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HD sidebands and adjacents.....

K

k9ez

Guest
OK, so it is not totally scientific.

First of all let me give you and idea where I am... I am about 90 miles away from the FM antenna in downtown Chicago and about 25 miles from most of the FM in Milwaukee.

Last night driving around, I was searching for a few FM HD stations. Sometimes some of the Chicago FMs pop through. Locally we have a 103.7 WXSS running HD. In Chicago there is a 103.5. Since Chicago was coming through a little last night, I thought this would be a great test to see if the HD Sidebands would take out an adjacent station.

The Chicago 103.5 was coming in in full stereo (yes there was picket fencing, sheeesh it is 90 miles away!) ONCE and a while I would hear a little hiss from the HD Signal. But basically it left the adjacent 103.5 signal alone. Even I was surprised.
 
> OK, so it is not totally scientific.
>
> First of all let me give you and idea where I am... I am
> about 90 miles away from the FM antenna in downtown Chicago
> and about 25 miles from most of the FM in Milwaukee.
>
> Last night driving around, I was searching for a few FM HD
> stations. Sometimes some of the Chicago FMs pop through.
> Locally we have a 103.7 WXSS running HD. In Chicago there
> is a 103.5. Since Chicago was coming through a little last
> night, I thought this would be a great test to see if the HD
> Sidebands would take out an adjacent station.
>
> The Chicago 103.5 was coming in in full stereo (yes there
> was picket fencing, sheeesh it is 90 miles away!) ONCE and a
> while I would hear a little hiss from the HD Signal. But
> basically it left the adjacent 103.5 signal alone. Even I
> was surprised.
>
Were you listening with an HD radio? If so, when the Chicago station came through on 103.5, and seeing that the Chicago station was apparently overriding to digital sideband of 103.7 on 103.5, did it stop you from receiving the local station on 103.7 in HD? Also, were you able to pick up any AM HD stations from chicago? Later.
 
> OK, so it is not totally scientific.
>
> First of all let me give you and idea where I am... I am
> about 90 miles away from the FM antenna in downtown Chicago
> and about 25 miles from most of the FM in Milwaukee.
>
> Last night driving around, I was searching for a few FM HD
> stations. Sometimes some of the Chicago FMs pop through.
> Locally we have a 103.7 WXSS running HD. In Chicago there
> is a 103.5. Since Chicago was coming through a little last
> night, I thought this would be a great test to see if the HD
> Sidebands would take out an adjacent station.
>
> The Chicago 103.5 was coming in in full stereo (yes there
> was picket fencing, sheeesh it is 90 miles away!) ONCE and a
> while I would hear a little hiss from the HD Signal. But
> basically it left the adjacent 103.5 signal alone. Even I
> was surprised.
>

That's great! So maybe the interference issue that so many HD radio doomsdayers have been pointing to isn't really an issue at all.

Is it possible that a person will just need an HD radio to clear up those HD sidebands/adjacents issues that have been discussed? Is that the key to making those problems go away?
 
> > OK, so it is not totally scientific.
> >
> > First of all let me give you and idea where I am... I am
> > about 90 miles away from the FM antenna in downtown
> Chicago
> > and about 25 miles from most of the FM in Milwaukee.
> >
> > Last night driving around, I was searching for a few FM HD
>
> > stations. Sometimes some of the Chicago FMs pop through.
>
> > Locally we have a 103.7 WXSS running HD. In Chicago there
>
> > is a 103.5. Since Chicago was coming through a little
> last
> > night, I thought this would be a great test to see if the
> HD
> > Sidebands would take out an adjacent station.
> >
> > The Chicago 103.5 was coming in in full stereo (yes there
> > was picket fencing, sheeesh it is 90 miles away!) ONCE and
> a
> > while I would hear a little hiss from the HD Signal. But
> > basically it left the adjacent 103.5 signal alone. Even I
>
> > was surprised.
> >
> Were you listening with an HD radio? If so, when the Chicago
> station came through on 103.5, and seeing that the Chicago
> station was apparently overriding to digital sideband of
> 103.7 on 103.5, did it stop you from receiving the local
> station on 103.7 in HD? Also, were you able to pick up any
> AM HD stations from chicago? Later.
>


I was listening to an HD radio (Kenwood). The Chicago station was over riding the HD signal, and I was able to get the local in HD. The Chicago stations did not come in HD, but no surprise there. Yes I am able to get WSCR-AM in HD. WBBM seems to haev turn theirs off. I can get the WRLL and AM1200 HD pilot but far too weak to lock in.
 
> The Chicago 103.5 was coming in in full stereo (yes there
> was picket fencing, sheeesh it is 90 miles away!) ONCE and a
> while I would hear a little hiss from the HD Signal. But
> basically it left the adjacent 103.5 signal alone. Even I
> was surprised.

If you have flat terrain, the IBOC sidebands tend to behave okay. But if you have lots of hills and valleys in your area, IBOC sidebands can totally obliterate reception of adjacent-channel stations even within their own FCC protected signal contour. For example, Bridgewater, NJ is about 35 miles from NYC and 50 miles from Philadelphia. However, if you get on the western side of a hill, the FM signals from NYC will become drowned out by the noise and static from the IBOC sidebands of the Philly stations, even though the Philly stations are much farther away, and even though Bridgewater is well within the protected signal contour of the NYC FM stations.

The problem is even worse in Trenton, NJ, which is about 25 miles from Philly and 55 miles from NYC. Before any IBOC went on the air, the NYC FM stations could be received in full-quieting stereo on any good car radio in Trenton. Now, the best you can get is hissy mono, because of the adjacent-channel IBOC hash from the Philly stations. The effect of this can be directly seen in the Arbitron ratings for Trenton: ratings of the NYC stations have significantly dropped since IBOC went on the air in Philly, because of this interference. No, Trenton is not within the protected signal contour of the NYC FM stations. But if they are getting ratings from Trenton, I think they should care about not losing all those listeners due to this IBOC interference!

It will be very interesting to witness the results when both 103.3 WPRB in Princeton, NJ and 103.5 WKTU in NYC go on the air with IBOC. These are full-power Class B FM signals on adjacent channels only about 35 miles apart from each other!

WKTU-WPRBCoverage.gif

<P ID="signature">______________
ImportantInfo.jpg

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>
 
> > > OK, so it is not totally scientific.
> > >
> > > First of all let me give you and idea where I am... I am
>
> > > about 90 miles away from the FM antenna in downtown
> > Chicago
> > > and about 25 miles from most of the FM in Milwaukee.
> > >
> > > Last night driving around, I was searching for a few FM
> HD
> >
> > > stations. Sometimes some of the Chicago FMs pop
> through.
> >
> > > Locally we have a 103.7 WXSS running HD. In Chicago
> there
> >
> > > is a 103.5. Since Chicago was coming through a little
> > last
> > > night, I thought this would be a great test to see if
> the
> > HD
> > > Sidebands would take out an adjacent station.
> > >
> > > The Chicago 103.5 was coming in in full stereo (yes
> there
> > > was picket fencing, sheeesh it is 90 miles away!) ONCE
> and
> > a
> > > while I would hear a little hiss from the HD Signal.
> But
> > > basically it left the adjacent 103.5 signal alone. Even
> I
> >
> > > was surprised.
> > >
> > Were you listening with an HD radio? If so, when the
> Chicago
> > station came through on 103.5, and seeing that the Chicago
>
> > station was apparently overriding to digital sideband of
> > 103.7 on 103.5, did it stop you from receiving the local
> > station on 103.7 in HD? Also, were you able to pick up any
>
> > AM HD stations from chicago? Later.
> >
>
>
> I was listening to an HD radio (Kenwood). The Chicago
> station was over riding the HD signal, and I was able to get
> the local in HD. The Chicago stations did not come in HD,
> but no surprise there. Yes I am able to get WSCR-AM in HD.
> WBBM seems to haev turn theirs off. I can get the WRLL and
> AM1200 HD pilot but far too weak to lock in.
>


I shoulda cranked up the power on the 103.7 HD transmitter while you were out.

I kid, I kid...<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
>
> The problem is even worse in Trenton, NJ, which is about 25
> miles from Philly and 55 miles from NYC. Before any IBOC
> went on the air, the NYC FM stations could be received in
> full-quieting stereo on any good car radio in Trenton. Now,
> the best you can get is hissy mono, because of the
> adjacent-channel IBOC hash from the Philly stations. The
> effect of this can be directly seen in the Arbitron ratings
> for Trenton: ratings of the NYC stations have significantly
> dropped since IBOC went on the air in Philly, because of
> this interference. No, Trenton is not within the protected
> signal contour of the NYC FM stations. But if they are
> getting ratings from Trenton, I think they should care about
> not losing all those listeners due to this IBOC
> interference!
>

Yes, they should care. Except that by law, they have no recourse. Bottom line: Whatever happens outside your protected contour doesn't matter - even if you prove you have listeners there.

The FCC has stated this many times.

Plus, if the NYC stations cared that much, why aren't they turning off IBOC?<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
>
>
> I shoulda cranked up the power on the 103.7 HD transmitter
> while you were out.
>
> I kid, I kid...
>

Ya and gone to a whole 200w on IBOC???? OOOH quite the blow torch!

Nice work on the WXSS IBOC though! Good and clean.
 
> >
> >
> > I shoulda cranked up the power on the 103.7 HD transmitter
>
> > while you were out.
> >
> > I kid, I kid...
> >
>
> Ya and gone to a whole 200w on IBOC???? OOOH quite the blow
> torch!
>
> Nice work on the WXSS IBOC though! Good and clean.
>

Thanks! I was pretty happy with the way it turned out!<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
> Plus, if the NYC stations cared that much, why aren't they
> turning off IBOC?

Because they think they can use it to steal listeners away from satellite radio. That's the reason why they have it on in the first place. There are many broadcasters who have literally said, "we need IBOC to compete with satellite". Of course, what they really should be saying is "we need BETTER PROGRAMMING to compete with satellite", but they'd never admit that!

BTW, some of the NYC FM stations get ratings in the Wilkes-Barre / Scraton, PA market, which is 100 miles away from NYC. Of course this will completely disappear if any of the local PA stations fire up their own hash generators.

<P ID="signature">______________
ImportantInfo.jpg

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>
 
Programming

> > Plus, if the NYC stations cared that much, why aren't they
>
> > turning off IBOC?
>
> Because they think they can use it to steal listeners away
> from satellite radio. That's the reason why they have it on
> in the first place. There are many broadcasters who have
> literally said, "we need IBOC to compete with satellite".
> Of course, what they really should be saying is "we need
> BETTER PROGRAMMING to compete with satellite", but they'd
> never admit that!
>
> BTW, some of the NYC FM stations get ratings in the
> Wilkes-Barre / Scraton, PA market, which is 100 miles away
> from NYC. Of course this will completely disappear if any
> of the local PA stations fire up their own hash generators.
>


OK what would you feel is "better programming" What would YOU do for better programming? Also, do you consider sat radio to be better programming?
 
Re: Programming

> OK what would you feel is "better programming" What would
> YOU do for better programming? Also, do you consider sat
> radio to be better programming?

If satellite radio is here to stay, then terrestrial radio has to find a way to COMPLEMENT satellite radio, not compete with it. 80 years ago, people thought radio would kill newspapers, but newspapers found a way to complement radio. 50 years ago, people thought TV would kill radio, but radio found a way to complement TV. 10 years ago, people thought the Internet would kill everything non-computerized (newspapers, radio, TV, books, magazines, etc.), but everything found a way to complement the Internet.

How can terrestrial radio complement satellite radio? By focusing on the things that satellite can't provide: LIVE, LOCAL programming. NOT automated music jukeboxes, like the "Jack"-type stations and "HD2" channels are doing. A perfect example of a radio station that's doing things right is WLNG on Long Island. They're 100% live and local, playing music heavily based upon what the listeners want to hear, not on some strict 200-song corporate playlist. WLNG doesn't even broadcast in Stereo, but yet they have huge ratings and excellent support from local advertisers. It may seem ironic that radio has to go back to the kind of programming that was common in the '60s in order to survive the future, but I think the cookie-cutter corporate stations will have the most to lose if satellite radio continues to grow in popularity.
<P ID="signature">______________
ImportantInfo.jpg

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>
 
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