HD Radio Signal Vs. Current Signal

[bowserb]

With HD radio is there any difference in signal travel? For example for a station that covers a 60 mile radius, is it the same if it were HD?

 

[700WLW]

With HD radio is there any difference in signal travel? For example for a station that covers a 60 mile radius, is it the same if it were HD?

HD Radio/IBOC's coverage is about half of analog's coverage:

"HERE IS THE LATEST BUZZ ON HD RADIO, FROM ONE WHO BOUGHT ALL THE HYPE."

http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com/2006_10_01_worldsupercaster_archive.html

 

[Mike Walker]

The real story from one who owns an HD Radio is that, "it depends". If there's nobody on a first adjacent channel that you can receive (on your analog radio) next to the station you want to hear, then you might be surprised at how far the HD goes. It can be 80 percent or even close to 100 percent of the analog's coverage. I'm getting some HD signals at 80+ miles on an Accurian with indoor (Magnum Dynalab SR100) antenna.

However if, as with me, there's a 1st adjacent channel...as with 88.5 in Winston Salem NC (not HD) next to 88.7 WNCW Spindale (which is HD), you can just about forget about HD, and the coverage can be as lousy as 700WLW claims. But usually it's that lousy ONLY in the direction of the 1st adjacent station.

It varies wildly. In MOST cases, however, HD covers the engire metro area of FM stations, which is where their money and audience (Arbitron) figures come into play. For most broadcasters, that's enough. But for listeners in the boondocks, it can be hit or miss. I live in an "HD Free" zone as far as local signals, but manage to pull in several HD stations from markets 60-80 miles from me. I will tell you that there are other stations I KNOW are HD (90.7 WFAE Charlotte, 90.3 WFHE Hickory, 106.5 "The End" Charlotte, and others) that I know are HD, but just can't get. I have received "The End" briefly in HD, but no more (and no big loss! I'm not an alternative rock fan, or a fan of the raunchy standup comedy on their HD2 channel).

You might just want to try a radio and see if you can get the station(s) you hope to. You may be (as was I) pleasantly surprised!

 

[700WLW]

Take the word of one person, over many others, and be sorry, when you waste hundreds on an ugly, clunky HD radio, with ugly, clunky dipole antennas that need to be mounted in the attic, or rooftop:

"HD Radio Receiver Sensitivity"

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,51315.0.html

Remember, most of the HD stations can be heard on the Internet, without the need to buy expensive HD Radio hardware.

 

[hipporadio]

With HD radio is there any difference in signal travel? For example for a station that covers a 60 mile radius, is it the same if it were HD?

HD Radio/IBOC's coverage is about half of analog's coverage:

"HERE IS THE LATEST BUZZ ON HD RADIO, FROM ONE WHO BOUGHT ALL THE HYPE."

http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com/2006_10_01_worldsupercaster_archive.html

There ‘ya go again ‘700... Another “juicy” link! This time you’ve unearthed a Philly fan of our IBOC diatribe here. Did you click the “title” link and find the reference for the author’s examples and assertions? They point to a post I made here back on October 30th citing another’s identical local view detailing the defective and destructive nature of AM HD radio. All involved have a broad and extensive historical perspective on the stations and situations detailed. In the two months since that post NO CREDIBLE ENGINEER with any experience related to these examples has taken us to task for our observations.

As for FM IBOC—I will continue to hold that issue in abeyance... I’ll pull a “Kahn” here and say—let the marketplace rule (not that they aren’t well on their way to having done that already). “No gain—No pain”, but I cannot disagree with his coverage observations. Mine are similar (from FOUR locations) stationary and mobile. I’ll pass on the temptation to again flog the poor little BA Receptor, but will reiterate my mobile HD AM observations from earlier this past fall in metro Cincinnati—home to THREE stations broadcasting (I should say “making mischief) in IBOC.

You’re fondly acquainted with one—blowtorch 700 WLW... The others are 50kw 1530 WCKY and 5kw 1360 WSAI—actually a nice cross-section for the test. Using the $250 Alpine accessory HD radio module (more expensive than the top-selling head-unit it plugs into) on a new mobile installation, we drove the countryside plotting the HD coverage of each. With the obvious exception of WLW, coverage can be summed up in one word... ABISMAL. The later two stations were incapable of “hanging in” thru the full circle of that city’s suburban beltway (I-275). 50kw WCKY was not receivable in HD at I-275 and I-71 (near the affluent northeast suburb of Loveland), nor was it “locked” at I-74 and U.S. 52 just across the line in Indiana—about 20-miles from the 1530 site! Now, you can easily imagine the experience on 1360. That station’s use of IBOC defies ANY level of logic. Considering the legendary signal of WLW, its HD penetration was disappointing also. The 700 “buzz-saw” runs ferociously 150 miles from its Mason, OH site—but HD “peters” before that potent ameba crawls out a mere 50-miles!

worldsupercaster references the pre and current HD audio on 50kw 1070 WIBC Indianapolis in his post... The WIBC audio was legendary—in the Jim Lupas Super-CFL Chicago class going as far back as the 60s. It’s been termed “a miracle” considering that station’s very complex directional array. Today, I-Block has strangled those happy sidebands. WIBC has turned into an analog audio “notchmaster”... A narrowband shadow of its once-feisty self! For what... HD “coverage” that barely breaks out of its home county in some directions.

Despite 50kw at mid-band, WIBC’s HD coverage pales to WLW’s, yet both analog signals are significantly degraded (with on-channel “hiss”) on a growing class of decent AM “mid-fi” radios such as Sangean’s WR-1/WR-2 and 200-series “Walkmans”, C Crane’s 1kHz step-tuned CCRadio, and Tivoli Audio’s “Henry Kloss” M-1/2/3 and PAL. These receivers along with many in Ford and Chrysler products feature above-average AM audio demodulation characteristics that clearly illustrate the defective and destructive nature of IBOC carriers on existing analog services. So just when the consumer audio industry finally brings some decent-sounding AM radios to market... Along comes the IBOC science fair project!

And since the latest “dog to flog” here is internet radio... Here’s a sobering thought for you IBOCaholics... I have yet to hear my first AM HD signal that sounds as good as the 24kbps mono WMA stream from KOTZ radio—33-miles north of the Arctic Circle in the native Inupait village of Kotzebue, Alaska! www.kotz.org In fact, my typical recollection of sound quality similar to IBOC AM is RealAudio v2.0 circa 1996!

 

[Mike Walker]

Excellent point, 700. Why "take the word" of someone who actually owns the radio, took the time to set it up right, and enjoys it in a deep fringe location. What could I have been thinking?

And for "wasting" money on something which 700 says won't work, we all know that most retailers won't let you return products which don't perform properly. Wait, THEY WILL! So you're actually risking NOTHING by giving it a try. If it doesn't perform AS I SAY (when set up properly), I'll personally buy 700WLW lunch (laced with as little arsenic as possible. KIDDING!) ;D

"So what have you got to lose? Try my product!" Sorry...channeling the commercial from the guy on tv trying to sell those stupid computer lessons on cd. Why, "they play just like a vcr on your computer!"

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Anyone who actually believes that HD Radio will succeed by getting many typical consumers and listeners to become HD Radio DXers by frequently experimenting, tweaking, relocating, buying, and redirecting extra indoor and outdoor antennas, just to listen to a few intermittent HD Radio signals, is seriously in denial, and living in a world of their own imagination.
Most consumers and listeners won't buy into all that expense, inconvenience, extra wiring, and unsightly appearance, just to hear a few local HD radio streams, already available to them on their existing equipment along with thousands of other stations from all over the world, on the internet and by WI-FI, and without buying a problematic HD Radio.
We live in a world where listeners and consumers want and get instant gratification, not constant fooling around.
Turn it on, tune it in, and listen. No fiddling while dinner burns.
HD supporters campaign to turn typical listeners into HD radio DXers is destined to be a failure.

 

[700WLW]

Excellent point, 700. Why "take the word" of someone who actually owns the radio, took the time to set it up right, and enjoys it in a deep fringe location. What could I have been thinking?

And for "wasting" money on something which 700 says won't work, we all know that most retailers won't let you return products which don't perform properly. Wait, THEY WILL! So you're actually risking NOTHING by giving it a try. If it doesn't perform AS I SAY (when set up properly), I'll personally buy 700WLW lunch (laced with as little arsenic as possible. KIDDING!) ;D

"So what have you got to lose? Try my product!" Sorry...channeling the commercial from the guy on tv trying to sell those stupid computer lessons on cd. Why, "they play just like a vcr on your computer!"

So, you are claiming that these testimonials are not from people, who have set up their HD radios properly - these testmonials, were from "radio geeks", on "radio geek" sites ! Have you ever tried returning something to Radio Shack, with their unscrupulous jerk salesmen, who will gladly accept returned items, after they have substantially talked-down to you ? I guess, that is why, every time I used to buy something from RS, and requested new-in-the-box, they always lied, and gave me someone elses returned/used junk - it happened to me a while ago, when I bought an Eton E10 (shame on me), half-price for $50, but it turned out to be returned/defective, after I saw the display had a huge blemish inside !

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Excellent point, 700. Why "take the word" of someone who actually owns the radio, took the time to set it up right, and enjoys it in a deep fringe location. What could I have been thinking?

And for "wasting" money on something which 700 says won't work, we all know that most retailers won't let you return products which don't perform properly. Wait, THEY WILL! So you're actually risking NOTHING by giving it a try. If it doesn't perform AS I SAY (when set up properly), I'll personally buy 700WLW lunch (laced with as little arsenic as possible. KIDDING!) ;D

"So what have you got to lose? Try my product!" Sorry...channeling the commercial from the guy on tv trying to sell those stupid computer lessons on cd. Why, "they play just like a vcr on your computer!"

So, you are claiming that these testimonials are not from people, who have set up their HD radios properly - these testmonials, were from "radio geeks", on "radio geek" sites ! Have you ever tried returning something to Radio Shack, with their unscrupulous jerk salesmen, who will gladly accept returned items, after they have substantially talked-down to you ? I guess, that is why, every time I used to buy something from RS, and requested new-in-the-box, they always lied, and gave me someone elses returned/used junk - it happened to me a while ago, when I bought an Eton E10 (shame on me), half-price for $50, but it turned out to be returned/defective, after I saw the display had a huge blemish inside !

You just pointed out why good engineers and unscrupulous peddlers are, in fact, opposites. The worst nightmare of most retailers, is an honest, scrupulous, knowledgeable, sales person.

 

[Len14043]

Hipporadio Wrote: Considering the legendary signal of WLW, its HD penetration was disappointing also. The 700 “buzz-saw” runs ferociously 150 miles from its Mason, OH site—but HD “peters” before that potent ameba crawls out a mere 50-miles!

Reply: I recently traveled north on I-71 and WLW's digital signal was solid until Mansfield (135 miles)and intermittent until Ashland(155 miles). Of course you are going to hear the digital sidebands 150 miles out from the tower. WJR's digital signal was solid from Columbus, OH to Erie, PA.

Hipporadio Wrote: Despite 50kw at mid-band, WIBC’s HD coverage pales to WLW’s, yet both analog signals are significantly degraded (with on-channel “hiss”) on a growing class of decent AM “mid-fi” radios such as Sangean’s WR-1/WR-2 and 200-series “Walkmans”, C Crane’s 1kHz step-tuned CCRadio, and Tivoli Audio’s “Henry Kloss” M-1/2/3 and PAL.

Reply: I own a CC radio and don't hear hiss on any of the IBOC stations. Same with my car radios.

 

[hipporadio]

Hipporadio Wrote: Considering the legendary signal of WLW, its HD penetration was disappointing also...

Reply: I recently traveled north on I-71 and WLW's digital signal was solid until Mansfield (135 miles)and intermittent until Ashland(155 miles). Of course you are going to hear the digital sidebands 150 miles out from the tower. WJR's digital signal was solid from Columbus, OH to Erie, PA.

Len... I would be interested in knowing what HD-capable receiver you have installed in your car that can lock onto the WLW HD signal halfway between Columbus and Cleveland in Mansfield. The system I detailed in my prior post used to evaluate HD AM coverage of the three Cincy stations was a top-rated Alpine CDA-9856 HD/XM-ready in dash unit with the Alpine TUA-T500HD AM/FM HD tuner (a $250 add-on). They were purchased and professionally installed by Ovation--a VERY high-end service-oriented electronics dealer in Loveland, OH this past August. The HD accessory was special-ordered and the first installed by that store, so they (also) were highly interested in our observations... The mobile evaluation WAS LIMITED TO THE CINCY METRO. Only on a few occasions did we venture beyond the I-275 loop, and I recall reporting that WLW's HD was solid within that area--the other two stations faired poorly. Ultimately that customer returned the HD tuner module to Ovation for a refund due to poor HD reception on BOTH AM and FM.

More distant observations (which were stationary in nature) were made with a Boston Acoustics HD Receptor. Outside the Cincinnnati metro, WLW's HD signal DID NOT easily "lock" (or attempt to "lock" at all) at residences in the following locations:

Fairborn, OH (NE Dayton) near I-675 and Hy 844
Columbus, OH east of I-270 off Morse Rd near Easton
Springfield, OH east of Hy 4 near the Brown Reservoir
Richmond, IN I-70/US-40 area near Richmond Square Mall
Greenwood, IN (far south Indianapolis) west of US-31 off Worthsville Rd
Madison, IN downtown along Hy 56 [also, 840 WHAS Louisville HD detected but failed to "lock" ]
Lexington, KY I-75/Man-O-War area near Hamburg Pavilion [no WHAS HD detected here]
Owenton, KY south off US-127 near Elmer Davis Lake [WHAS HD detected but failed to "lock"]

Hipporadio Wrote: ...both analog signals are significantly degraded (with on-channel “hiss”) on a growing class of decent AM “mid-fi” radios...

Reply: I own a CC radio and don't hear hiss on any of the IBOC stations. Same with my car radios.

I also own a C Crane CCRadio Plus, and routinely use that radio's flexible 1kHz step tuning on stronger stations to move off-center-carrier to affect a virtual widening of demodulated bandwidth. The CCRadio when tuned to carrier is VERY narrow (remember Crane designed it to optimize VOICE FREQUENCIES)... This narrow I.F. bandwidth would not allow "hiss" to be reproduced under those circumstances. Mistune by +/-2kHz to "open it up" and you will very clearly hear the infamous IBOC "hiss" in the background.

Back in 2004, 1530 (then WSAI) began transmitting in HD during their "RealOldies" format period. At that time I was able to listen during the day on an Icom R71A AM/SWL reciever using the C Crane Twin-Coil Ferrite Active Antenna. I had installed a third accessory Collins "wide" 14kHz (+/- 7kHz from carrier) I.F. filter for quality AM listening. A powered Fostex speaker was used as a monitor. The audio quality of moderate-to-strong stations was well beyond the usual. WSAI's music format sounded EXCEPTIONAL... That is--until the IBOC was fired up. The degradation was immediately apparent--and very dissappointing. Wide I.F. filters receiving a quality signal don't lie!

The new Sangean WR-2 premium table radio features an I.F. filter that is much wider than typical and appears to pass audio beyond 5kHz with a more "mellow" roll-off. Again, the "hiss" on IBOC stations is apparent.

 

[Len14043]

Hipporadio,
I have a JVC HDR radio. When I traveled up I-71, WLW's signal was generally solid until Mansfield, but the HD signal occasionally dropped out when traveling under power lines, passing semi-trucks or going under bridges. For ideal reception, the AM band needs to be free from engine noise. Prior to installing the radio, I grounded the antenna mast and changed my spark plugs and wires. Traveling up the interstate is probably the best condition you will encounter for reception. Once you leave the interstate and get into a town near power lines ond other sources of interference, all you can hear is degraded analog if you are more than 80 or so miles from WLW's tower. You are correct in that is is possible to lose their signal within 50 miles of the tower. For instance, if you go to Dayton and get under the cables which supply power to their electric bus system, all AM reception is impossible - including local WHIO 1290.

Perhaps the JVC radio is superior to the others. If you read the customer reviews on the Crutchfield site, most of them are positive for that radio.

As you mentioned, reception inside homes and buildings will be more difficult. When I pull into my garage, the Dayton HD stations are gone. IMHO, I see HD radio as a workable system in cars for FM, but not for homes unless you are a radio geek willing to install a special antenna.

With regards to the hiss, perhaps I can't hear it because I am over 50 years old. When you are over 40 or so, your hearing rolls of at about 8000 Hz.

Although I support HD radio, I agree with most of the posters here that it has problems. However, the all-digital mode would be superior and the hybrid mode, with all its problems, is probably the best way to get there.

 

[700WLW]

Although I support HD radio, I agree with most of the posters here that it has problems. However, the all-digital mode would be superior and the hybrid mode, with all its problems, is probably the best way to get there.

Good luck ever turning off analog - just as in Canada and the UK, there is virtually no public interest in digital radio.

 

[Mike Walker]

No public interest in digital radios? Are the people on this board not members of the public? What are we discussing, sewing tips?

 

[700WLW]

No public interest in digital radios? Are the people on this board not members of the public? What are we discussing, sewing tips?

"Digital Radio in Canada"

"The Commission is very concerned about the stalled DRB transition. Roughly 15 of the 76 authorized stations (including the digital-only operation in Toronto) are not on the air. Some stations that once operated have since ceased operations. Few recievers have been sold, and there is no interest in expanding DRB service beyond the six cities where it exists. Since DRB transmitters have only been built in the largest cities, motorists travelling between Quebec and Windsor, between Calgary and Edmonton, or between Vancouver and south-central British Columbia lose DRB reception. As a result, automakers have switched their support from terrestrial DRB to XM/Sirius satellite radio."

http://americanbandscan.blogspot.com/2006/12/digital-radio-in-canada.html

Same thing, is going on in the UK and USA, with few receivers sold and almost total public apathy towards digital radio - maybe, it's the lousy CONTENT !

 

[hipporadio]

Hipporadio,
I have a JVC HDR radio. When I traveled up I-71, WLW's signal was generally solid until Mansfield, but the HD signal occasionally dropped out when traveling under power lines, passing semi-trucks or going under bridges. For ideal reception, the AM band needs to be free from engine noise. Prior to installing the radio, I grounded the antenna mast and changed my spark plugs and wires...

I’ve been considering buying the JVC—it is frequently on sale at Crutchfield. I have a mid-90s GMC Jimmy that I keep around for canoe and camping treks. The original Delco has gone bad and I need another, but this vehicle presents TONS of radio noise, and interference from its onboard computer unless the ignition switch is in “accessory-only”. Then, the “nature” of radio changes dramatically for the better!

Many consumers roam off to Best Buy and accept “free installation” which pales to the attention you paid in your auto-sound installation. I have tried for many years to nuke the noise in my GTC Jimmy, but have been UNSUCESSFUL! I was willing to “pay”—but “no play”.

So Len... ‘Like a few days in the South Carolina LowCountry... You can tame the Jimmy ‘n have a great time! Anticipate the parts in advance ‘cause Radio Shack has digressed to a cell-phone kiosk!

As you mentioned, reception inside homes and buildings will be more difficult. When I pull into my garage, the Dayton HD stations are gone. IMHO, I see HD radio as a workable system in cars for FM, but not for homes unless you are a radio geek willing to install a special antenna.

Len, for over 30-years we BOTH have known this to be a problem. Many in our generation DEPENDED upon and LOVED “radio”—ask me about making a homemade "FM antenna" from coat hangers, then climbing the 40-foot TV tower in the Winter of 1970 with a "twin-lead" to connect to the old McIntosh 1958 FM reciever my Grand-Pa passed on to me to snag 93.1-WNAP-Indianapolis... WE found creative ways of bettering reception—I’m afraid that is no longer the case—and I REALLY REGRET THAT!

With regards to the hiss, perhaps I can't hear it because I am over 50 years old. When you are over 40 or so, your hearing rolls of at about 8000 Hz.

Hey Len—I hear you! In the early 80s—I was insufferable as an audiophile... but that has faded as I entered my 40s—I can STILL hear my fair share of “highs”—at least enough to comment on this “AM HD” thing... But I’d now longer rate $5000 for Stereo Review! But a really nice wooden table radio with a good AM section is nice—I feel well within my “element” there!

Although I support HD radio, I agree with most of the posters here that it has problems.

IT DOES... There a many AM stations (usually in smaller markets) that have (finally) replaced their transmitters with “state-of-the-art” analog transmission hardware... They sound AWESOME—and near-FM in quality on selected receivers. We need a “kick in ‘da butt to bring in our think’in”.