http://www.radioworld.com/article/hd-radio-to-be-standard-on-cadillac-cue---/50814
another sign of HD radios failure. Any Day now.
another sign of HD radios failure. Any Day now.
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HD Radio to be Standard on Cadillac CUE
- Thread starter R.F. Burns
- Start date
Yeah HD Radio is so hot that iBiquity's employees are dancing all the way to the unemployment line.
http://www.hometownannapolis.com/news/top/2011/12/04-26/Getting-By-Losing-the-American-Dream.html
http://www.hometownannapolis.com/news/top/2011/12/04-26/Getting-By-Losing-the-American-Dream.html
Welcome back, RF! Good to hear from you again!
I'll say this about you - you ARE loyal, at least when it comes to your pet IBOC.
There's no question that Cadillac buyers in 2012 will be joining the happy throngs of BMW, Rolls-Royce and Mercedes-Benz owners who fit in one of these categories:
(a) They are oblivious to the presence of HD Radio in their vehicles;
(b) They are aware of HD and have taken the car back to the dealer to complain of reception
faults like constant mode-flipping, weak signals, noise, echoing from local stations' failure
to keep analog and digital in time sync, etc. In these cases their "awareness" extends as
far as seeking help in defeating it/locking it out so they can restore quality analog reception;
(c) They are one of about three people enjoying HD-AM on the average one operating station
per STATE with 24-7 IBOC.
HD Radio is starting to resemble Arm & Hammer Baking Soda in that most of the products' consumers have no clue about its original purpose. Most people think baking soda is for deodorizing refrigerators and disposals, not cooking.
I'll say this about you - you ARE loyal, at least when it comes to your pet IBOC.
There's no question that Cadillac buyers in 2012 will be joining the happy throngs of BMW, Rolls-Royce and Mercedes-Benz owners who fit in one of these categories:
(a) They are oblivious to the presence of HD Radio in their vehicles;
(b) They are aware of HD and have taken the car back to the dealer to complain of reception
faults like constant mode-flipping, weak signals, noise, echoing from local stations' failure
to keep analog and digital in time sync, etc. In these cases their "awareness" extends as
far as seeking help in defeating it/locking it out so they can restore quality analog reception;
(c) They are one of about three people enjoying HD-AM on the average one operating station
per STATE with 24-7 IBOC.
HD Radio is starting to resemble Arm & Hammer Baking Soda in that most of the products' consumers have no clue about its original purpose. Most people think baking soda is for deodorizing refrigerators and disposals, not cooking.
Wait! Arm and Hammer baking soda isn't to unstink the refridge? Why does the wifeage have three boxes of it in there? I'm going to tell her you said that and I would suggest getting your phone number changed.
Savage said:
(a) is countered by getting the product into consumers' hands, (b) is not the radio's fault but the radio station's in most cases and (c) fails to account for the many FM HD stations with subchannels out there that are either bringing new formats or bringing AM to FM via HD, into the 21st century.
(a) A billion dollars of airtime plus relentless print hype have been expended on "getting HD Radio into consumers' hands." How else would you suggest we "get them" there? At gunpoint??
(b) No, it's NOT "the radio's fault." It's the SYSTEM'S fault - or, more precisely, the developers' fault for cobbling a half-a$$ed solution and forcing it on the marketplace. HD Radio isn't ready for prime time. It. Doesn't. Work. Well. Enough.
(c) "Many" AM stations are entering the 21st century via HD-FM? How many? Maybe 20? Many more AMs are "entering" via FM simulcasts either on full-power or translator stations. You know: ANALOG FM.
Sheesh. I mean, come on already.
(b) No, it's NOT "the radio's fault." It's the SYSTEM'S fault - or, more precisely, the developers' fault for cobbling a half-a$$ed solution and forcing it on the marketplace. HD Radio isn't ready for prime time. It. Doesn't. Work. Well. Enough.
(c) "Many" AM stations are entering the 21st century via HD-FM? How many? Maybe 20? Many more AMs are "entering" via FM simulcasts either on full-power or translator stations. You know: ANALOG FM.
Sheesh. I mean, come on already.
R.F. Burns said:
That same radio will also feature XM, as well as Internet connectivity with a Pandora app. If it is anything like the factory radio on my 2012 Buick it will also have a hard drive where you can store your own music, a USB stick connection to play content from a thumb drive and an Aux Input for your ipod or other device. HD may be on board, but will anybody listen with all those other choices? Maybe, maybe not.
Well, I've always thought the way to achieve (a) was a lot less advertising on stations and a lot more partnering with radio manufacturers and automakers to get HD in the radios first.
As for (b), the system works on FM for most of the country, at least from what I've heard. It's not perfect, but then neither is FM stereo, yet we put up with its foibles (mainly by having the car stereo blend completely to mono 99% of the time.)
Yes, maybe 20 or so on HD There's at least four or five in Alabama alone. Even if it's only 20, that's 20 more that probably can't find a translator to hop on, especially now that the FCC has put the brakes on the multi-hop process people were using to move in translators from far away. I bet I have a half dozen "orphaned" translators in my state now that are stuck in the middle of nowhere, once destined for distant AM stations.
Short of blowing up a full power FM, the path to AM on analog FM is more difficult now than before.
As for (b), the system works on FM for most of the country, at least from what I've heard. It's not perfect, but then neither is FM stereo, yet we put up with its foibles (mainly by having the car stereo blend completely to mono 99% of the time.)
Yes, maybe 20 or so on HD There's at least four or five in Alabama alone. Even if it's only 20, that's 20 more that probably can't find a translator to hop on, especially now that the FCC has put the brakes on the multi-hop process people were using to move in translators from far away. I bet I have a half dozen "orphaned" translators in my state now that are stuck in the middle of nowhere, once destined for distant AM stations.
Short of blowing up a full power FM, the path to AM on analog FM is more difficult now than before.
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
Another splendid victory for iBiquity's high pressure sales team. Credit where credit is due - if they can high pressure sell this kludged up mess, they will have no trouble getting a sales job elsewhere when this system comes crashing down.
If the radio has XM and Pandora as well, the average user will probably never use the radio, unless they have a niche'y format they like on an HD-2.
Due to ineffective marketing, 99% of the users will have no idea HD is even in their radio, what it is for, and how to use it. It probably will have about the same consumer awareness as AM stereo. The user might have a faint awareness that digital sounds different, but frequent drop outs will make them annoyed and think the radio is defective. If they are aware enough to use HD-2, when it drops to the station's main format or goes silent, they will be intensely annoyed to the point of using satellite or something else. Nobody tolerates unreliability, which is the main feature of this kludgey system.
I have two HD-2 channels I might be interested in. If I had a car radio that is HD enabled, fine. But if there are dropouts - I have absolutely no interest in the stations main analog format. None at all. And there are only two. Give me satellite where I can channel hop dozens of times to find a song I want. There will never be enough HD-2's to interest me, and given the sorry selection of HD-1 formats, forget radio around here.
If I go into a car dealership - the radio is an afterthought. I am much more interested in an in car DVD player, integrated satellite and streaming. If there is a choice - either HD or satellite, the satellite wins every time. HD-2's? Nice to have, but I wouldn't pay $20 for an HD enabled radio. I suspect even knowledgeable consumers feel the same way.
If the radio has XM and Pandora as well, the average user will probably never use the radio, unless they have a niche'y format they like on an HD-2.
Due to ineffective marketing, 99% of the users will have no idea HD is even in their radio, what it is for, and how to use it. It probably will have about the same consumer awareness as AM stereo. The user might have a faint awareness that digital sounds different, but frequent drop outs will make them annoyed and think the radio is defective. If they are aware enough to use HD-2, when it drops to the station's main format or goes silent, they will be intensely annoyed to the point of using satellite or something else. Nobody tolerates unreliability, which is the main feature of this kludgey system.
I have two HD-2 channels I might be interested in. If I had a car radio that is HD enabled, fine. But if there are dropouts - I have absolutely no interest in the stations main analog format. None at all. And there are only two. Give me satellite where I can channel hop dozens of times to find a song I want. There will never be enough HD-2's to interest me, and given the sorry selection of HD-1 formats, forget radio around here.
If I go into a car dealership - the radio is an afterthought. I am much more interested in an in car DVD player, integrated satellite and streaming. If there is a choice - either HD or satellite, the satellite wins every time. HD-2's? Nice to have, but I wouldn't pay $20 for an HD enabled radio. I suspect even knowledgeable consumers feel the same way.
Chuck said:
I just bought a 2012 VW Jetta Sportswagon. It's a base model and does not have HD Radio. That's a $2800.00 option along with sunroof, alloy wheels and interior package. But what my Jetta wagon does have is Bluetooth connectivity. So if I have an Android or iPhone I can wirelessly access my music library along with thousands of internet stations and make phone calls. And apparently, HD Radio is an option and not standard equipment on most cars that offer it.
So, in my opinion, unless HD Radio is standard equipment in all car models, including the base models, it has already lost the dash wars--in this case to Bluetooth and smartphones.
I'm car shopping, specifically for the new 2012 Subaru Impreza. The deal on the HD radio is similar to what Carmine writes about in the 2012 VW.
There are three trim levels of the Impreza sedan, each with its own audio system. HD is only available in the most expensive system. IF you can get a car with just the radio upgrade, it's $1,000 extra, because it's married to the Nav system. Like the VW, it's more likely you'll have to get this radio in a package that includes alloy wheels and a sunroof, neither of which I want.
So here is the decision: Do I pay $1,000 more for an audio system just because I want HD? Subaru's Nav system, as is the case with many built-in ones, is overly expensive and doesn't get good reviews. I can get my own brand new Garmin for under $250, and it gets hugely better reviews.
I was interested in HD radio, because I hate the fact that Philadelphia's all-news KYW has problems on AM in many parts of the metro due to electrical and building interference, and it's signal is weak into the northeast suburbs. HD would allow me to listen on FM. But, given the way Subaru has packaged this, I've decided to go with the middle level radio which will give me some nice extras without the $1,000 cost.
If this is an example of how they're "getting HD into cars," then they're failing. EVERY radio for Subaru comes with the ability to receive Sirius/XM.
There are three trim levels of the Impreza sedan, each with its own audio system. HD is only available in the most expensive system. IF you can get a car with just the radio upgrade, it's $1,000 extra, because it's married to the Nav system. Like the VW, it's more likely you'll have to get this radio in a package that includes alloy wheels and a sunroof, neither of which I want.
So here is the decision: Do I pay $1,000 more for an audio system just because I want HD? Subaru's Nav system, as is the case with many built-in ones, is overly expensive and doesn't get good reviews. I can get my own brand new Garmin for under $250, and it gets hugely better reviews.
I was interested in HD radio, because I hate the fact that Philadelphia's all-news KYW has problems on AM in many parts of the metro due to electrical and building interference, and it's signal is weak into the northeast suburbs. HD would allow me to listen on FM. But, given the way Subaru has packaged this, I've decided to go with the middle level radio which will give me some nice extras without the $1,000 cost.
If this is an example of how they're "getting HD into cars," then they're failing. EVERY radio for Subaru comes with the ability to receive Sirius/XM.
Well, Zach, here's where I think we are. And I'm far from alone on this. If I were a bettin' man I'd say most of the industry pretty much feels the same - especially considering the current fate of HD. Open your eyes and look around.
Ten years of big bucks, muscular lobbying of a clueless FCC and all kinds of butchers' thumb-on-the-marketplace-scale (buying NPR Labs is but one example) have failed to move the needle for HD. Supposedly the Big Smart Guys With All The Answers were going to assure the success of this thing, and it's been a wall-to-wall mess from Day One. If there's any movement (hype aside) it's backward, not forward. If it was going to work, it would have long ago. Like FIVE years ago.
We can debate AM's future (public comments like nitwittery from David Fields are certainly no help) but one thing we can be fairly certain of: trying to revive AM by simulcasting its products on a service with an even SMALLER audience isn't going to accomplish anything.
The four or five HD enthusiasts who hang out here and send drool-o-grams to a desperately willing Radio World (where they know very well they have picked the wrong horses with HD) are certainly entitled to their opinions. If you guys insist on standing on your head and accusing the rest of radio that we've got everything upside down -- well, enjoy, and don't get too dizzy.
Ten years of big bucks, muscular lobbying of a clueless FCC and all kinds of butchers' thumb-on-the-marketplace-scale (buying NPR Labs is but one example) have failed to move the needle for HD. Supposedly the Big Smart Guys With All The Answers were going to assure the success of this thing, and it's been a wall-to-wall mess from Day One. If there's any movement (hype aside) it's backward, not forward. If it was going to work, it would have long ago. Like FIVE years ago.
We can debate AM's future (public comments like nitwittery from David Fields are certainly no help) but one thing we can be fairly certain of: trying to revive AM by simulcasting its products on a service with an even SMALLER audience isn't going to accomplish anything.
The four or five HD enthusiasts who hang out here and send drool-o-grams to a desperately willing Radio World (where they know very well they have picked the wrong horses with HD) are certainly entitled to their opinions. If you guys insist on standing on your head and accusing the rest of radio that we've got everything upside down -- well, enjoy, and don't get too dizzy.
By the way, same deal in most Toyotas. You can get HD Radio, but only as an option added to the top trim level. We just bought a Highlander SUV in the middle trim level that was loaded with options; despite this, I couldn't get HD Radio even if I wanted to pay for it. I would have had to pay another $5000 for the Limited, then $1200 on top of that for the system with the HD Radio.
As our new car is pretty decked out already (including the aforementioned Bluetooth), I didn't see the need to increase the price by another 15% or so!
As our new car is pretty decked out already (including the aforementioned Bluetooth), I didn't see the need to increase the price by another 15% or so!
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
mmnassour said:
These stories of pricing are horrific - to me "standard" means it is installed in every single car, even in the low end models. I think - AM stereo was truly standard. No additional cost.
As our new car is pretty decked out already (including the aforementioned Bluetooth), I didn't see the need to increase the price by another 15% or so!
[/quote]
Sounds like Toyota's been taking pricing tips from iBiquity!
[/quote]
These stories of pricing are horrific - to me "standard" means it is installed in every single car, even in the low end models. I think - AM stereo was truly standard. No additional cost.
It really grates me to hear people complain about the availability of HD radios when the technology, in many ways, parallels the acceptance of FM and color television. They conveniently forget the FM was a higher priced option in the early 70's on most cars and that color television didn't really become mainstream until RCA decided to accept reduced patent royalties so the price and availability of sets came down.
Some autos may have had AM stereo "standard" but the developers of the systems expected a return on investment. That return was generally the broadcast equipment manufactures paying royalties to the developers and passing them on as increased costs to the stations purchasing the equipment although Motorola did have royalties on their stereo decoder ICs for some time.
You want digital radio to be free for anyone to build transmitters and receivers without the developers being able to get a return on investment?
Bob
How many stations are operating in AM stereo now? They are free to install the equipment
[/quote]
[/quote]
Sounds like Toyota's been taking pricing tips from iBiquity!
[/quote]
These stories of pricing are horrific - to me "standard" means it is installed in every single car, even in the low end models. I think - AM stereo was truly standard. No additional cost.
It really grates me to hear people complain about the availability of HD radios when the technology, in many ways, parallels the acceptance of FM and color television. They conveniently forget the FM was a higher priced option in the early 70's on most cars and that color television didn't really become mainstream until RCA decided to accept reduced patent royalties so the price and availability of sets came down.
Some autos may have had AM stereo "standard" but the developers of the systems expected a return on investment. That return was generally the broadcast equipment manufactures paying royalties to the developers and passing them on as increased costs to the stations purchasing the equipment although Motorola did have royalties on their stereo decoder ICs for some time.
You want digital radio to be free for anyone to build transmitters and receivers without the developers being able to get a return on investment?
Bob
How many stations are operating in AM stereo now? They are free to install the equipment
[/quote]
The developers deserve a chance to get their investment back. That's not the same as "getting their investment back." This is a distinction lost on many defenders of HD Radio, if not most.
One of the major problems with acceptance of this technology (other than that fact that it works like crap in most real-world conditions and causes unacceptable interference, etc., etc.) is the greedy impatience of its perpetrators. This caused unrealistic expectations about ROI, inflating the cost of entry-level equipment and receivers to a ridiculous level. As has been seen this factor was myopic and self-defeating.
One of the major problems with acceptance of this technology (other than that fact that it works like crap in most real-world conditions and causes unacceptable interference, etc., etc.) is the greedy impatience of its perpetrators. This caused unrealistic expectations about ROI, inflating the cost of entry-level equipment and receivers to a ridiculous level. As has been seen this factor was myopic and self-defeating.
rbrucecarter5 said:
But did anyone beyond maybe Chrysler actually aggressively roll out AM stereo in their car radios?
I seem to recall Ford and Toyota both only offered AM stereo on one model of radio, usually the low end or mid-level, never on the premium deck. My parents went through plenty of Toyotas in the 80s and the only one with AM stereo was one with the "mid-level" cassette deck. The premium systems never had it.
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