HD Recievers for Component Systems

[Savage]

HD Radio proponents should carefully avoid use of the word "buzz." It's not good salesmanship.... :

 

[Carmine5]

Although my goof on my local Radio Shack experience was just for a cheap laugh, the issue is real. If HD Radio is going to help the industry in any way it has to be as easy to receive and as reliable as any analog radio.

I think it's a safe bet to say that almost no one will make a conscious effort to buy an HD Radio. But I also think it's safe to say that HD Radio will soon be appearing in a wide range of products with consumers not even realizing they have it.

Now if the only experience consumers are having is frustration (instead of pristine audio) as they attempt to hear their favorite programs, how long do you think they will persevere with radio before they give up and switch to their iPods or something else?

Months earlier I provided a link to a report that listed the delay differences between the analog and digital signals of San Diego area stations. In many cases the difference was not just milliseconds but seconds. And I'm sure this is not an isolated problem. As HD Radios blend back and forth from digital to analog/analog to digital due to poor signal strength, how long do you think consumers will tolerate the jarring experience of such program discontinuity?

I think it's abundantly clear to a lot of knowledgeable people that HD Radio is a rush to market, not ready for prime time technology that could end up doing more harm to rather than helping an already battered industry.

BTW, on the Los Angeles board listeners are commenting on how good KFI 640 has been sounding of late. It's true. The audio has a nice, sweet fullness to it. In addition to a new plant and tower, the station has also switched off its HD equipment. Now what does that tell you?

C5

 

[rbrucecarter5]

BTW, on the Los Angeles board listeners are commenting on how good KFI 640 has been sounding of late. It's true. The audio has a nice, sweet fullness to it. In addition to a new plant and tower, the station has also switched off its HD equipment. Now what does that tell you?

C5

Not only that - KFI's monster signal is back. Listeners have heard it as far as the Eastern seaboard. Most of that is the resumption of 50 kW on a new tower, but some is probably also due to the cessation of the IBOC power drain. Local blowtorch WBAP has been off of HD for a while now, and sounds good again. I still need to test and see how far the groundwave goes - it was really hurting while they were running HD.

 

[clouseau]

clouseau said:

I would ask where you heard it is "Immune", but I know better.

Yes, you should know better, but pretend you don't.
It's right here:

Ever wished you could get the same quality of sound from your radio as you do from your CD? Or that your radio signal didn’t fade out just when you wanted to listen to the game? Now you can. Get the kind of sound that was previously reserved for your HDTV, CD system or MP3 player. Get it on your radio. And get it for free!

CD-quality sound
Crystal-clear reception
No station drop-off

No static, hiss or audio distortion

Link:
http://www.hdradio.com/how_does_hd_digital_radio_sound.php

and

3-3

Is immune to multipath interference;

Link:
http://www.hdradio.com/the_buzz.php?thebuzz=87

HD radio promoters; always in denial. They have nothing else.

Nice response. But where in YOUR LINK do I see the terms "immune" or "Multipath"? Like I asked.? ? ? OOPS.

Accuse all you want. More diversion. Less fact. You got it.

Clouseau

 

[SUPERCASTER]

clouseau said:

I would ask where you heard it is "Immune", but I know better.

Yes, you should know better, but pretend you don't.
It's right here:

Ever wished you could get the same quality of sound from your radio as you do from your CD? Or that your radio signal didn’t fade out just when you wanted to listen to the game? Now you can. Get the kind of sound that was previously reserved for your HDTV, CD system or MP3 player. Get it on your radio. And get it for free!

CD-quality sound
Crystal-clear reception
No station drop-off

No static, hiss or audio distortion

Link:
http://www.hdradio.com/how_does_hd_digital_radio_sound.php

and

3-3

Is immune to multipath interference;

Link:
http://www.hdradio.com/the_buzz.php?thebuzz=87

HD radio promoters; always in denial. They have nothing else.

Nice response. But where in YOUR LINK do I see the terms "immune" or "Multipath"? Like I asked.? ? ? OOPS.

Accuse all you want. More diversion. Less fact. You got it.

Clouseau

Right there in section 3-3 exactly as I said. Just click on the link and scroll down.

Here is the quote and link again since you missed it:

3-3
Quote
"Is immune to multipath interference:"

Link:
http://www.hdradio.com/the_buzz.php?thebuzz=87

HD radio promoters; always in denial. They have nothing else.

 

[Play Freebird]

3-3

Is immune to multipath interference;

Link:
http://www.hdradio.com/the_buzz.php?thebuzz=87

HD radio promoters; always in denial. They have nothing else.

Yep, it claims immunity to multipath.

While I've found that's largely true in urban centers with strong signals and short-delay reflections, the multipath immunity falls apart in mountainous terrain. Try listening to WQKX-HD in the coal mining towns of Schuylkill County, PA and you'll hear frequent dropouts caused by multipath. And WFKB from Boyertown loses digital lock in northern Berks County in many spots along Rt 61, apparently caused by the long-delay reflection from Blue Mountain.

By the way, at the top of the page you linked to, HD Radio™ is promoting a event called "From Sweden with Löv Tour" which is being held "For the Löv of HD Radio", but be forewarned that the Swedish word "Löv" has nothing to do with love -- it actually translates to "leaf", as in foliage. This may be a subtle way of admitting that HD coverage is degraded when the leaves come out.

As an American of Swedish descent, I cringe whenever I see Scandinavian words (with bogus umlauts) used incorrectly for marketing purposes, shame on Volvo, too. I avoid Häagen-Dazs for the same reason -- not to mention that Ben and Jerry's tastes better.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

As an American of Swedish descent, I cringe whenever I see Scandinavian words (with bogus umlauts) used incorrectly for marketing purposes, shame on Volvo, too.

As dö I. (Sorry...couldn't resist...)

I avoid Häagen-Dazs for the same reason -- not to mention that Ben and Jerry's tastes better.

I take it you don't know that they're made by the same company.

 

[Play Freebird]

As dö I. (Sorry...couldn't resist...)

You don't c'est!

I avoid Häagen-Dazs for the same reason -- not to mention that Ben and Jerry's tastes better.

I take it you don't know that they're made by the same company.
[/quote]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought H-D (sic) was made by General Mills and the B&J's brand was bought by Unilever. Proving that even a couple of left-wing regular guys from Vermont can also become wealthy capitalists while increasing the public's consumption of sugar and saturated fats in the process.

 

[Savage]

You semi-Swedes may already know about this, but I recall reading somewhere that "Haagen-Dazs" is a completely-made up meaningless term, and isn't even real Swedish, as if people at Wise Potato Chips decided to market them overseas as "Foobdrgo."

"H-D" ice cream. "HD Radio." Both contrived service marks, designed to create an impression in the mind of the consumer which comports not at all with reality. Like how "HD" Radio tried to hitchhike on the high-tech, high-quality image of HDTV.

Not-So-Closed-Circuit for Clouseau: I note your taunt to some other poster here suggesting HD is "The Titanic Of Radio." 1522 people lost their lives on the Titanic, but maritime historians may also note a parallel tragedy, almost as bad, known as the Eastland disaster.

The Eastland was a Great Lakes excursion steamer. The ship was dangerously unstable when underway, but after the Titanic sinking, new maritime safety regulations mandated the famous "lifeboats for everybody" rule. Unfortunately stacking all the required lifeboats topside on the Eastland made it so top-heavy one summer day in 1915 it capsized while still moored to its dock in the Chicago River. Some of the survivors escaped by simply stepping over the rail onto the dock as the steamer turned turtle.

945 people drowned, trapped in lower decks. The ship wasn't even moving.

So really, HD is more like the Eastland Of Radio instead of the Titanic. Unlike the Titanic, an unprecedented tragedy the likes of which has never happened before or since, everybody knew it was just a matter of time before fatal disaster struck the Eastland. And like HD, it was doomed before it even got under way.

 

[clouseau]

Right there in section 3-3 exactly as I said. Just click on the link and scroll down.

Here is the quote and link again since you missed it:

3-3
Quote
"Is immune to multipath interference:"

Link:
http://www.hdradio.com/the_buzz.php?thebuzz=87

HD radio promoters; always in denial. They have nothing else.

[/quote]

My apologies, I guess I didn't read the entirety of both of the links. While there is improved resistance to multipath as many have stated here, I would agree that use of the term "Immune" is pretty brash. "Improved resistance" I would agree with. Immune... Not really. It's like "No distortion" while you get a perfect copy of what the encoder puts out on your radio, "No Distortion" tends to suggest you get a perfect copy of what goes "IN" to the encoder. Virtually No system or piece of equipment has "No Distortion". But lots of stuff gets pretty close. I would also point out "Immune to multipath" COULD mean there is no degradation of audio due to multipath, which actually there isn't. It works untill it doesn't and then you lose lock. So in reality, you never "Hear" HD Multipath, you just lose service. While that is a stretch, it is factually correct. I'd have never used those terms, nor have I ever AFAIK. Which brings us back to the methods used to promote HD radio. And we all know about those.

Clouseau

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Thanks, clouseau, for taking the time to re-read my links.

If I read your posts correctly you seem to be saying that most of the the HD radio claims and promotions are highly inflated at best.

What I have been saying all along is that HD radio claims are consistantly (deliberately?) misleading and just plain factually inacurate.

Either way they are certainly deceptive, just as the car that claims better then 100 miles per gallon (but only when the engine is off, rolling downhill and with a tailwind).

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

I thought H-D (sic) was made by General Mills and the B&J's brand was bought by Unilever. Proving that even a couple of left-wing regular guys from Vermont can also become wealthy capitalists while increasing the public's consumption of sugar and saturated fats in the process.

Well, I was going by what I was told by my sister, who was a B&J stockholder until Unilever took over. Looks like you got it right, however. You can't keep track of the players without a scorecard...

 

[clouseau]

Thanks, clouseau, for taking the time to re-read my links.

If I read your posts correctly you seem to be saying that most of the the HD radio claims and promotions are highly inflated at best.

No not at all. It's marketing. You don't advertise a product by by saying "Bud Light has marginally better drinkability." You claim "superior". Superior to who? IHMO, Bud light tastes like dishwater compared to Miler Lite.

I would point aout again that HD radio is immune to multipath "IN MANY SITUATIONS". HD radio "HAS" "CD Quality". As in "Sounds better than some CDs. And significantly quieter noise floor. They also claim "Crystal Clear reception". Again, "IN THE SERVICE AREA" this is the case. You don't get static. No "station drop off". Dumb thing to claim, but again same deal. I wouldn't have gone there, but they did.

You can't say "This product cures all cancer". Do it and you get jammed. Why no issues like this with the HD radio marketing? Not really false claims.

What I have been saying all along is that HD radio claims are consistantly (deliberately?) misleading and just plain factually inacurate.

Again, they are just NOT factually inaccurate. They state advantages and do not state disadvantages. That's advertising. I'd have done it differently, but that doesn't make it "Inacurate".

Either way they are certainly deceptive, just as the car that claims better then 100 miles per gallon (but only when the engine is off, rolling downhill and with a tailwind).

Again, a mileage standard is a federally mandated number derived from a federally mandated and supervised test. (I don't konw the exact procedure, but the Feds write rules and the like.) It's not an arbitrary claim.

How many times have you heard a radio station claim they have the best music? I'll bet my 79 year old Dad would disagree. Does that make it "Deceptive"? Not to me.

The method of marketing HD radio has been pretty bad. IMHO a lot of that comes from the Willy Nilly way it was developed. It was already rolled out before they realized they could multicast? DUMB. There's an article in a recent Radio World (I think it was) which laments how "First they rolled it out, then they decided on the standard."

I suspect a lot of things would have been done differently in HD radio if they knew then what they know now. But hindsight is 20/20. Same is true of the DTV conversion. It'll be interesting to see how that goes down in two weeks. (Or 90 days and 2 weeks).

Clouseau

 

[SUPERCASTER]

clouseau,

Your many various excuses for the HD cartel's false and misleading claims for their reliability, quality, technology, system, and equipment do not immunize them from being deceptive.

What is Deceptive Advertising and Marketing?

An advertisement or marketing practice is considered deceptive if there is a "representation, omission, or practice that is likely to mislead the consumer". The advertisement does not necessarily have to cause actual deception, but, according to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the act need only likely mislead the consumer (Federal Trade Commission, 1998 [on-line]).

What Makes Advertising Deceptive?

According to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the government agency responsible for regulating and monitoring advertising practices, there are three common elements they look for in deceptive advertising and marketing claims. First, there must be "a representation, omission or practice that will likely mislead the consumer", such as misleading price claims, or a oral or written misrepresentation of a product or service. Second, the FTC examines the misrepresentation from the view of a "reasonable" consumer or particular target group such as the elderly. And finally, "the representation, omission, or practice must be a ‘material’ one". This means that if the misrepresentation is likely to affect the consumer’s decision whether or not to use or purchase a certain product or service, this is considered material since the consumer may have decided differently if not for the deceptive advertising (Federal Trade Commission, 1998 [on-line]).

Oral and Written Misrepresentation or Omission (see text)

Link:
http://polaris.umuc.edu/~tgrodsky/admn687/articles/kmarple.html


HD radio does not even state that "Results May Vary". Even if made, it is no defense.

See:

MYTH # 2 -- If Your Product Has Some Benefits, Your Ads Won't Be Challenged

(See full text)

MYTH # 5 -- If You Contradict A Deceptive Claim With A Disclosure, You Immunize Yourself From Liability
Or, the "Say It Isn't So" myth. The Commission looks at the net impression created by an advertisement. Disclosures that flatly contradict a deceptive claim, or that purport not to make the claim, are generally ineffective. The best advice is not to make a claim so broad that you cannot substantiate it. Instead, narrow the claim to what you have substantiation for so that you do not need a separate disclosure about how narrow the claim is.

MYTH # 6 -- "Results May Vary" Is An Adequate Disclosure
We call this . . . the "Results May Vary" myth. "Results may vary" and variations on that theme are not adequate disclosures, yet we see them again and again, usually in fine print flashed briefly across the bottom of a television screen while a consumer or expert gives a glowing endorsement. If a "results may vary" disclosure is prominent enough to be noticed, consumers are likely to believe that it simply means that not everyone will achieve the promised results. It does not disabuse them of the very powerful claim that the results are typical of what they can expect to achieve if they use your product.

Link:
http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/starek/nima96d4.shtm

So the correct answer is:
Yes, HD promoters and the cartel, making the usual grossly inflated claims for HD radio, are deceptive.

 

[clouseau]

Well you've obviously positioned yourself as an expert in these matters. Clearly, according to you, their advertising is deceptive and actionable. If only iBiquity had hired a respected ad agency to promote their products honestly, they wouldn't be faced with the landslide of deceptive ad complaints they are now.

Oh wait, never mind. How about...

Well, clearly, they are NOT under a landslide of complaints because they have the FCC in their back pocket and the FCC will do whatever broadcasters ask, without question. Therefore, deceptive advertising would be overlooked despite it's obvious existance...

Oh wait, that would be ANOTHER federal agency "iNiquity" has bribed and paid off. But certainly that would make sense based on their corruption within the FCC.

But even so, their still getting it big time from all of the Attorney Generals all over the country in individual states. Remember THEY were the one's who finally got the cigarette manufacturers so all their actions against iBiquity will certainly show their advertising as deceptive...

Except these actions seem to be well hidden. More iBiquity hush money, no doubt.

Not to mention the onslaught of BBB claims. As per your article, they can't enforce things, but they sure do publish them. More iNiquity payoffs to keep them out of their files.

Well clearly the broadcasters themselves have recourse. we've all heard of the alledged vast numbers of complaints at the FCC. But clearly they are dwarfed by the civil actions taken up by independent broadcasters against iBiquity.

Are they bribing the New York Times to keep the lid on all of them? Don't forget all the court clerks.

--------------------

I would suggest that just possibly, the situation isn't as clear cut as you describe. I suggest that only because of the incredible series of events that would have to be taking place right now for your version to be correct.

From your sources...
The FTC also believes that in order for an advertisement to be deceptive, the act or practice must be considered from a reasonable consumer’s point of view

I would suggest perhaps THAT is a more accurate explanation than all the hush money and "tin foil hat" conspiracies.

Then again, I could be wrong. Perhaps you've found a whole other "Ralph Nade-like" cause worhty of pursuit. Should you decide to embark on such a venture, be assured I'll be interested to follow it. As will others.

Clouseau

 

[Play Freebird]

Doesn't the FTC require all print advertisements for TV sets to include a "simulated picture" disclaimer if the screen displays anything other than real video? IIRC, this practice originated in the early days of NTSC television when resolution and color stability was dreadful. But today, a 1080i high definition DTV picture looks so good that there's probably no longer any reason to paste in the fake screen.

While digital television truly offers HD, unfortunately IBOC digital radio must resort to deception in an attempt to sell receivers.

 

[Tom Wells]

Digital TV and/or its application in new televisions also in no way degrades or makes the old analog reception poorer than old analog sets.
A cornerstone of HDs strategy had been to make the analog ( at least for AM ) SO muffled that even the artifact laden HD decode will
sound preferable, and that is the most damning evidence to me that ibiquity can't or won't behave ethically.
The bandwidth for HD radios' analog AM decode is appropriate for shortwave dxing in crowded international bands, not MW BC reception!

 

[Mack Daddy]

" How nice of you to logon to the board for the first time a mere minute ago and tell us of you HD review experience."

FIRST TIME?These boards tend to bring out the negative.I don't think it's just a hate for HD radio.There's just too many bad experiences.I think I'll wait a while before I purchase one.

Thanks for the info! I have been thinkin' about gettin' an HD radio, but after seeing these negative reviews maybe I'll just wait, or get it never! Sounds like it has much the same problem is the ridiculous HD Tv. I live 17 miles from Seattle, and out of like 20 available television signals, I can only get one with a strong enough signal to even show me a picture at all. The other stations are not receivable at all. What a crock!

 

[Tom Wells]

" How nice of you to logon to the board for the first time a mere minute ago and tell us of you HD review experience."

FIRST TIME?These boards tend to bring out the negative.I don't think it's just a hate for HD radio.There's just too many bad experiences.I think I'll wait a while before I purchase one.

Thanks for the info! I have been thinkin' about gettin' an HD radio, but after seeing these negative reviews maybe I'll just wait, or get it never! Sounds like it has much the same problem is the ridiculous HD Tv. I live 17 miles from Seattle, and out of like 20 available television signals, I can only get one with a strong enough signal to even show me a picture at all. The other stations are not receivable at all. What a crock!

Shame on you for trying to watch out-of-market signals. Your local TV stations only want you to watch them, not the big guys in Seattle.
Digital TV is NOT for dxers. If you insist on subverting the whole march to digital, you'll need a tower, rotor and yagi like other cheaters.

 

[KB1OKL]

" How nice of you to logon to the board for the first time a mere minute ago and tell us of you HD review experience."

FIRST TIME?These boards tend to bring out the negative.I don't think it's just a hate for HD radio.There's just too many bad experiences.I think I'll wait a while before I purchase one.

Thanks for the info! I have been thinkin' about gettin' an HD radio, but after seeing these negative reviews maybe I'll just wait, or get it never! Sounds like it has much the same problem is the ridiculous HD Tv. I live 17 miles from Seattle, and out of like 20 available television signals, I can only get one with a strong enough signal to even show me a picture at all. The other stations are not receivable at all. What a crock!

Shame on you for trying to watch out-of-market signals. Your local TV stations only want you to watch them, not the big guys in Seattle.
Digital TV is NOT for dxers. If you insist on subverting the whole march to digital, you'll need a tower, rotor and yagi like other cheaters.

Jeez, it looks like our "inevitable digital future" has hit a few bumps in the road. What a shame. :