Here come the complaints...

[Tom Wells]

Tomorrow through friday of this week I will be in Jersey City, so I will have good chance to hear exactly what this sounds like.
I plan to do some driving around, too. Only thing not in my control will be rental car radio bandwidth.
If I can avoid a GM product, I will, for the sake of bandwidth on AM.

I already know not to base Manhattan or Long Island reception on what I hear in Jersey.

I suspect I will find WCBS in "compliance", with enough strength on 890-894 to wipe out most cheap radios tuned to 920,
especially those more to the southern region. I expect the car radio will be OK with this situation.

WRKL isn't licensed to serve Jersey City. The station is located on Rt 202 in Pomona NY, which is north of their licensed New City (The county seat). Jersey City is nearly 40 miles from WRKL's Transmitter site. I'd guess if you are coming into NJ via air you'll land at Newark airport. As long as you're tuning around why not check out 1 KW, WFAS on 1230. they are closer to NYC and they have almost no signal into much of NYC. Repeating what I've said over and over here; If the transmission is clean and within spec, which WCBS AM is and there are millions of faulty receivers, it's the fault of the radios. For all of these faulty radios which people speak of (and claiming that your 1930 Radiola has trouble is of no concern to that vast majority of the public and anyway, RCA no longer supports the Radiola) Every radio I own and I have all types, has no problems with IBOC. The only outrage I hear expressed is from the anti IBOC crowd and these very small stations who are afraid they will lose their deep fringe audience. The listeners have said nothing. I've read no complaints on any of the local talk shows or read of any complaints in the newspapers.

I can read a map, and yes I understand WRKL isn't licensed to serve Jersey City.

This is far from my first trip to New Jersey, and I am quite familiar with the crowded conditions on the dial.

A RCA 1930 radiola would most likely be selective enough to not have problem with 3rd adjacents.
The lower IF frequencies used in early superhets made selectivity easier to achieve.
RCA does not need to support the Radiola. It was so well designed it is still a good, usable radio 70 years later.
Like most radios, it was built of discrete parts, and can be supported by the regular repair aftermarket.

Outrage is in the ear of the beholder.
I'm sure the multitudes of pigeons fouling congested urban areas are in compliance, too.

My observations will be fairly presented.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

I found this on another site and THIS says it all about this case;


WRKL's Side;

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518808409


http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518912523


http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518913456



And WCBS's response;

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518919218

Try looking at the first post on page 1 of THIS message thread.

As for WRKL, inserting Radio-Locator maps in an FCC filing is the height of stupidity. If you wish to establish any credibility with the FCC, you don't use coverage maps labeled "for entertainment use only."

 

[R.F. Burns]

Tomorrow through friday of this week I will be in Jersey City, so I will have good chance to hear exactly what this sounds like.
I plan to do some driving around, too. Only thing not in my control will be rental car radio bandwidth.
If I can avoid a GM product, I will, for the sake of bandwidth on AM.

I already know not to base Manhattan or Long Island reception on what I hear in Jersey.

I suspect I will find WCBS in "compliance", with enough strength on 890-894 to wipe out most cheap radios tuned to 920,
especially those more to the southern region. I expect the car radio will be OK with this situation.

WRKL isn't licensed to serve Jersey City. The station is located on Rt 202 in Pomona NY, which is north of their licensed New City (The county seat). Jersey City is nearly 40 miles from WRKL's Transmitter site. I'd guess if you are coming into NJ via air you'll land at Newark airport. As long as you're tuning around why not check out 1 KW, WFAS on 1230. they are closer to NYC and they have almost no signal into much of NYC. Repeating what I've said over and over here; If the transmission is clean and within spec, which WCBS AM is and there are millions of faulty receivers, it's the fault of the radios. For all of these faulty radios which people speak of (and claiming that your 1930 Radiola has trouble is of no concern to that vast majority of the public and anyway, RCA no longer supports the Radiola) Every radio I own and I have all types, has no problems with IBOC. The only outrage I hear expressed is from the anti IBOC crowd and these very small stations who are afraid they will lose their deep fringe audience. The listeners have said nothing. I've read no complaints on any of the local talk shows or read of any complaints in the newspapers.

I can read a map, and yes I understand WRKL isn't licensed to serve Jersey City.

This is far from my first trip to New Jersey, and I am quite familiar with the crowded conditions on the dial.

A RCA 1930 radiola would most likely be selective enough to not have problem with 3rd adjacents.
The lower IF frequencies used in early superhets made selectivity easier to achieve.
RCA does not need to support the Radiola. It was so well designed it is still a good, usable radio 70 years later.
Like most radios, it was built of discrete parts, and can be supported by the regular repair aftermarket.

Outrage is in the ear of the beholder.
I'm sure the multitudes of pigeons fouling congested urban areas are in compliance, too.

My observations will be fairly presented.

Glad to hear you know Jersey City. I was born at the Margaret Hague Hospital but that's 51 years ago. The laws are pretty simple here and WCBS has tested their sidebands are down 72 DB or so at 910 Khz and by law they need only be down 35 DB. If people own faulty radios then it is up to them to purchase proper receivers. I keep hearing about these radios and yet, every radio I own receives a clean signal from both WRKL and WCBS. As a matter of fact, I presented an audio demo of both WCBS & WRKL, received on an analog radio within WRKL's protected contour and there was no trace of WCBS on WRKL's signal. To repeat, Polnet communications bought a station which is unable to properly cover their target area. They soon realized this when they provided free am antenna boosters for their listeners because those same listeners couldn't hear WRKL in the areas they which live in. WRKL is trying to reach an audience which is about 40 miles from their 1 KW transmitter. the WCBS finding showed that where their signal was 1.4 volts and the WRKL signal was 700 microvolts and still the WCBS AM sidebbands were down 72 DB at 910 Khz.

 

[R.F. Burns]

I found this on another site and THIS says it all about this case;


WRKL's Side;

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518808409


http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518912523


http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518913456



And WCBS's response;

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518919218

Try looking at the first post on page 1 of THIS message thread.

As for WRKL, inserting Radio-Locator maps in an FCC filing is the height of stupidity. If you wish to establish any credibility with the FCC, you don't use coverage maps labeled "for entertainment use only."

They made so many stupid mistakes in this filing with the commission, it's unbelievable. They claim over 1 million listeners. Being Polish language that would mean they have over 1 million people who speak Polish within their protected signal range. The station is located in northern Rockland County and runs 1 K day and 800 watts night and in all of Rockland county there are under 300,000 residents in total. Where are these 1,000,000 plus Polish speaking listeners coming from? The FCC isn't staffed with idiots. This filling makes WRKL look stupid, which is a shame because the people who work there whom I have met are lovely people. By the way, at the bottom page 19 of the initial WRKL letter they claim to be a stand alone. That is untrue too. They simulcast WNVR and also until recently WLIM was also part of there chain. I can't imagine what they thought CBS with it's own in house broadcast attourneys and engineers would say. Sadly filings like this only makes those who might have real issues look suspect.

 

[Tom Wells]

The situation with WRKL and WCBS is exactly as I expected.
WCBS is no "wider" with its IBOC than any other IBOC AM, except KFUO St Louis, when they had REAL problems last November.

I was able to get a Ford Taurus, so the AM bandwidth is wide enough to hear what's going on.
The radio seems to have audio response almost to 10 khz.

At the Newark Airport, WRKL is audible and listenable with effort.
Any substantial interference would make the signal unusable.
With the Ford car radio, NO hiss from WCBS is to be heard on 910.
If WRKL has any beef, it is with analog splash from 930!


880- WCBS
890- Loud, "low" hiss
900- Half-loud "high pitched hiss"
910-WRKL weak, but no hiss
920-continuous sideband splashing from analog 930
930- whoever they are.

WRKL is definitely down in a little hole, where they are NOT going to be heard without a clean location, free from noise,
careful adjustment of radio angle, and the selectivity of the radio will need to be good.

From Jersey City up to Secaucus, the WRKL signal varied, sometimes quite readable and clear, other areas, completely missing.

It seems WRKL's listeners' radios are too wide to discriminate against stong signals to either side.
The filing is unfortunate, because nothing WCBS does can make the radio receivers more selective or sensitive.
On the other hand, before WCBS went IBOc, most listeners to WRKL probably were trying to tune slightly toward 900, to avoid the
analog splatter at 920-930. This won't work anymore, since the upper sidebands of WCBS have moved into the formerly clear 900
slot.

It is all a matter of perception and which radio is used.

To be sure, the 1kw signal of WRKL does not propogate here nearly as well as 910 WGTO's 1kw does in Michigan.
WRKL at 40 miles sounds like WGTO at 75 miles. Big conductivity difference, as RF points out.
At one hour to sunset, I was hearing an oldies station from CT mixed in with WRKL.

This filing will find no sympathy from the FCC, and will not help at all to make a case against ibiquity.
It doesn't make me like IBOC any better, but does make a statement about poor selectivity, which could be
ammunition against ibiquity's claims regarding "compatibility" with existing radios.
It is NOT compatible with cheap radios and closely packed signals.

However, it would be best if this 3rd-adjacent situation dropped their "case" and let some station with a 1st or 2nd adjacent
problem file a complaint, where the hiss really IS in the audio passband of a properly designed and center-tuned receiver.

I would like to help any station sufffering real lost coverage, but WCBS is really only "on" 860, 870, 880, 890, and 900 khz,
and the FCC says that's OK. It's just too darn bad for anyone who needs to put modulation in this range.


Ding! Next case, please.

 

[awj223]

This filing will find no sympathy from the FCC, and will not help at all to make a case against ibiquity.
It doesn't make me like IBOC any better, but does make a statement about poor selectivity, which could be
ammunition against ibiquity's claims regarding "compatibility" with existing radios.
It is NOT compatible with cheap radios and closely packed signals.

However, it would be best if this 3rd-adjacent situation dropped their "case" and let some station with a 1st or 2nd adjacent
problem file a complaint, where the hiss really IS in the audio passband of a properly designed and center-tuned receiver.

I would like to help any station sufffering real lost coverage, but WCBS is really only "on" 860, 870, 880, 890, and 900 khz,
and the FCC says that's OK. It's just too darn bad for anyone who needs to put modulation in this range.


Ding! Next case, please.

What a fraud. WRKL should drop their complaint and tell their listeners to throw out the cheap radios. Either that or just sell the station and get out of the market.

If there's one good thing about IBOC, maybe it will teach manufacturers how to make good receivers. My Sony handheld picked up the Mexican XEPRS 1090 while I was standing less than 25 feet from the KNX 1070 tower. There was some background splatter but it was very listenable, nothing that made it difficult to understand what was being said or even difficult to listen to. Once I was 50 yards away from KNX, even that background splatter was gone and the 1090 signal was clean. Of course, that was before KNX switched on its hash machine.

 

[R.F. Burns]

The situation with WRKL and WCBS is exactly as I expected.
WCBS is no "wider" with its IBOC than any other IBOC AM, except KFUO St Louis, when they had REAL problems last November.

I was able to get a Ford Taurus, so the AM bandwidth is wide enough to hear what's going on.
The radio seems to have audio response almost to 10 khz.

At the Newark Airport, WRKL is audible and listenable with effort.
Any substantial interference would make the signal unusable.
With the Ford car radio, NO hiss from WCBS is to be heard on 910.
If WRKL has any beef, it is with analog splash from 930!


880- WCBS
890- Loud, "low" hiss
900- Half-loud "high pitched hiss"
910-WRKL weak, but no hiss
920-continuous sideband splashing from analog 930
930- whoever they are.

WRKL is definitely down in a little hole, where they are NOT going to be heard without a clean location, free from noise,
careful adjustment of radio angle, and the selectivity of the radio will need to be good.

From Jersey City up to Secaucus, the WRKL signal varied, sometimes quite readable and clear, other areas, completely missing.

It seems WRKL's listeners' radios are too wide to discriminate against stong signals to either side.
The filing is unfortunate, because nothing WCBS does can make the radio receivers more selective or sensitive.
On the other hand, before WCBS went IBOc, most listeners to WRKL probably were trying to tune slightly toward 900, to avoid the
analog splatter at 920-930. This won't work anymore, since the upper sidebands of WCBS have moved into the formerly clear 900
slot.

It is all a matter of perception and which radio is used.

To be sure, the 1kw signal of WRKL does not propogate here nearly as well as 910 WGTO's 1kw does in Michigan.
WRKL at 40 miles sounds like WGTO at 75 miles. Big conductivity difference, as RF points out.
At one hour to sunset, I was hearing an oldies station from CT mixed in with WRKL.

This filing will find no sympathy from the FCC, and will not help at all to make a case against ibiquity.
It doesn't make me like IBOC any better, but does make a statement about poor selectivity, which could be
ammunition against ibiquity's claims regarding "compatibility" with existing radios.
It is NOT compatible with cheap radios and closely packed signals.

However, it would be best if this 3rd-adjacent situation dropped their "case" and let some station with a 1st or 2nd adjacent
problem file a complaint, where the hiss really IS in the audio passband of a properly designed and center-tuned receiver.

I would like to help any station sufffering real lost coverage, but WCBS is really only "on" 860, 870, 880, 890, and 900 khz,
and the FCC says that's OK. It's just too darn bad for anyone who needs to put modulation in this range.


Ding! Next case, please.

930 is WPAT 5 KW located in Clifton NJ off the Garden State Parkway and licensed to Paterson. They are owned by Arthur Lieu's Multicultural and run a BE transmitter. They use four self supporting towers with top hats. The reason WCBS analog didn't have the splatter you mention is because they've been all news since 1967. Let them run music and you'll hear a much different station. When WFAN ex WNBC and WABC were music you couldn't hear 650, 670, 680 (there was no 640 in this part of the country) 750, 76o, 780 or 790. Yep the good old days of radio. Yes they are running what appears to be 100% modulation on their sidebands now. They used to run 80 to 90% sideband splash. Polnet went nuts when WPAT went IBOC early on. WRKL 's signal is not protected in Clifton and WPAT because it's grandfathered fought the WRKL license for years and prevented night time ops for many years as well. WRKL shares 910 and protects both WLAT in CT. and WSBA in York PA. WRKL was put on the air in 1964 to cover Rockland county, which is did very well. Polnet doesn't want to cover Rockland where the Polish speaking population is under 1% at best, but locations 40 miles or more from their transmitter. One, this market is way too congested to do what they want. The poor ground conductivity is another reason. They bought a station figuring it would do what their Chicago property does and they were wrong. I can't speak for other markets but outside of WOR which is a brand new facility running three towers, all the current IBOC stations are 50 KW non Directional operations. Unlike many markets these stations have a whole team of engineers involved with their operation. No contract engineers who show up once a month for these outfits. You can be sure they all run within the letter of the law and are running new properly maintained equipment. Most are running Harris DX50's. Check out the Fybush pages for a look inside some of the NY transmitter plants.

http://www.fybush.com/sites/2006/site-060707.html (WOR)

http://www.fybush.com/sites/2005/site-050527.html (WABC)

http://www.fybush.com/site-030424.html (WFAN/WCBS)

By the way the old Continental backups won't do IBOC.