Do you know the reason as it seems pointless to me to have two bands processing the high frequencies on the Optimod 8200 when you have them fully coupled? Omnia seem to operate all six frequency bands fully independently, and eq it through a mixer. Would this not make the audio more consistent cut to cut?
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High Freq coupling 8200
- Thread starter stace
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Comparing setting up Orban and Omnia is like comparing apples and oranges. They are completely different processors with different design philosophy behind them. They work differently, they act differently and they sound different... You won't see coupling controls in Omnia because Frank doesn't belive in coupling (as I've been told), just like you won't see a pre-emphasis being inserted before limiters in Omnia processors. The fact that one processor uses certain mechanisms and the other doesn't, doesn't mean absolutely nothing other than that these two processor designs are fundamentally different.
Getting back to Orban.... There's a point in using 5-bands even with band 4 to 5 fully coupled because there's a following embedded clipper after each multiband limiter. Moreover, should the audio ever exceed band 5 threshold, band 5 can take more gain reduction than band 4. Band 4->5 coupling set to 100% means band 5 can never take less gain reduction than band 4, but it doesn't mean it can't take more. I'm not sure, but I believe the HF Limiter feedback loop also effects band 5 gain reduction.
Regards,
Goran Tomas
Getting back to Orban.... There's a point in using 5-bands even with band 4 to 5 fully coupled because there's a following embedded clipper after each multiband limiter. Moreover, should the audio ever exceed band 5 threshold, band 5 can take more gain reduction than band 4. Band 4->5 coupling set to 100% means band 5 can never take less gain reduction than band 4, but it doesn't mean it can't take more. I'm not sure, but I believe the HF Limiter feedback loop also effects band 5 gain reduction.
Regards,
Goran Tomas
Hi Goran,
The hf coupling control couples the gain reduction from band 3 to band 4.
This in turn affects band 5 the same amount as band 4 because band 5 takes the same gain reduction as band 4 regardless of the hf coupling control,band 5 just takes the same gain reduction as band 4 regardless.
This is the same idea as the xt2 does with band 5 and 6.
The 8200's band 5 controls audio above 6.2khz,the xt2's band 6 also controls audio above 6.2khz.
Goran i am interested in your opinion regarding the band 1 and 2 output mix controls on the 8200.
What is strange is that the 8200 has combined clipper for band 1 and 2,similar to the xt2,but as the output band mix controls are after this bass clipper(so altering the multiband combined levels going in to the final clipper),how do you then split the frequencies again after this clipper and have this o/p mix control?
I can see these mix controls being after band 1 and 2 limiters,but before the bass clipper,but i cannot see how these are available after the bass clipper?
Remember that increasing these controls above 0 db will increase the levels to the final clipper causing distortion,as the manual states.
Also i have noticed on several 8200's that when using the internal encoder,and using 5 band settings,you can hear a 6khz whistle decoded on a receiver when in stereo mode.
This whistle is low but there,i have tracked this down to 32khz sample rate being induced in the internal encoder and being decoded in the receiver (38khz -32khz = 6khz).
I have managed to cure this with a few mods,you can clearly see this on a spectrum analyser on the mpx o/p.
This only shows itself with any 5 band preset,it does not show on 2 band or bypass.
Also after modification the mpx baseband is cleaner in other areas as well.
The hf coupling control couples the gain reduction from band 3 to band 4.
This in turn affects band 5 the same amount as band 4 because band 5 takes the same gain reduction as band 4 regardless of the hf coupling control,band 5 just takes the same gain reduction as band 4 regardless.
This is the same idea as the xt2 does with band 5 and 6.
The 8200's band 5 controls audio above 6.2khz,the xt2's band 6 also controls audio above 6.2khz.
Goran i am interested in your opinion regarding the band 1 and 2 output mix controls on the 8200.
What is strange is that the 8200 has combined clipper for band 1 and 2,similar to the xt2,but as the output band mix controls are after this bass clipper(so altering the multiband combined levels going in to the final clipper),how do you then split the frequencies again after this clipper and have this o/p mix control?
I can see these mix controls being after band 1 and 2 limiters,but before the bass clipper,but i cannot see how these are available after the bass clipper?
Remember that increasing these controls above 0 db will increase the levels to the final clipper causing distortion,as the manual states.
Also i have noticed on several 8200's that when using the internal encoder,and using 5 band settings,you can hear a 6khz whistle decoded on a receiver when in stereo mode.
This whistle is low but there,i have tracked this down to 32khz sample rate being induced in the internal encoder and being decoded in the receiver (38khz -32khz = 6khz).
I have managed to cure this with a few mods,you can clearly see this on a spectrum analyser on the mpx o/p.
This only shows itself with any 5 band preset,it does not show on 2 band or bypass.
Also after modification the mpx baseband is cleaner in other areas as well.
The individual band output mix controls are located after the multiband clippers because they increase the multiband levels going in to the final clipper,the manual states this.
I sent an email off to Marty Acuff asking for clarification,he replied as follows,
"The B1 - B5 Out Mix controls are indeed located after the output of the multiband compressor/limiters, and prior to the Final Clipper.
There's a detailed description of the Output Mix controls in the V3 Manual Addendum (see pg. 6) that I've previously sent to you.
To answer your other questions, the Output Mix controls are located AFTER the Bass Clipper; also I do not believe that the 8200 is simply a "digital implementation" of the XT2: there are differences in the topologies. I can't detail the differences because I don't know all of them, and because some of it is proprietary.
Do bands 4 & 5 have separate clippers, or one for both combined bands? I don't know: I haven't found anything in the manual specifically about that.
The HF CLIPPING control sets the threshold of clipping in bands 4 and 5 relative to the MULTI-BAND CLIP control (pg. 3-39). HF CLIPPING does not increase drive: it alters the threshold of clipping, which is essentially the inverse of a drive control.
One technique that will give some insight is to step through the LESS-MORE settings of a given preset and observe how the factory tunings change these controls.
I hope I've answered your questions sufficiently".
So Marty appears to indicate that bands 1 and 2 after the bass clipper,seem to re split the bands back to allow for bands 1/2 output mix controls.
On the 8400 info,it states that the 8200 has a hard bass clipper.
So an interesting question!
I would have thought that if all band output mix controls were located before the multiband clippers,then the multiband clippers would control the peak levels going in to the final clipper.
Thanks,
Paul.
I sent an email off to Marty Acuff asking for clarification,he replied as follows,
"The B1 - B5 Out Mix controls are indeed located after the output of the multiband compressor/limiters, and prior to the Final Clipper.
There's a detailed description of the Output Mix controls in the V3 Manual Addendum (see pg. 6) that I've previously sent to you.
To answer your other questions, the Output Mix controls are located AFTER the Bass Clipper; also I do not believe that the 8200 is simply a "digital implementation" of the XT2: there are differences in the topologies. I can't detail the differences because I don't know all of them, and because some of it is proprietary.
Do bands 4 & 5 have separate clippers, or one for both combined bands? I don't know: I haven't found anything in the manual specifically about that.
The HF CLIPPING control sets the threshold of clipping in bands 4 and 5 relative to the MULTI-BAND CLIP control (pg. 3-39). HF CLIPPING does not increase drive: it alters the threshold of clipping, which is essentially the inverse of a drive control.
One technique that will give some insight is to step through the LESS-MORE settings of a given preset and observe how the factory tunings change these controls.
I hope I've answered your questions sufficiently".
So Marty appears to indicate that bands 1 and 2 after the bass clipper,seem to re split the bands back to allow for bands 1/2 output mix controls.
On the 8400 info,it states that the 8200 has a hard bass clipper.
So an interesting question!
I would have thought that if all band output mix controls were located before the multiband clippers,then the multiband clippers would control the peak levels going in to the final clipper.
Thanks,
Paul.
Goran,
I have sent Bob Orban a quick email asking for clarification on the Band out mix control.
I mentioned that as the 8200 has a combined clipper for band 1 and 2,placing the band out mix control after this would require a split again in both botom bands to get the band out mix controls.
Bob's respose was "If I recall correctly, the B1 and B2 mix controls are before the bass clipper, as your reasoning suggests".
So we have different opinions from Marty and Bob!
The band out mix controls would have a different effect between before and after the multiband clippers.
Paul.
I have sent Bob Orban a quick email asking for clarification on the Band out mix control.
I mentioned that as the 8200 has a combined clipper for band 1 and 2,placing the band out mix control after this would require a split again in both botom bands to get the band out mix controls.
Bob's respose was "If I recall correctly, the B1 and B2 mix controls are before the bass clipper, as your reasoning suggests".
So we have different opinions from Marty and Bob!
The band out mix controls would have a different effect between before and after the multiband clippers.
Paul.
While addendum to the Orban 8200 manual for software version 3.0 indeed implicitly suggests that the band mix controls are after the bass clipper, I don't think that's the case. It just wouldn't make much engineering sense to do that... It's much easier to provide band gain before any summation from design point of view, and not much would be accomplished if it's done after multiband clipping. If anything, it would negate the purpose of bass clipping to some extent...
Regards,
Goran Tomas
Regards,
Goran Tomas
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