stations are still hanging on. All with aging talk show hosts and demos.

For every market like Chicago, there are markets like DC. How's AM doing there?

This is not a growth area folks.

True, but it would do better if we could clear the band of about 2/3 of what's on there. Most lower powered AMs (graveyarders and the like) are not financially viable. Furthermore, by breaking up the clears and shoehorning stations into already congested airspace, the FCC is hastening the demise of this band.

And, they're STILL doing it. Great example: WCPT Chicago (820). For decades, this was a daytimer, switching off at night to allow the robust skywave signal of WBAP to roll in. Now, it's powered up at night, obliterating WBAP over much of northern IL and NW IN. Yes, you can say that it's serving its local area (with a 12+ rating of 0.2). But that signal also goes somewhere beyond its local area, further cluttering up and already too-full band. Furthermore, the same mindnumbingly boring talk format that is on WCPT is already broadcast on THREE FM frequencies in the Chicago area: 92.5 De Kalb, 92.7 Arlington Heights and 99.9 Oak Park. So, no new territory was even gained from this.

This sort of thing has to stop. Over time, the FCC has permitted so much of this that the whole band is cluttered. And that interference degrades the entire band. The example I just gave is far more than a complaint that I can no longer hear WBAP's skywave; it's more of a general complaint that this is what's happening across the entire band. And even WCPT's signal will propagate at night, causing clutter elsewhere. Just as a small station in MI does on 850 to KOA, and some Spanish station does on 890 - actually infringing on WLS within it's protected contour some nights.

AM would sure sound a lot better with a lot fewer stations. And, those stations would be more financially viable too.

 

[Savage]

As you would say, BigA, "believe what you want to believe."

Is there a "digital future" for radio, AM and FM? You bet. The digital future is here right now.

It's called "the internet."

Infrastructure already exists. Everyone owns a "receiver" or multiple "receivers." It's robust, requires little capital for broadcasters, no new hardware for the consumer, is infinitely expandable for multiple programming needs. It works, and it's expanding at an explosive rate, as opposed to HD which is flatlined - except on AM, where it's down the drain. If you're away from your computer and talking on your cellphone instead of listening to it, there are a billion existing AM & FM receivers out there to listen to your favorite programming - the old-fashioned equally-reliable and proven analog way.

Whatever problems radio has, one of them ISN'T lack of distribution methods. HD Radio is akin to a wonderful new method of tying your shoes with ViseGrips and long-nosed pliers.

You apparently like metaphors, with the wry observation "horses still make great transportation." My metaphorical retort: HD Radio is a cool-looking nuclear-reactor driven steam locomotive in a world of airports and 757s.

 

[TheBigA]

For decades, this was a daytimer, switching off at night to allow the robust skywave signal of WBAP to roll in. Now, it's powered up at night, obliterating WBAP over much of northern IL and NW IN.

Here's a question: What is on WBAP at night that someone in Chicago might want to hear? The Midnight Truckers? They're also on WLS at night. In Chicago. As well as dozens of other stations in Illinois and Indiana. So no need to DX WBAP just to hear the Truckers. And if that fails, for some reason, simply log in to wbap.com, and stream the station. Why strain to hear distant AM stations through static and clutter?

Over time, the FCC has permitted so much of this that the whole band is cluttered. And that interference degrades the entire band.

So you're saying there's interference even without HD?

 

[TheBigA]

Is there a "digital future" for radio, AM and FM? You bet. The digital future is here right now.

It's called "the internet."

Yes I know. I said that.

Whatever problems radio has, one of them ISN'T lack of distribution methods.

My point wasn't about radio. It's about AM. The problems AM has won't improve because HD disappears. And there will be no future attempts to solve AMs problems because no one cares.

 

[BRNout]

Here's a question: What is on WBAP at night that someone in Chicago might want to hear? The Midnight Truckers? They're also on WLS at night. In Chicago. As well as dozens of other stations in Illinois and Indiana. So no need to DX WBAP just to hear the Truckers. And if that fails, for some reason, simply log in to wbap.com, and stream the station. Why strain to hear distant AM stations through static and clutter?

That wasn't my point and I indicated as much in my post. Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote. Although, admittedly, I would rather listen to the trucking bozos and Laura Ingraham than the crap that WCPT is cranking out - but that is a different subject.

No, my point is that if WCPT is knocking out a previously strong former clear (mind you, this just started a couple of months ago), it's probably also contributing a good deal of interference beyond it's range as well. Making 820 a mish-mosh in places like Milwaukee, western MI, St. Louis, etc. Places that didn't need more interference.

So you're saying there's interference even without HD?

Yes. But they're not mutually exclusive. The FCC's shoehorning is the metaphorical local bully punching you in the arms and gut - you're bruised, but you'll live. He does steal your lunch money though.

IBOC, on the other hand, is more like an angry and well-sculpted Mike Tyson, fresh out of prison, who thinks you've been doing his wife. The bully's blows are quickly forgotten as Tyson immediately beats you to a pulp without breaking a sweat. And, not only does he take your wallet, but he quickly spends your money and his own. ;D

In simpler terms (without the analogy), too many stations crowding into the AM band creates irritating interference. HD sidebands create interference that obliterates reception on at least 20 kHz on each side of the offender. The latter is an order of magnitude worse than the former.

 

[TheBigA]

IBOC, on the other hand, is more like an angry and well-sculpted Mike Tyson, fresh out of prison, who thinks you've been doing his wife.

My view is they both come from the same point of view, which is that the FCC wants to promote diversity of formats, and diversity of ownership. So they destroyed the value of an AM license, especially for the clears, shoehorned in a bunch of annoying mosquitoes, and then gave them all the ability to multicast with HD. Your government dollars at work.

25 years ago, inventors and electronics manufacturers were motivated to come up with things to improve the sound of AM, especially given the terrible job the FCC has done with it. My view is that we're now at a point where that no longer matters. It doesn't matter if an inventor comes with an improvement filter to make AM sound like FM. It doesn't matter if an inventor comes up with a better tuner that eliminates all interference. It doesn't matter if the FCC does what you suggest, although the reality is they won't, because they don't know AM is even there. That's where we are now. HD was the last attempt to do something for the AM dial, such as it was. There won't be any more attempts. Because to put it simply, there's no money in the solution.