Heard my first HD radio today, a Sangien HDR-1

[KB1OKL]

I heard my first HD radio today, a Sangien HDR-1 radio which I assume is supposed to be one of the best. First of all I could not hear any improvement over analog FM in this radio, in fact I think analog FM sounds smoother. I was maybe 5 miles from downtown Boston in You Do It Electronics. I was able to receive about 4 HD-1 channels and one HD-2 channel, maybe two (the second had nothing on it). This was with a balled up 30" piece of wire, un-balling it and holding it out improved reception somewhat but not a lot. To be fair I was in the shadows of the channel 5 WCVB tV towers so the tuner section seemed pretty good. The salesman couldn't find the remote and wouldn't open another one (understandably as he knew I wasn't going to buy one, so I could not check out the AM performance, he said they got no AM reception in the building anyway.
Anyway I suspect I was no farther than 10 miles from any of the transmitting towers and could check as I remember the stations I heard but would be a PIA.
I could not hear WZLX 100.7 in HD at all which is surprising considering their aggressive (compared to all the other stations) HD stance (radio with a boob job etc.)
Any way I was surprised that I got anything in at all even though I was so close to the towers but on the other hand the sound was not an improvement over analog to me at all. I was quite underwhelmed, this was on sale from 250.00 to 200.00 BTW and they had several on the shelves (opened ;D)
I now understand first hand why HD has been a total bomb, who would pay 250 dollars for something that has marginal reception and doesn't even sound as good as a Walkman? I have been reading about the dramatic improvement in sound from certain people here and elsewhere (improved noise floor, eerily quiet etc.) and consider myself to have pretty good ears. I heard a tinny, grainy sounding radio, even my Bose Wave radio sounds MUCH better. I did not hear this dramatic opening of the spectrum of frequency response and clarity, bla, bla, bla, that has been ballied about here and elsewhere so much, the CD quality sound which has been thrown around, if it didn't say HD on it I never would have known, in fact I would have thought what an expensive POS this thing is.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I'd give a couple of comments - surprisingly in defense of HD here. First of all, the decrease in noise floor is noticable on a good home setup. Also gone is that annoying roll off at 50 Hz and 15 kHz, which the high end I can't hear any more, but it does affect the clarity of musical harmonics. For all the good it does because the compression algorithm - especially on stations utilizing HD-2 - is really poor. But an HD-1 only station, I can't tell the difference between CD and FM. Not that CD is all that great, but that is an argument for vinyl and 30 ips tape vs. CD, not one for a debate on HD radio.

I think the poster couldn't tell any difference because the Sangean HDR is a table radio, I saw one in a store and the speakers are all of four inches. Not exactly the type of speaker through which one could hear below 50 Hz, and definitely not a listening environment where you could hear the noise floor.

Reception of HD even with a crumpled up dipole at 5 to 10 miles should work, considering I've done it at 70 miles with a properly extended dipole (which brings up the question - WHY in the WORLD do they need a power increase?) Anyway, the HDR I saw was in a Sharper Image in Colorado Springs, and I could literally look out the window and see the towers on the side of the mountain. Maybe one or two stations trying to lock on HD - but otherwise no go. That was at about 8 to 10 miles, so reception with a poorly installed dipole at 10 miles is probably iffy.

As for AM, I just don't know why stores won't at least put 10 feet or so of junk wire on one of the terminals and give AM a fighting chance. Granted the signal robustness is not good - and AM HD is just screaming for more power - but that would make the whole band unlistenable. I don't see anything short of a new band making AM HD work. With that said, the HDT-1X, the bigger brother of the HDR, does AM HD fairly well. I am starting to be of the opinion that the one local station which hardly works at all, even with an 8 foot loop, must be doing something terribly wrong because the other HD stations all seem to work with much smaller loops, some even with the ridiculously undersized 4 inch loop. So perhaps I should not judge signal robustness on AM so harshly based on one bad station. 30 to 40 miles, and much farther has been reported daytime with car radios. But - any hint of first adjacent modulation and the lock vanishes. Which is bad news for nighttime HD. I've never had a lock on anything out of town at night.

About the only thing HD has going for it is the HD-2 stations, and someone wanting a niche format will probably listen to the ridiculous 4 inch "woofers". If the HD proponents wanted to get this thing off the ground, I think the upscale table radio market was decidedly the wrong market to go after. I can't help but think that a $50 boom box with all kinds of HD-2's on it would have sold much better than these overpriced trendy pieces of junk that - by their very nature - are as sensitive as a deaf ear and therefore never had a chance of HD. At least in a boom box, you can put a whip for FM and there is plenty of room for a larger AM loop. Personally, I'd have put a fractal dipole in for FM, and an 8 to 10 inch loop behind one of the speakers. HD would work plenty well in something like that, probably 35 to 40 miles on FM and maybe even more for AM. One of those tiny boxes for a table radio - there is no room for a decent antenna.

 

[Play Freebird]

I heard my first HD radio today, a Sangien HDR-1 radio which I assume is supposed to be one of the best. First of all I could not hear any improvement over analog FM in this radio, in fact I think analog FM sounds smoother. I was maybe 5 miles from downtown Boston in You Do It Electronics.
I did not hear this dramatic opening of the spectrum of frequency response and clarity, bla, bla, bla, that has been ballied about here and elsewhere so much, the CD quality sound which has been thrown around, if it didn't say HD on it I never would have known, in fact I would have thought what an expensive POS this thing is.

Your opinion is typical. The distribution of "1 to 5 star" ratings on Amazon.com should tell you a lot about the HDR-1:

http://www.amazon.com/Sangean-HDR-1-Table-Radio-Receiver/dp/B000J171MK

On the other hand, I recently purchased a Sangean WFR-20 WiFi radio (to monitor a webcaster I'm working with) and highly recommend it for both audio quality and ease of use. Amazon reviewers apparently agree; out of 36 reviews, 23 gave it "5 stars" and another nine gave it "4 stars".

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

I heard my first HD radio today, a Sangien HDR-1 radio which I assume is supposed to be one of the best. First of all I could not hear any improvement over analog FM in this radio, in fact I think analog FM sounds smoother. I was maybe 5 miles from downtown Boston in You Do It Electronics. I was able to receive about 4 HD-1 channels and one HD-2 channel, maybe two (the second had nothing on it). This was with a balled up 30" piece of wire, un-balling it and holding it out improved reception somewhat but not a lot. To be fair I was in the shadows of the channel 5 WCVB tV towers so the tuner section seemed pretty good. The salesman couldn't find the remote and wouldn't open another one (understandably as he knew I wasn't going to buy one, so I could not check out the AM performance, he said they got no AM reception in the building anyway.
Anyway I suspect I was no farther than 10 miles from any of the transmitting towers and could check as I remember the stations I heard but would be a PIA.
I could not hear WZLX 100.7 in HD at all which is surprising considering their aggressive (compared to all the other stations) HD stance (radio with a boob job etc.)
Any way I was surprised that I got anything in at all even though I was so close to the towers but on the other hand the sound was not an improvement over analog to me at all. I was quite underwhelmed, this was on sale from 250.00 to 200.00 BTW and they had several on the shelves (opened ;D)
I now understand first hand why HD has been a total bomb, who would pay 250 dollars for something that has marginal reception and doesn't even sound as good as a Walkman? I have been reading about the dramatic improvement in sound from certain people here and elsewhere (improved noise floor, eerily quiet etc.) and consider myself to have pretty good ears. I heard a tinny, grainy sounding radio, even my Bose Wave radio sounds MUCH better. I did not hear this dramatic opening of the spectrum of frequency response and clarity, bla, bla, bla, that has been ballied about here and elsewhere so much, the CD quality sound which has been thrown around, if it didn't say HD on it I never would have known, in fact I would have thought what an expensive POS this thing is.

You were in a bad position to be evaluating this radio, as Who-Done-It Electronics is almost directly underneath the FM-128 tower and less than a mile from the candelabra and the WGBH/WBZ/WCVB TV tower. The area along 128 between the Turnpike and Great Plain Avenue is an intermod and blanketing minefield, which is probably the reason you couldn't hear WZLX in HD (they transmit from the Prudential building downtown).

 

[KB1OKL]

You were in a bad position to be evaluating this radio, as Who-Done-It Electronics is almost directly underneath the FM-128 tower and less than a mile from the candelabra and the WGBH/WBZ/WCVB TV tower.

Well that explains why WGBH was so clear then, I obviously know the towers are there but thought they were only WCBV TV.

The area along 128 between the Turnpike and Great Plain Avenue is an intermod and blanketing minefield, which is probably the reason you couldn't hear WZLX in HD (they transmit from the Prudential building downtown).

FM 128 antenna? That explains why I got so many HD stations, WODS was in very good too, that's two of my 4 IBOC stations within one mile. I thought WZLX had moved or was it just the studio?

I wasn't complaining about the reception, I thought it was fairly good for an IBOC radio which the FM 128 explains ;D, it was the lousy sound and it wasn't just because of the speakers, my Bose wave has smaller speakers and sounds much better than this one did and I'm not talking frequency response I didn't expect great bass from it, the midrange and treble also sounded lousy, the whole sound of the radio just wasn't that great, maybe the radio was a bit overloaded from all that RF I don't know, but I wasn't impressed at all and would not buy one. If this is the HD sound it explains why they are not selling, I will try another one out though

 

[KB1OKL]

Not that CD is all that great, but that is an argument for vinyl and 30 ips tape vs. CD, not one for a debate on HD radio.

I don't think that needs any argument, CD's are second in many sound categories to me. Their convenience is their best attribute.

 

[staticradio]

Re: Heard my first HD radio today, a Sangean HDR-1

I have the Sangean HDT-1 (I don't know how well the reception is with table-top radios in wood frame houses...only tested them at big box retailers), and get all FM HD 1 & 2 (sometimes 3) channels. Bought it through eBay for $110. It helps more so with vocals, as one particular station sounds muddled in analog (but that could be dependent on the analog tuner I use to pass-through the HDT-1).

I also use this antenna for both HD Radio and HDTV:

http://images.electrogalaxy.com/catalogimages/rcaant130.jpg

I believe HD Radio should be used more for repeated programming, live shows, national shows (i.e. e-town, et al.)...then just a jukebox with a sweeper every 20 minutes. Granted, most will be canned programming, but seems slightly better then song after song. I usually listen to the public stations, and their sub-channels (i.e. BBC World, et al.).

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Well that explains why WGBH was so clear then, I obviously know the towers are there but thought they were only WCBV TV.

WGBH-FM (grandfathered at 98 kW ERP in Class B country) still transmits from its namesake location, Great Blue Hill in Milton. WGBH(TV) and WGBX(TV) transmit from the CBS tower in Wellesley, which is near enough to YDI to blanket it. There were a few FMs on the CBS tower, but when it was rebuilt and re-guyed for HDTV, all the FMs were kicked off...not enough real estate.

FM 128 antenna? That explains why I got so many HD stations, WODS was in very good too, that's two of my 4 IBOC stations within one mile. I thought WZLX had moved or was it just the studio?

WODS is on FM-128, so you were right under it. WZLX transmits from the Pru, and their studios were combined with WODS on Leo Birmingham Parkway in Brighton last year. WCRB, WBUR and WBMX are also on FM-128.

 

[hipporadio]

In regards to the Sangean HDR-1 table HD radio... I have had my hands on this radio – courtesy of a neighbor of my parents – both with homes on Fripp Island, SC [half-way between Charleston and Savanna] – and I was appreciative of its performance IN NON-HD MODE! Sidebar: I own [AND LOVE] the Sangean WR-2 MONO table radio [with CCRadio-Plus RF circuits, an 8-watt amp, premium speaker, and BETTER audio quality than the severely-hyped and overpriced Bose] for about ONE-HUNDRED dollars less than the HD-incapable HDR-1... Nonetheless! I found a prior post here at R-I where I detailed to a Sangean rep who formerly visited this board – the HDR-1's HD and analog performance...

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,75960.msg563206.html#msg563206

I have concluded that the Sangean HDR-1 basically-shares the same DSP and HD RF module with the heralded HDT-1 component tuner – although the table model is obviously less “tweaked” - with only a “pedestrian” under 2w/ch stereo amp and smallish speakers. Despite, it’s as fine an HD table radio out there, and scores additional points for its ANALOG FM agility – it’s an FM reception champ – with unprecedented adjacent-channel selectivity given the form-factor. AM performance in analog was better than “garden variety” [I couldn’t observe HD on that band as there are no stations in the South Carolina LowCountry that are IBOC-incapable].

I might take some issue with you, KB – that the HDR-1 has “lousy” sound quality – that wasn’t my observation of this radio... It WAS NOT as pleasing as Sangean’s mono analog WR-2, the Tivoli Model One, or mono BA Receptor - but better than MANY other radios within that category – including the now-discontinued Sony HD table radio [that one lasted for record-short era ].

Still, I wouldn’t buy an HDR-1 at “retail”

 

[KB1OKL]

I might take some issue with you, KB – that the HDR-1 has “lousy” sound quality – that wasn’t my observation of this radio... It WAS NOT as pleasing as Sangean’s mono analog WR-2, the Tivoli Model One, or mono BA Receptor - but better than MANY other radios within that category – including the now-discontinued Sony HD table radio [that one lasted for record-short era ].

Still, I wouldn’t buy an HDR-1 at “retail”

I had heard that it had a good analog FM section, which it did seem to have and as for the sound quality it may have been overloaded as I was in RF city and didn't realize it, I didn't know there were FM stations on that tower less than a mile away. I wouldn't buy one at retail either, in fact I am still quite underwhelmed.
I will try to find another one however and re-evaluate it. This one was about 35 miles from my home BTW.
I still liked the idea someone had last month of buying one and sharing it. I would like to evaluate one in my home but for sure am not going to spend that kind of money for a receiver which I already know will probably get 1 or 2 stations from my house if it is lucky. Besides I got a mint 240 RMS @ 4 ohms per channel Marantz 2385 which is not getting replaced anytime soon. And I got the Meduci coming.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

The HDR-1 has lousy sound quality? Okay, now I know someone's either hittin' the hooch, or was listening in a store where you can NEVER know how a receiver will really sound in a home environment. The sound quality falls shy of a $500 Bose, but it's not lousy.

As for HD Radio sound quality versus analog FM, of my 20 local HD Radio stations, 5 of them sound significantly better in HD Radio than analog FM. The others, I suspect, are using the same processing (maybe even the same entire audio chain), and sound almost identical except for a lower noise floor. I can always hear background hiss on 91.5 WBEZ and 107.5 WGCI Chicago in analog, but when the HDR-1 flips to HD Radio, the noise floor drops completely, and the audio quality noticeably improves. The effect is similar for Q-101.1, 104.3 Jack FM, and US-99.5. I am only using an Archer portable dipole antenna, 40 miles from my Chicago HD Radio stations, and I get most of them with full reliability. So, is this truly worth $250? For just HD Radio, probably not, but this is a decent analog/DX receiver too.

If HD Radio shut down everywhere tomorrow, I would still keep my HDR-1. The FM selectivity is excellent, sensitivity is pretty good, and it sniffs out RDS quite well, even for stations using lower injection levels. I have a 50kW station at 99.9 a few miles away, and another mini-flamethrower on 102.3 exactly 1 mile away across a farm field, running HD Radio. The latter station causes many of my other FM receivers to overload. My Radio Shack DX-394 breaks into oscillation unless I keep the antenna completely collapsed., and my Sony clock radio gets 102.3 across the entire dial! Nevertheless, the Sangean HDR-1 deals very will with these local signals. There is almost no sign of front-end overload, and there are no images. All of my reception levels were the same during a recent outage at 102.3. 99.9 doesn't run HD Radio, and I can often get clear tropo-DX signals on 99.7 and 100.1.

 

[hipporadio]

Philip,

I share your impression with the Sangean HDR-1. I am a fan of Sangean-produced receivers – particularly on AM. In real-world evaluation, the HDR-1 exhibited some of the best FM adjacent-channel selectivity I have witnessed in a table radio... It literally “grabbed” and “locked” on distant signals. It’s a notable performer IN ANALOG MODE, and has a decent AM section to boot. I liked it, and would like it to sell [HD or not]!

I’m happy that Sangean is gaining in business, and I applaud their products... I wish MORE would buy their products [C Crane has helped]... AM radio may benefit from their innovation!

Let's support these good companies that try, and let's keep them around... They are a blessing to radio!

 

[PhilJSmith67]

Oh yeah, I didn't even mention the AM side, which works very well. I can listen to 880 WCBS New York at night with 890 WLS only 19 miles away. I have been listening to 650 WSM regularly since I bought the HDR-1, with decent audio quality.

 

[hipporadio]

‘Just got a daily-bubble... HD Radio ranker in the consumer electronics kingdom - It's NOT EVEN ON THE CHART That means few [if any] sales form "the folks". Great job, “HD Alliance”... You are selling few-if-any receivers. HD Radio is sinking into an abyss and AM HD crys-for an FCC desist order – in the interest of saving the band from additional and detrimental interference. This madness needs to cease... “The Nation’s Station –WLW” sounds like CRAP with IBOC engaged... Hey, Kenwood – SHUT IT OFF – and do yourself a BIG-ONE favor! I'm starting to hate my AM because of IBOC... 'Just STOP IT!

 

[Chuck]

I suspect that a lot of the recent sales of HD radios have gone to people who buy them for their superior analog properties. I have alerted several friends to the fire sale at Best Buy on the Sony HD radio. Everyone who has purchased one has been quite pleased with the analog performance. One friend, an admitted DXer, lives in a hot spot for radio reception. With his 50’ high super fringe area antenna and rotor, he can get DFW stations on the Sony. He related his experience this way: "My Sony continues to blow me away. Thanks to you for telling me about the super deal at Best Buy. Now that I've heard HD, it's unbelievable how many perfectly horrible music sub-channels there are. It is a complete waste of their time."

That quote is posted here with my friend's permission. I think it sums it up as far as a listening experience goes.

 

[KB1OKL]

The HDR-1 has lousy sound quality? Okay, now I know someone's either hittin' the hooch, or was listening in a store where you can NEVER know how a receiver will really sound in a home environment. The sound quality falls shy of a $500 Bose, but it's not lousy.

As for HD Radio sound quality versus analog FM, of my 20 local HD Radio stations, 5 of them sound significantly better in HD Radio than analog FM. The others, I suspect, are using the same processing (maybe even the same entire audio chain), and sound almost identical except for a lower noise floor. I can always hear background hiss on 91.5 WBEZ and 107.5 WGCI Chicago in analog, but when the HDR-1 flips to HD Radio, the noise floor drops completely, and the audio quality noticeably improves. The effect is similar for Q-101.1, 104.3 Jack FM, and US-99.5. I am only using an Archer portable dipole antenna, 40 miles from my Chicago HD Radio stations, and I get most of them with full reliability. So, is this truly worth $250? For just HD Radio, probably not, but this is a decent analog/DX receiver too.

If HD Radio shut down everywhere tomorrow, I would still keep my HDR-1. The FM selectivity is excellent, sensitivity is pretty good, and it sniffs out RDS quite well, even for stations using lower injection levels. I have a 50kW station at 99.9 a few miles away, and another mini-flamethrower on 102.3 exactly 1 mile away across a farm field, running HD Radio. The latter station causes many of my other FM receivers to overload. My Radio Shack DX-394 breaks into oscillation unless I keep the antenna completely collapsed., and my Sony clock radio gets 102.3 across the entire dial! Nevertheless, the Sangean HDR-1 deals very will with these local signals. There is almost no sign of front-end overload, and there are no images. All of my reception levels were the same during a recent outage at 102.3. 99.9 doesn't run HD Radio, and I can often get clear tropo-DX signals on 99.7 and 100.1.

I received WODS very well (which was on the tower less than a mile away but many others sounded a little distorted like the radio was either not receiving them well or was overloaded by the intense RF field I was in. I also encountered drop outs and the radio seemed to take a long time to lock onto any HD station, forget quick band scanning on that one, I found it very easy to go by an HD station unless I knew it was there with that radio which I'm sure is the same with all HD radios. I am very fussy with sound, my main receiver is a Marantz 2385 with double large Advents, now THAT sounds good to me. My Bose is for me a utilitarian alarm clock which happens to play CD's. I brought it to Peru when I lived there for a year 4 or 5 years ago and it was my main receiver so I got very used to it and it's deficiency's, Peru is also RF city and it never got overloaded though but then again it's not exactly the most sensitive FM radio I've ever owned and it's AM section is terrible. To me the Sangien had a tinny sound to it, like most new radios do. I don't doubt that it has a good tuner section in it and I was impressed at first but not enough to go out and buy one which as you pointed out would be the only way to accurately assess it's performance. I did want to assess it's AM performance but the remote was lost and the salesman wouldn't open another one even though the boxes were already open. I think the only station I received in full quieting was WODS and that did sound good. To be fair all my listening was done with a 30" piece of wire which was balled up at first, got a little better when I started moving it around. Now this was not in a Best Buy, this was in an electronics store where you'd think the people who worked there would be savvy enough to install an antenna or at least extend the wire antenna, either they don't care which is most likely the case or they don't care ;D At least the salesman did point out the RF field although he didn't tell me that there were FM radio stations on those towers I though it was all Channel 5.
I will tell you one thing, that radio was kind of complex. especially for the average soccer mom, you know the kind who don't know there is an AM and FM switch on radios ;D. It took me a while playing with it to figure out how to get the sub channels and if I wasn't quick enough the radio would change frequency on me. This radio was not very intuitive especially to Joe Blow who wants a radio to set up for the ball game. All in all I don't think that IBOC is a very consumer friendly thing. I think maybe a certain subset of hobbyists may like it, people who like to tinker, but the average person? Don't think so. After all these years most people still don't realize (or care) that you have to move rabbit ears to receive TV stations and yes they are still out there. Most people want something they can plug in and forget and have it work perfectly. BTW this was one out of about 20-30 radios set up and I really had to look for it.

 

[hipporadio]

The discontinued Sony appears to be good on analog FM... LESS-SO on AM [is that surprising considering the Sony label]. My primary question is: Why did this product disappear in less than six months ? That’s an all-time record for Sony nixing a member of their roster. Consider that they “hung-out” with AM Stereo for THREE YEARS [HD Radio for SIX MONTHS]... What does that say?

It is time for this “science fair project” to be sent to the back of it’s classroom... We need a SERIOUS dialogue on TRUE ALTERNATIVES. We need to shut-off the “hash machine” on AM and revisit a high quality audio alternative for the FM band that WORKS.