HD Radio

[rbrucecarter5]

>>>> If you wanted FM Stereo, it was available, but at an extra charge that a lot of people declined at purchase.Because all that was on FM was "beautiful music" and deep throated DJ's>>>>> I think it was around 1972 or 73 when local FM stations would offer promotions with an adapter you could purchase to allow you to listen to FM Mono through your >>>>>> AM car radio. I had one of those adapters in my car for a couple of years.Now it is little modulators - meant for iPods that put stereo music through your FM stereo radio. Only - I used mine for AM stereo from an SRF-A1 until 620 and 770 went IBOC. Now, I use it for my portable DVD player. It makes movies sure sound nice!>>>>>> In the mid to late 60s and very early 70s, your average middle class family had an FM Stereo inside the home -- but never really listened to it. I made the switch in the early 70's, when I figured out FM could go 300 miles and Dallas stations were listenable in West Texas with a big antenna and good tuner.>>>>>, "Today will be my last day on KLIF."That was frustrating, because 300 mile reception in cars was not possible. I was stuck with KLIF, and their signal was not good in Midland. Still, there were already rumors of a frequency swap with 570, and they had a fairly good signal in Midland.>>>>> Despite the turnover, and the fact that the station was obviously suffering, it wasn't until the new "Z-97" FM went commercial free for several weeks, Was that the KWXI era? We got them on cable, but cable FM had a buzz on it. It was actually better with an antenna, but 300 mile FM DX is characterized by deep fades.>>>> Recently, I've been noticing some new car commercials where the manufacturers are throwing in a Sirius satellite radio receiver with a free three year subscription.This is the death blow to IBOC in cars. Everybody will go for satellite - better selection. Removing the subscription fee is the nail in the coffin. I don't like paying for satellite, but if it was free, I would listen.>>>>As for HD Radio, it looks to me like it's going to go the way of AM Stereo... Actually - if AM IBOC isn't approved at night, C-Quam would make sense for desperate broadcasters wanting the audio quality 24/7. IBOC day, C-Quam night is probably viable. More work for receiver manufacturers and broadcast engineers, but it makes some sense. >>>>> The only thing that could save HD Radio is if it becomes standard on new cars at no additional charge -- and I doubt that is going to happen...I'd like to see a head unit that broadcasts over an FM modulator - that way I could get the HD-2 on FM and somewhat improved AM, although the Ibiquity sample has those annoying phase shifts typical of streaming audio. I'd rather have 10 kHz C-Quam that doesn't have those phase shifts than 15 kHz IBOC that does have them. After a few minutes, streaming audio even on broadband causes listener fatigue because of the phase shifts. They are irritating. And the reason nobody likes music on shortwave, too.[/quote]

 

[DoogieDown1]

I'd rather have 10 kHz C-Quam that doesn't have those phase shifts than 15 kHz IBOC that does have them.

Me, too. And, since IBOC is allowed 15 kHz, imagine C-quam being given that same 15 kHz...! Interestingly, the first line of Visteon HD receivers made for Ford boasted IBOC and C-quam. I'm against IBOC for AM, but the carrot of hi-fi C-quam at night wouldn't be too bad. Plus, hi-fi AM at night would give wooden tube radio enthusiasts some nice evening listening.And before I hear from posters saying that wooden tube radio enthusiasts are a minority, go take a look at the premium prices those radios fetch on eBay. The demand is sky high. Actually, I've refinished a couple of those radios, and the first question I always get is: "Does it work?" Naturally, people want to hear the smooth sound of an old wooden radio...

 

[boardopp]

so how much of the analog signal is lost when going to IBOC?some stations i've noticed a drop not only in sound quality, but in signal strength too. Or am I imagining things?

 

[mikl73]

my #2 xm receiver was 40 bucks and works everywhereits portable with a line out or fm to listeni upgraded my main home system when to go with high def tv and the tuner just so happend to have xm build in with addition of the xm antennagranted sat. radio sounds worse than almost every streaming site i listen towhen hd radios cost 40 bucks and the signal issues are dealt with more people will upgradeseems retail could care less and isnt pushing them too much.. i keep reading about people looking at stores and the ones that have radios dont have them where you could even demo.. either not hooked up or no antennas etc.i'm for more choices but someones getting rich and keeping most people from even being intrested.at this point i dont know a single person with hd radioi know a hand full with high def tv'sand many with either xm or sirrus

 

[TheRover]

The only way HD Radio is ever going to catch on is if the auto manufacturers begin to offer it standard with a new car purchase.I'm old enough to remember the 1960s, when AM radio was king. In the early to mid 1960s, new cars would come standard with an AM radio. If you wanted FM Stereo, it was available, but at an extra charge that a lot of people declined at purchase.By the late 60s to early 70s, AM / FM Stereo radios became standard on new cars, and it was a few dollars extra if you wanted an 8-track -- and then a stereo cassette as we got into the mid to late 1970s.I think it was around 1972 or 73 when local FM stations would offer promotions with an adapter you could purchase to allow you to listen to FM Mono through your AM car radio. I had one of those adapters in my car for a couple of years.

I sought out an FM/Cassette Player for my car in 1972, and I was rewarded with what I needed with an underdash model from Radio Shack ! It was manual dial FM, but with great FM Rock stations back then.... it was worth the effort to tune in 102 to hear --only-- great rock songs.... without the tremendous filler and the tight playlists of "today's" rock stations ! ! !After listening to "Stereo" FM..... I never went back to KFJZ-AM. "Dazed And Confused" on AM and the same on FM.... Just no comparision !!

 

[rbrucecarter5]

>>>> And before I hear from posters saying that wooden tube radio enthusiasts are a minority, go take a look at the premium prices those radios fetch on eBay. The >>>>demand is sky high. I kind of distance myself from the topic of old tube radios. The IBOC religious zealots are quick to jump on that - read the article about the warm glow of the tube in Radio World. We can make the point about wideband AM without nostalgia, because virtually every AM radio made in the last couple of years IS broadband. This was not intentional, or an effort to improve sound quality. It is a cost cutting measure - GONE are the three IF transformers, in their place one ceramic filter, the cheaper the better. My daughter's radio wouldn't get a local 620 because of crosstalk from a local 660. That is more than +/-40 kHz bandwidth! One IC, ferrite bar, tuning cap, one ceramic filter AM, one FM plus a discriminator coil for FM - that's the whole AM FM tuner. Marvel of cost cutting! And - IBOC self jams on it. Unless you tune exactly center frequency on an IBOC - you hear hiss. And you have a lot of trouble tuning center band, they got rid of the spring on the tuning linkage! There is a horrible lash! No warm glow of tubes, but you hook up a pair of headphones or run it through a stereo - the wideband AM sounds fantastic on non-IBOC stations!

 

[DoogieDown1]

I kind of distance myself from the topic of old tube radios. The IBOC religious zealots are quick to jump on that - read the article about the warm glow of the tube in Radio World. We can make the point about wideband AM without nostalgia, because virtually every AM radio made in the last couple of years IS broadband.

Bruce, Bruce, Bruce... and your Web site says you're the proud owner of a vintage Fisher AM-80. 8)But, seriously, I understand your point. And I would never make the interests of tube enthusiasts the center of my anti-IBOC-on-AM argument. But I do think it's worth mentioning to people that IBOC will forever ruin the AM dial for wooden tube radios (most of which don't have narrow/wide toggles).

 

[boardopp]

so how much of the analog signal is lost when going to IBOC?some stations i've noticed a drop not only in sound quality, but in signal strength too. Or am I imagining things?

i see a lot of people throwing gear talk and whatnot around... is anyone qualified to answer my basic question?

 

[DoogieDown1]

so how much of the analog signal is lost when going to IBOC?some stations i've noticed a drop not only in sound quality, but in signal strength too. Or am I imagining things?i see a lot of people throwing gear talk and whatnot around... is anyone qualified to answer my basic question?

In the case of an AM IBOC station, when you turn on the digital data streams, you go from having 10 kHz of available analog audio down to roughly 4.5 kHz (and maybe lower). 10 kHz can sound pretty good. But 4.5 kHz sounds like a telephone call. It really does. When you listen to a narrow bandwidth signal, let's say a talk station's, you won't always be able to tell the difference between who's in the studio and who's on the phone.

 

[boardopp]

so how much of the analog signal is lost when going to IBOC?some stations i've noticed a drop not only in sound quality, but in signal strength too. Or am I imagining things?i see a lot of people throwing gear talk and whatnot around... is anyone qualified to answer my basic question?

In the case of an AM IBOC station, when you turn on the digital data streams, you go from having 10 kHz of available analog audio down to roughly 4.5 kHz (and maybe lower). 10 kHz can sound pretty good. But 4.5 kHz sounds like a telephone call. It really does. When you listen to a narrow bandwidth signal, let's say a talk station's, you won't always be able to tell the difference between who's in the studio and who's on the phone.

thanks! what about with FM? I work in an office building (high-rise) and have noticed I can't get a lot of the stations anymore.

 

[DoogieDown1]

thanks! what about with FM? I work in an office building (high-rise) and have noticed I can't get a lot of the stations anymore.

I think Bruce is the guy to ask about FM. I've seen his posts on that subject on RadioInfo's HD Radio board...I'm always well within the coverage areas of the various FM's a listen to here in Dallas, so I haven't noticed any weakness in signal strength.

 

[boardopp]

I think Bruce is the guy to ask about FM. I've seen his posts on that subject on RadioInfo's HD Radio board...I'm always well within the coverage areas of the various FM's a listen to here in Dallas, so I haven't noticed any weakness in signal strength.

I'm in North Dallas... of course, it could just be the metal plate in my head.