HD signals receivable at your location

[Tom Wells]

As I've stated before, if someone can prove that an HD station is operating illegally and interfering within a stations protected contour, then please contact the FCC. That's really at this point the only answer if you want to see HD transmisson stopped.

Properly implemented, HD will not cause interference within a station's protected contour.


If someone wants to "thin the herd" in radio, IBOC is a great way to do it. I suspect that is part of the plan.

Properly implemented HD AM interferes with the analog host itself on 50kw Non- directionals for about 200 miles.
I think this must include the primary protected contour.

Beyond that, it starts to sound like a regular AM analog, only with no high-frequency response.

The FCC will not enforce a station to stop interfering with itself...so WHAT'S the next step?

IBOC has ruined my (our) ability to receive clearly two AM 50kws, WGN and WBBM. There are others, but these two were useful to me.
Now, I will check them for news and such, but cannot leave them on due to the interference.

In market no. 3, this is MANY listeners now subjected to more hiss than dx'ers ever had to deal with.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

R. F. Burns said:

OK, I know WDAS which barely covers it's city of license. If there are interference issues, allow the FCC to do its job. Untilk then all your iBuzz and BuzzBerg just make you look silly to those who are waiting to see how this plays out legally. Interesting though, WBCB allthough short spaced with WDAS is in a null of the WDAS pattern, both day and night. Considering that WDAS is playing gospel music which contains lots of high frequency audio, I wonder how WBCB does with what must be an awful lot of current analogue splash as it is. In my market you can't hear any first adjacent signals within 30 miles or so of the current non IBOC transmitters. Does it matter it matter if you're signal suffers from an 80% inteference problem of 100% interference problem Either way, if the interference is that bad, one station or the other won't be listenable.

1-"If there are interference issues, allow the FCC to do its job."
Reply-We're waiting for the official universal "buzz off" date from the FCC.

2-"Untilk then all your iBuzz and BuzzBerg just make you look silly"
Reply-Your opinion only, others may differ. What makes you think others do not find your comments, opinions and postings at least equally silly and childish?

3-"I wonder how WBCB does with what must be an awful lot of current analogue splash as it is."
Reply-No splash, just iBuzz. You forgot the 5 kHz brick wall filter HD WDAS must use. Even without the filter, an occasional, unusually loud, high frequency transient is no where near as objectionable, continuous, or powerful as continuous square wave iBuzz.

Chuck is right. The cartel plan, as stated clearly by "Guy Wire" is "thinning the heard of cripples".

A deep DA null at carrier frequency, does not necessarily mean an equally deep null at the same compass bearing on the two adjacent channel frequencies. If two, new, square wave digital signals are transmitted on the adjacent channels, they are two new signals that were not there before, and that the DA was never intended to handle.
It is no wonder that HD on AM directional stations is problematic, and often out of compliance.

 

[Chuck]

By the way, my previous comments about protected contour were made specifically about IBOC on FM, where it more or less works if you have enough power. I don’t think I was clear about that. I did not mean to give the impression that I think there is no problem on AM. As far as I can tell, the idea of AM IBOC should be put out of its misery as soon as possible. Either that, or everyone should be forced to light up IBOC on AM 24/7 and let the lawyers have a field day. Now, that would be a farce…

Of course, most small stations can't afford the legal proceedings, nor can they afford the loss of revenue for the period of time it would take for the legal system to work things out. Either way, the herd gets thinned.

As for the suggestion of solving interference problems by changing the City of License, Surely, you're kidding? It isn't quite as simple as that. For a starter, it can’t always be done under the current rules. Even if it can, it hardly sounds cost effective for the small broadcaster. Few could afford it.

All of this puts the small broadcaster in the position of having to spend lots of their resources fixing a problem that they did not cause. That does not strike me as fair or just.

 

[R.F. Burns]

As I've stated before, if someone can prove that an HD station is operating illegally and interfering within a stations protected contour, then please contact the FCC. That's really at this point the only answer if you want to see HD transmisson stopped.

Properly implemented, HD will not cause interference within a station's protected contour.


If someone wants to "thin the herd" in radio, IBOC is a great way to do it. I suspect that is part of the plan.

Properly implemented HD AM interferes with the analog host itself on 50kw Non- directionals for about 200 miles.
I think this must include the primary protected contour.

Beyond that, it starts to sound like a regular AM analog, only with no high-frequency response.

The FCC will not enforce a station to stop interfering with itself...so WHAT'S the next step?

IBOC has ruined my (our) ability to receive clearly two AM 50kws, WGN and WBBM. There are others, but these two were useful to me.
Now, I will check them for news and such, but cannot leave them on due to the interference.

In market no. 3, this is MANY listeners now subjected to more hiss than dx'ers ever had to deal with.

This isn't exactly true. There are certain minimums which every station must maintain and that includes the 50 K non Directional stations. Report anything you feel is causing loss of service to the FCC. That's the only way to achive anything. Posting in here without doing anything serves almost no purpose, if you feel you are in the right.

 

[R.F. Burns]

By the way, my previous comments about protected contour were made specifically about IBOC on FM, where it more or less works if you have enough power. I don’t think I was clear about that. I did not mean to give the impression that I think there is no problem on AM. As far as I can tell, the idea of AM IBOC should be put out of its misery as soon as possible. Either that, or everyone should be forced to light up IBOC on AM 24/7 and let the lawyers have a field day. Now, that would be a farce…

Of course, most small stations can't afford the legal proceedings, nor can they afford the loss of revenue for the period of time it would take for the legal system to work things out. Either way, the herd gets thinned.

As for the suggestion of solving interference problems by changing the City of License, Surely, you're kidding? It isn't quite as simple as that. For a starter, it can’t always be done under the current rules. Even if it can, it hardly sounds cost effective for the small broadcaster. Few could afford it.

All of this puts the small broadcaster in the position of having to spend lots of their resources fixing a problem that they did not cause. That does not strike me as fair or just.

Could you please tell me where in the rules it says that every broadcaster large and small must impliment IBOC on their station? If on the other hand an IBOC station is operating illegally then the answer is to yfile with the FCC or get a group of small broadcasters together and file a class action suit. That is the only recourse that makes sense to me. Complaining about possible consequences really achieves nothing.

 

[Chuck]

Could you please tell me where in the rules it says that every broadcaster large and small must impliment IBOC on their station?

It doesn't. But if your next door neighbor switches it on, you may have a problem, especially if you are relatively low power. This is forcing the damaged station to take action over something that was not previously broken. Any out of protected contour interference is not taking away anything the station is legally entitled to, but it is taking away something that has always been there. (Coverage of their fringe area analog signal.)

If on the other hand an IBOC station is operating illegally then the answer is to yfile with the FCC or get a group of small broadcasters together and file a class action suit. That is the only recourse that makes sense to me.

Have you ever been involved in a law suit? They can take years to settle, and in this case, unless you can prove that the station did something wrong, you lose. The only people who will win in that situation are the lawyers. That's because IBOC is a legal way to diminish the fringe area reception of smaller stations. Because it is LEGAL, there is little the small broadcaster (or anyone else) can do.

Complaining about possible consequences really achieves nothing.

Ever hear the expression "Forewarned is forearmed?

 

[hipporadio]

R. F. Burns said:

OK, I know WDAS which barely covers it's city of license. If there are interference issues, allow the FCC to do its job. Untilk then all your iBuzz and BuzzBerg just make you look silly to those who are waiting to see how this plays out legally. Interesting though, WBCB allthough short spaced with WDAS is in a null of the WDAS pattern, both day and night. Considering that WDAS is playing gospel music which contains lots of high frequency audio, I wonder how WBCB does with what must be an awful lot of current analogue splash as it is. In my market you can't hear any first adjacent signals within 30 miles or so of the current non IBOC transmitters. Does it matter it matter if you're signal suffers from an 80% inteference problem of 100% interference problem Either way, if the interference is that bad, one station or the other won't be listenable.

1-"If there are interference issues, allow the FCC to do its job."
Reply-We're waiting for the official universal "buzz off" date from the FCC.

2-"Untilk then all your iBuzz and BuzzBerg just make you look silly"
Reply-Your opinion only, others may differ. What makes you think others do not find your comments, opinions and postings at least equally silly and childish?

3-"I wonder how WBCB does with what must be an awful lot of current analogue splash as it is."
Reply-No splash, just iBuzz. You forgot the 5 kHz brick wall filter HD WDAS must use. Even without the filter, an occasional, unusually loud, high frequency transient is no where near as objectionable, continuous, or powerful as continuous square wave iBuzz.

Chuck is right. The cartel plan, as stated clearly by "Guy Wire" is "thinning the heard of cripples".

A deep DA null at carrier frequency, does not necessarily mean an equally deep null at the same compass bearing on the two adjacent channel frequencies. If two, new, square wave digital signals are transmitted on the adjacent channels, they are two new signals that were not there before, and that the DA was never intended to handle.
It is no wonder that HD on AM directional stations is problematic, and often out of compliance.

 

[hipporadio]

hit post by mistake... sorry :-[

 

[R.F. Burns]

"Could you please tell me where in the rules it says that every broadcaster large and small must impliment IBOC on their station?

It doesn't. But if your next door neighbor switches it on, you may have a problem, especially if you are relatively low power. This is forcing the damaged station to take action over something that was not previously broken. Any out of protected contour interference is not taking away anything the station is legally entitled to, but it is taking away something that has always been there. (Coverage of their fringe area analog signal.)"


Please read my comments concerinng deregulation and just how it destroyed station coverage, only in analogue mode. Destruction is destruction. To follow your logic, let's turn off all those stations which have started up in the last 20 years or so. Many have had a permanent impact on my listening habbits


"Have you ever been involved in a law suit? They can take years to settle, and in this case, unless you can prove that the station did something wrong, you lose. The only people who will win in that situation are the lawyers. That's because IBOC is a legal way to diminish the fringe area reception of smaller stations. Because it is LEGAL, there is little the small broadcaster (or anyone else) can do."


If you go in with that attitude and don't feel you have a strong case (and if you read my earlier comment concerning a class action suit, not a go it alone action) then don't expect any sympathy from broadcasters who are doing what they feel is in their own best interest. After all, isn't that what we're talking about here?

"Ever hear the expression "Forewarned is forearmed?"



Trust me, you aren't saying anyhting that everyone else who feels that they are barely holding on as it is hasn't already said.

 

[hipporadio]

A deep DA null at carrier frequency, does not necessarily mean an equally deep null at the same compass bearing on the two adjacent channel frequencies. If two, new, square wave digital signals are transmitted on the adjacent channels, they are two new signals that were not there before, and that the DA was never intended to handle.
It is no wonder that HD on AM directional stations is problematic, and often out of compliance.

Take two...

SUPERCASTER is as close to one-hundred-percent correct as a chap can come! I’ll offer three references... One from operational experience, and two others which I frequently observed—detailing the “real world” effects of deep-null behavior from a tight AM directional array with respect to its adjacent channels. I formerly operated a mid-band AM on a Mexican “clear” with 1kw ND—day and 190-watts ND at night (courtesy of the mid-80s “Mexican Agreement”). We could have enjoyed a unique opportunity to increase nighttime power to 2.5kw into a three-tower DA. We owned sufficient land at the TX to add the additional towers, and ordered a study from prominent AM engineer, Harold Munn.

I remember Hal calling to give us the good news—and bad... The upgrade could be a “go” (and would have made us the best night-facility by far in the market), but our site was on the wrong radial of the compass relative to our market (siimilar to WIOU's at 270-degrees with a slight rotation). A new (or separate) night site would be required because of the very same paradigm pointed out by SUPERCASTER. Hal’s exact analogy was: “It’ll work IF your listeners are willing to listen to side-channel “splash” instead of your licensed frequency at night”. He referred me to the WIOU pattern linked below for a near-identical comparison. I had heard this station—and knew exactly what he was describing! We got a cheap option on “bottomland” and a CP which transferred in the sale—but was never built for “economic reasons” and later deleted.

WKRD is the former (and legendary) WAKY... Their pattern anomalies at night are “famous”, and are always on the “AM Geek” listening tour of Louisville radio. The WKRD nighttime null at 40-degrees PERFECTLY illustrates what SUPERCASTER has described. It’s called the “The Wacky Ditch” for five miles along I-71 between Crestwood and La Grange, KY. 790’s carrier channel literally disappears (Cuba usually replaced it), but the adjacent sidebands remain “hot ‘n nasty”... It is one of the most peculiar phenomena I have experienced in all of AM radio!

NO—in MANY cases, nulled signal doesn’t stop at the sidebands!

WKRD Louisville, KY - 790kHz night pattern:
http://www.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/MB/Databases/AM_DA_patterns/305412-2687.pdf

WKRD transmitter location on map:
http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/map...IES,&off=streets,GRID,shorelin&ht=0.5&wid=0.5

WIOU Kokomo, IN – 1350kHz night pattern
http://www.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/MB/Databases/AM_DA_patterns/313046-19570.pdf

 

[Chuck]

Please read my comments concerinng deregulation and just how it destroyed station coverage, only in analogue mode. Destruction is destruction. To follow your logic, let's turn off all those stations which have started up in the last 20 years or so. Many have had a permanent impact on my listening habbits

So you think making matters worse by going down this road actually improves things? For better or worse, those stations exist.

If you go in with that attitude and don't feel you have a strong case (and if you read my earlier comment concerning a class action suit, not a go it alone action) then don't expect any sympathy from broadcasters who are doing what they feel is in their own best interest. After all, isn't that what we're talking about here?

We're talking about money. That is what it is all about. Maybe you don't have a hands on feel for the way the legal system actually works. My wife is an attorney. I've seen stuff happen that would make your toes curl. It usually isn't just a matter of right or wrong. The argument usually comes down to a single point of law that may be fairly unrelated to the original problem at hand. In this case, the facts are using IBOC, it is legal to interfere with another station outside of its protected contour. How do you think the court is going to rule if the interfering station is within the law? If you could prove interference within your protected contour, you stand a chance, but the IBOC standard is cleverly engineered to not do that, assuming everything is working properly. Because the encroached station has no legal right to the area beyond its Protected Contour, it makes this a "Catch 22" situation.

A class action suit might have some merit, but these things are usually very time consuming. A good defense attorney can postpone trials for years, making the damage permanent without ever having any legal decision about right or wrong. A defense tactic that actually works is delaying the trial for so long that the plaintiff can't remember what the original problem was. Really. After a few years, it ends up getting dismissed.

The guys with the biggest attorneys usually win. That is not usually the little guy.

Trust me, you aren't saying anyhting that everyone else who feels that they are barely holding on as it is hasn't already said.

I'm not barely holding on, but I think a lot of small broadcasters are. Further, it is the public who loses when they can no longer receive signals that they have previously been able to get with little or no problem.

 

[Tom Wells]

My head is spinning from seeing so many good points. I, too considered the weakening of the AM band plan destruction.
And for better or worse, these stations exist. If this venue had existed back then, I'd be complaining about that...

I was driving about 2PM today, and WLS 890 was running IBOC. I picked up the cell and rang them.
They answered (!?) after 5 rings. I told them they sure sounded awful today, all mushy and hissing, like I was listenin' from
200 hundred miles away, but still strong. They thanked me, and said they'd pass the comment along.

They had shut it off somewhere before 5, while the other HD AMs went till local sunset.

I will mourn the loss of what I still think was the best AM audio ever--- WLS.

 

[tomservo]

Have any other stations experimented with IBOC at night besides WOR?

A few nights ago listening to WWL on the skip I coulda swore I heard the buzz over the audio, but didn't know if it was from them, another station adjacent or what. It was present for the whole 15 minutes of listening I did in the car.

Let's turn this discussion around for a second. I keep hearing what HD does to adjacents on AM and FM, but what I haven't heard is how HD handles 1st adjacent interference.

On AM it might not be a big deal during the day, but what about FM?

Places up in the mountains often can get strong 1st adjacent signals - how will HD handle that? Will a radio lose the HD if there's one strong 1st adjacent on FM?

What about AM, during early mornings and afternoons, when conditions are still good?

 

[SUPERCASTER]

As I've stated before, if someone can prove that an HD station is operating illegally and interfering within a stations protected contour, then please contact the FCC. That's really at this point the only answer if you want to see HD transmisson stopped.

Properly implemented, HD will not cause interference within a station's protected contour.


If someone wants to "thin the herd" in radio, IBOC is a great way to do it. I suspect that is part of the plan.

Properly implemented HD AM interferes with the analog host itself on 50kw Non- directionals for about 200 miles.
I think this must include the primary protected contour.

Beyond that, it starts to sound like a regular AM analog, only with no high-frequency response.

The FCC will not enforce a station to stop interfering with itself...so WHAT'S the next step?

IBOC has ruined my (our) ability to receive clearly two AM 50kws, WGN and WBBM. There are others, but these two were useful to me.
Now, I will check them for news and such, but cannot leave them on due to the interference.

In market no. 3, this is MANY listeners now subjected to more hiss than dx'ers ever had to deal with.

This isn't exactly true. There are certain minimums which every station must maintain and that includes the 50 K non Directional stations. Report anything you feel is causing loss of service to the FCC. That's the only way to achive anything. Posting in here without doing anything serves almost no purpose, if you feel you are in the right.

Why one or the other?
Why not both, and more, as I have been doing?
What is not exactly true?