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HD STANDARD in Volvo of America cars in 2009
- Thread starter LasVegasRadioJunky
- Start date
clouseau said:
I think you may be confusing the word bias with the word opinion Inspector.
We all have our opinions which is what a board such as this is for. I see no unreasoning judgment here, nor do I see prejudice. Everyone here has had sufficient experience with the heartbreak of IBOC ;D to render an informed opinion.
This from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:
Opinion: 1 a: a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b: approval , esteem
2 a: belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b: a generally held view
Bias: 3 a: bent , tendency b: an inclination of temperament or outlook ; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment : prejudice c: an instance of such prejudice.
Prejudice: 2 a (1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
I will respond one more time because you continue to go around in circles. Let's recap.
Savage says announcement doesn't mean anything and we've heard it all before.
I say his take is "run through a filter".
He says "Nobody's running anything through any kind of filter".
I say that I think he is, because he's running a campaign against the IBOC system.
Savage says "Of COURSE I'm running a campaign." and proceeds to justify WHY. (I agree with your justification, BTW, Bob). As usual, I missed how this isn't "Through a filter" or "With a bias". (I can hear my first news director yelling at me right now).
So how do "I" tye this all up? Simple. Both you Savage and you KB have a bias against the product. A BIAS (For you MA Bob) as in a "bent , tendency" to not like it. Does that pass your politically correct hairsplitter? If you don't like it, FINE. Despite many poster actions, I've never considered this board a recruitment center for either side. As for others... I'm not so sure.
It was Sunday when I started this post, so let me head on back to engineering, and father (Note small "F"), let me conress my sins.
1) I confess, I like the idea of what HD radio is supposed to do. That is, "FM like" sound on AM (Sorta) and Really good sound on FM - or more channels. I think these are laudable ideas.
2) I confess to being a DXer. AM - FM even TV. I routinely drive those riding in my car crazy as I listen to a sporting event or station which is barely readable.
3) I also confess to understanding the radio business. I know NO ONE in the business of radio really cares about DX. AT ALL. I take off my "Radio Worker" hat and put on my "Radio enthusiast" one before I try this at home. And it works better in the car.
4) I confess that FMHD works OK when it works. And as you drive away from a station, sometimes it doesn't work all that well. I see NO DIFFERENCE in analog reception whether there is HD present or not. I have NEVER heard FMHD interference.
5) I confess to having limited listening experience with AMHD. I've decoded 2 different stations, one playing music. The music station, when in HD, knocked my socks off. Yep, there's lots of shortcomings in the sound, but they are minor when compared to the original analog. AMHD sounds a LOT crisper and cleaner than analog, IMHO.
So you see, father, I'm pretty much thinking the idea of HD radio is a good one. But I am still troubled. I have other confessions to make...
a) I confess to hearing an AMHD station on 550 causing a loud "WHOOSH" on a station at 560. Now neither of these stations is local where I am, but it was clearly there. Than again, I never heard any problems when in either of their service areas. But it DID limit my dx listening of 560. I also confess to hearing 1200, which is in HD. And what sounds like it "Might" be a whoosh on 1190. I can hear a distant station pretty clear on 1210, though. I'm so confused.
b) I also have to confess that I have thought the system was not very well implemented. There must be a better way. I've prayed about it a lot and haven't gotten a very good answer. My only solace was in a thread on an internet message board.
c) Lastly, I need to confess that I'm having a crisis of faith. That is, I'm losing faith in the industry I know and love. I've always known that radio was in a constant state of change. From the soap operas of Helen Trent to the original rock and roll sounds of those like Alan Freed to the Boss Jocks, the Q formats the 80's and even to Hot-AC. Radio did something no one ever thought it would for MY generation. It outlasted MTV. Not todays version of MTV. The Nina Blackwood, Martha Quinn version of MTV. But now, as "I" grow old, I wonder who will listen in the next new generation? Sorry, father. I got sidetracked.
I know this is where I'm supposed to say I'm sorry for what I have confessed. And I wish I was. I actually am, a little. But I think I'm sorry for the wrong reason. You see, I'm sorry many of these things have happened, but not sure I feel like I did them. Still, I beseech the holy trinity (NAB, FCC, M-O-U-S-E) to grant me their forgiveness and allow me to continue to be a fan of radio.
As we jump forward, I'm delighted to find out my pennance was 9 station ID's, 2 EAS tests, and a license renewal announcement. That, and to never post on this thread again.
(f)ather Ken also said when I was done with this post I should edit it one more time because any story is better if you edit it one more time. Screw it, I'll have something to confess next time.
Is it just me, or as I do this pennance, is the warmth of this solid state transmitter just not as comforting as that old Amplifuzz?
Clouseau
Savage says announcement doesn't mean anything and we've heard it all before.
I say his take is "run through a filter".
He says "Nobody's running anything through any kind of filter".
I say that I think he is, because he's running a campaign against the IBOC system.
Savage says "Of COURSE I'm running a campaign." and proceeds to justify WHY. (I agree with your justification, BTW, Bob). As usual, I missed how this isn't "Through a filter" or "With a bias". (I can hear my first news director yelling at me right now).
So how do "I" tye this all up? Simple. Both you Savage and you KB have a bias against the product. A BIAS (For you MA Bob) as in a "bent , tendency" to not like it. Does that pass your politically correct hairsplitter?
If you don't like it, FINE. Despite many poster actions, I've never considered this board a recruitment center for either side. As for others... I'm not so sure.It was Sunday when I started this post, so let me head on back to engineering, and father (Note small "F"), let me conress my sins.
1) I confess, I like the idea of what HD radio is supposed to do. That is, "FM like" sound on AM (Sorta) and Really good sound on FM - or more channels. I think these are laudable ideas.
2) I confess to being a DXer. AM - FM even TV. I routinely drive those riding in my car crazy as I listen to a sporting event or station which is barely readable.
3) I also confess to understanding the radio business. I know NO ONE in the business of radio really cares about DX. AT ALL. I take off my "Radio Worker" hat and put on my "Radio enthusiast" one before I try this at home. And it works better in the car.
4) I confess that FMHD works OK when it works. And as you drive away from a station, sometimes it doesn't work all that well. I see NO DIFFERENCE in analog reception whether there is HD present or not. I have NEVER heard FMHD interference.
5) I confess to having limited listening experience with AMHD. I've decoded 2 different stations, one playing music. The music station, when in HD, knocked my socks off. Yep, there's lots of shortcomings in the sound, but they are minor when compared to the original analog. AMHD sounds a LOT crisper and cleaner than analog, IMHO.
So you see, father, I'm pretty much thinking the idea of HD radio is a good one. But I am still troubled. I have other confessions to make...
a) I confess to hearing an AMHD station on 550 causing a loud "WHOOSH" on a station at 560. Now neither of these stations is local where I am, but it was clearly there. Than again, I never heard any problems when in either of their service areas. But it DID limit my dx listening of 560. I also confess to hearing 1200, which is in HD. And what sounds like it "Might" be a whoosh on 1190. I can hear a distant station pretty clear on 1210, though. I'm so confused.
b) I also have to confess that I have thought the system was not very well implemented. There must be a better way. I've prayed about it a lot and haven't gotten a very good answer. My only solace was in a thread on an internet message board.
c) Lastly, I need to confess that I'm having a crisis of faith. That is, I'm losing faith in the industry I know and love. I've always known that radio was in a constant state of change. From the soap operas of Helen Trent to the original rock and roll sounds of those like Alan Freed to the Boss Jocks, the Q formats the 80's and even to Hot-AC. Radio did something no one ever thought it would for MY generation. It outlasted MTV. Not todays version of MTV. The Nina Blackwood, Martha Quinn version of MTV. But now, as "I" grow old, I wonder who will listen in the next new generation? Sorry, father. I got sidetracked.
I know this is where I'm supposed to say I'm sorry for what I have confessed. And I wish I was. I actually am, a little. But I think I'm sorry for the wrong reason. You see, I'm sorry many of these things have happened, but not sure I feel like I did them. Still, I beseech the holy trinity (NAB, FCC, M-O-U-S-E) to grant me their forgiveness and allow me to continue to be a fan of radio.
As we jump forward, I'm delighted to find out my pennance was 9 station ID's, 2 EAS tests, and a license renewal announcement. That, and to never post on this thread again.
(f)ather Ken also said when I was done with this post I should edit it one more time because any story is better if you edit it one more time. Screw it, I'll have something to confess next time.
Is it just me, or as I do this pennance, is the warmth of this solid state transmitter just not as comforting as that old Amplifuzz?
Clouseau
The warmth of solid state devices is never as elegant, that's all that's different.
I filter first as an engineer. Then I have a choice whether I "like" something or not.
I'll admit I like the idea of what HD is supposed to do, and I will assure you that while FM iboc hiss is audible in analog listening,
for some radios and some quiet formats, it's not going to bother me that much.
I think the something better for AM was AMAX, CQuam and the symphony chipset.
There's nothing as foolish as ignoring obvious solutions.
When something doesn't pass my engineering judgement, and it creates a problem where none existed before,
it makes it very hard for me to do anything other than oppose it as strongly as possible and explain for others
to help them understand the why not of an issue when we all know such matters are minimized by marketing hyperbole.
Does this give me a bias, or with a radio engineering do I get credit for some positive knowledge?
WGN still has the iboc off as of this morning, KB1OKL, and I doubt it was on last night.
You were probably hearing 710 get hammered by WLW 700, I think they're still running it at night.
I filter first as an engineer. Then I have a choice whether I "like" something or not.
I'll admit I like the idea of what HD is supposed to do, and I will assure you that while FM iboc hiss is audible in analog listening,
for some radios and some quiet formats, it's not going to bother me that much.
I think the something better for AM was AMAX, CQuam and the symphony chipset.
There's nothing as foolish as ignoring obvious solutions.
When something doesn't pass my engineering judgement, and it creates a problem where none existed before,
it makes it very hard for me to do anything other than oppose it as strongly as possible and explain for others
to help them understand the why not of an issue when we all know such matters are minimized by marketing hyperbole.
Does this give me a bias, or with a radio engineering do I get credit for some positive knowledge?
WGN still has the iboc off as of this morning, KB1OKL, and I doubt it was on last night.
You were probably hearing 710 get hammered by WLW 700, I think they're still running it at night.
Savage said:
C'mon Bob, If you have all of the truth on your side it shouldn't be neccessary to fatten up your arguments with half truths. CBS Radio is a small part of the CBS Corp (It's CBS Corp stock, not CBS radio stock). So you think CBS is doing poorly? As a company they have a debt load under 1%. Compare that with Sirius/XM with a debt load of 146%. How about Westwood One which CBS is no longer involved with and has nothing to do with HD. Its stock can be purchased for 2 cents a share and as of today has been delisted from the NY Stock Exchange. Cumulus Media, owner of ABC Radio is selling for 52 cents! HD radio is not having a negative impact on CBS Radio, as a president I liked, but you didn't once said, It's The Economy Stupid!. No, I am not calling you stupid but I think your dislike of this technology has warped your view of reality.
I stand corrected on the issue of CBS corporate stock. The rest of my argument, I stand behind.
I didn't suggest that CBS Radio is doing poorly because of its interest in HD. I'm saying its idiotic corporate stance in mutually annihilating its own heritage signals with its own HD products - we're talking 1010, 1020 and 1030 for example - is symptomatic of why the company is doing poorly. Nobody is listening to their AMs in HD, nobody cares, yet they wring their hands about how their (almost 100% analog) audiences are eroding. So: let's make them HARDER to listen to by limiting bandpass and raising the noise floor! It's just stupid. Their own engineers, except for Walden and a handful of CBS engineering bootlickers totally agree, BTW.
When CBS sold off its Rochester properties Entercom spun them, and we looked into reacquiring a smaller FM (we initially put it on the air in 1993) which was part of the package. Because the three spinoffs had to be sold only as a group, that priced the bunch out of our reach, but I got to look at the books. How CBS was running that cluster was absurd. Overspending wildly in every imaginable way, underperforming in sales, everywhere you looked - just dumber than dumb. I know: some little Avon AM guys thinks he's got all the answers, right? Not if you talk to any other sane manager with knowledge of the facts. They agree.
Thanks, RF, for reassuring me that you're not calling me stupid. I don't think you're stupid either. Also thanks for your concern about my "view of reality," but I like my view just fine - especially if you compare it with the incredible myopia of HD-pushers. Want an accurate perspective? Ask any industry observer, who doesn't have a dog in the fight, how HD looks to them. Most think it's totally crazy. Read RW this week and JD Russ' account of the Philadelphia HD situation. It's not improving. Its unravelling, faster and faster.
"Your view of reality may vary." History will vindicate somebody here. So, we'll see. In the year or so I've been writing about HD Radio, the trend has been decidedly in my favor, from any objective measure.
I didn't suggest that CBS Radio is doing poorly because of its interest in HD. I'm saying its idiotic corporate stance in mutually annihilating its own heritage signals with its own HD products - we're talking 1010, 1020 and 1030 for example - is symptomatic of why the company is doing poorly. Nobody is listening to their AMs in HD, nobody cares, yet they wring their hands about how their (almost 100% analog) audiences are eroding. So: let's make them HARDER to listen to by limiting bandpass and raising the noise floor! It's just stupid. Their own engineers, except for Walden and a handful of CBS engineering bootlickers totally agree, BTW.
When CBS sold off its Rochester properties Entercom spun them, and we looked into reacquiring a smaller FM (we initially put it on the air in 1993) which was part of the package. Because the three spinoffs had to be sold only as a group, that priced the bunch out of our reach, but I got to look at the books. How CBS was running that cluster was absurd. Overspending wildly in every imaginable way, underperforming in sales, everywhere you looked - just dumber than dumb. I know: some little Avon AM guys thinks he's got all the answers, right? Not if you talk to any other sane manager with knowledge of the facts. They agree.
Thanks, RF, for reassuring me that you're not calling me stupid. I don't think you're stupid either. Also thanks for your concern about my "view of reality," but I like my view just fine - especially if you compare it with the incredible myopia of HD-pushers. Want an accurate perspective? Ask any industry observer, who doesn't have a dog in the fight, how HD looks to them. Most think it's totally crazy. Read RW this week and JD Russ' account of the Philadelphia HD situation. It's not improving. Its unravelling, faster and faster.
"Your view of reality may vary." History will vindicate somebody here. So, we'll see. In the year or so I've been writing about HD Radio, the trend has been decidedly in my favor, from any objective measure.
Savage said:
I'm not going to make any predictions Bob but let me tell you that here in NYC WFAN, WINS, & WCBS, all CBS owned AM properties are being simulcast on 3 CBS owned FM HD 3 channels. Meanwhile all 3 NY 1A's are running HD 24/7. WCBS FM is running Christmas music on its analog/HD1 channel and its normal format on its HD 2 channel. At least here in NYC HD radio has been showing growth. I'm not going to debate this issue with you because there is no answer that either of us could provide that would satisfy the other. First let me wish you a happy, healthy Thanksgiving and second if that was you on Bootleg Top 40, you were a excellent top 40 jock. Do you miss it?
Thanks, RF. Likewise I send heartfelt and sincere Thanksgiving wishes to you and your family.
I'd like to just say how thankful I am, that we all live here in The Greatest Country On Earth, where we enjoy basic freedoms and a prosperity which enables us to have time to joust with each other (for the most part, good-naturedly) about subjects as esoteric as HD Radio. (You know. As opposed to prying bark off of trees in some dank forest to make soup.)
God, you have blessed each of us to an incredible degree. I give Thanks for the opportunities you make available to us in bewildering abundance.
Hopefully the moderator won't toss this post as off-subject. Yep, that was me on the Second Bootleg Top 40. And I have been known to "fill" in between weekend collegiate games by spinning a few tunes. I still have my Clevite-Brush headsets!!
I'd like to just say how thankful I am, that we all live here in The Greatest Country On Earth, where we enjoy basic freedoms and a prosperity which enables us to have time to joust with each other (for the most part, good-naturedly) about subjects as esoteric as HD Radio. (You know. As opposed to prying bark off of trees in some dank forest to make soup.)
God, you have blessed each of us to an incredible degree. I give Thanks for the opportunities you make available to us in bewildering abundance.
Hopefully the moderator won't toss this post as off-subject. Yep, that was me on the Second Bootleg Top 40. And I have been known to "fill" in between weekend collegiate games by spinning a few tunes. I still have my Clevite-Brush headsets!!
RF Burns, invested owners (CBS) adding HD stations is called supporting your investment and would be a poor and misleading yardstick to measure HD’s growth. It’s obvious CBS would be adding stations, meeting their contractual obligations.
A truer yardstick of grow would include, consumers purchasing HD radios, as in ipod, or Satellite radio mass consumption. A second yardstick would be ratings and the third, advertiser supported revenues. Using these measures to accurately reflect growth of HD, one can safely say growth is flat or nonexistent.
In addition, considering broadcast owners are struggling to just stay alive, it’s doubtful groups not invested with iBiquity will likely invest funds for new HD startups.
Considering $100.00 equals food for some families, it’s doubtful 2008 or 2009 will
will be a sales buster year for iBiquity.
HD radio serves it’s owners for one purpose to increase profits. Without significant listeners, ratings, or revenues, HD serves no purpose.
A truer yardstick of grow would include, consumers purchasing HD radios, as in ipod, or Satellite radio mass consumption. A second yardstick would be ratings and the third, advertiser supported revenues. Using these measures to accurately reflect growth of HD, one can safely say growth is flat or nonexistent.
In addition, considering broadcast owners are struggling to just stay alive, it’s doubtful groups not invested with iBiquity will likely invest funds for new HD startups.
Considering $100.00 equals food for some families, it’s doubtful 2008 or 2009 will
will be a sales buster year for iBiquity.
HD radio serves it’s owners for one purpose to increase profits. Without significant listeners, ratings, or revenues, HD serves no purpose.
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