High Frequencies in processing

[fm-engineer]

I have stations with Omnia 6's and Optimods 8300, 8400, 5300's. All of the architecture is the same between the Optimods. Overall, the Omnia is definitely brighter, but IMHO, more distorted than Orban. I do know that pre-emphasis is applied after multiband functions in the Omnia, and before multiband in the Orban stuff. I too get the complaint that on certain material the Optimod sounds dull. WGLI is right, try reducing the band 4-5 coupling a bit. In fact, every installation I have with Optimods I reduce down to 90% coupling on 4-5. That is usually enough to add some sparkle without sounding shrill. I may disagree with lowering the HF limiting function because that possibly could result in some HF overshoot that the clipper cannot handle. The HF enhancer doesn't sound good at all, so I agree with WGLI with that as well. Turn that off. Also, are you using the stereo enhancer? I have found that 2 or 2.5 is plenty. Any more and it actually sounds duller to me, and probably doesn't help with multipath. Another thought is the 15 kHz low pass filter in the Optimod is rather steep. The Omnia is very gentle, so there is more energy above 15 kHz with the Omnia. With the 8500, I believe Bob matched Omnia with a very gentle low pass filter. I may be wrong on that.

Excellent. I will have to try that out. So basically just relying on 4-5 coupling and Brilliance control....what's a good average number there, if you could throw one out?

Try 90% coupling on band 4-5. If that is not enough, try 80 or 85. I don't care for the brilliance eq, but it would not hurt to try it out. Good luck

 

[wgliradio]

TURN OFF THE HF ENHANCER. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. That feature is a waste of time.

Really? Why do you think so?

The Orban HF enhancer, in my opinion, is a bad band aid to try and somehow squeeze more highs out of a box that does have, at times, a dull high end. What's funny is that I can get better, crisper highs out of an 8100 than an 8400... go figure.

The HF enhancer also makes the highs sound odd, weird, unnatural.

 

[wgliradio]

I may disagree with lowering the HF limiting function because that possibly could result in some HF overshoot that the clipper cannot handle.

If you play between the HF threshold and the attack, you can sometimes add some more naturalness to the highs w/o adding overshoot or distortion... it's a very steady hand and good ear you need.

 

[CW]

pre emp flat (off.)little john, would it not sound tinty? also i wonder if whit is running pre-emph in the 8400 and in the STL? that could be siphoning off some highs..never knew of anyone not running the 75 pre emph(usa) in the processor,since that seems to be the desired place to have it.

You have it backwards....PRE-Emphasis adds gain to the higher freqs...thus without pre-emph, it would sound muddy...BUT you can adjust the EQ and processor to make up for that...with PREEMPH turned ON, the processor has to try to process the higher gain upper end and it gets squashed as you noticed....(the low end still sounds clean)..

FCC rules dont require you to run preemph....it just sets the limits at 75uS.....and in modern processors, its just not needed anymore (remember PRE-and DE-EMphasis are supposed to overcome the inherent noise in the higher freqs bands of analog FM mod....but with the pre turned off and the processor set up right, you get a cleaner audio at the rcvr (which will still have de-emphasis in it so you HAVE to account for that).....

TURN OFF the pre-emph and adjust your EQ while listening to an on air rcvr...ALSO turn off pre-em in the exciter and even your STL if possible...YOU WILL sound muddy then until you get the processor adjusted ok...and then you can kick butt! IF you run RDS, etc, turning off pre-em MAY affect it....but probably not.

 

[whit979]

Try 90% coupling on band 4-5. If that is not enough, try 80 or 85. I don't care for the brilliance eq, but it would not hurt to try it out. Good luck

Thanks for the tip on band coupling. It sounds pretty good but doesn't seem to respond well to any kind of multiband release setting. Seems to be best with Slow release time on our setup.

 

[tomservo]

We have a bunch of Clear Channel stations near us and for some reason their high end really sparkles.

Out of curiosity, which Clear Channel stations are you going by, Birmingham or Atlanta?

I've always thought the sound quality of stations like Magic 96 and The Q in Birmingham went downhill after getting bought by Clear Channel. I started hearing more and more digital compression on Magic to the point it clashed with their 'trademark open air sound' as I like to call it. They did well with The Bull, their country outlet, though.

My favorite has always been WBHK (Kiss), Cox's urban AC outlet. I dunno what they did, but it really made high end stereos shine, without compromising the "boom box" listeners, IMHO. Jamz, their urban contemporary sister, always sounded good, too.

At the very utter bottom in Birmingham are the ex-Dick stations (Rock 99, WYSF) under Citadel's umbrella. *shudder*

It's been so long since I've visited ATL I forgot how the FM's sounded (other than "loud!")

 

[rorban]

With the factory presets, the 8400 is designed to have clean high frequencies and to respect the "laws of physics" limitations of the FM pre-emphasis curve. It uses several distortion control algorithms to achieve this. If you prefer a crisper sound at the expense of distortion, I would work with the following controls:


-HF Limiter (this is a very critical control for determining the brightness/distortion tradeoff)

-B5 Clip Threshold (also critical for determining the tradeoff)

-Frequency on the high parametric equalizer band. Most factory presets have this tuned around 4 kHz because we believe that the average radio will benefit. However, for a crisper sound, adjust the control to around 6 kHz.

The Crisp preset on the 8500 is an example of what Greg Ogonowski and I feel is a good tradeoff for people who prefer a brighter sound.

Finally, none of these adjustments should significantly increase or decrease overshoot, particularly if you use the 8400's composite output and composite limiter.

Bob Orban

 

[whit979]

We have a bunch of Clear Channel stations near us and for some reason their high end really sparkles.

Out of curiosity, which Clear Channel stations are you going by, Birmingham or Atlanta?

I've always thought the sound quality of stations like Magic 96 and The Q in Birmingham went downhill after getting bought by Clear Channel. I started hearing more and more digital compression on Magic to the point it clashed with their 'trademark open air sound' as I like to call it. They did well with The Bull, their country outlet, though.

Hey Zach, I'm referring to the CC's in Birmingham. Particularly The Q because they're the only 'hit music' competition we have around here. They seem to be much more compressed in the last few months....but their super-high frequency sound has been more well-defined than ours for a while. Maybe that's just my view on it....I can't speak for the good people of Birmingham on how they like Q's sound.

The Crisp preset on the 8500 is an example of what Greg Ogonowski and I feel is a good tradeoff for people who prefer a brighter sound.

Thanks Mr. Orban: I would love to get the specs on the Crisp preset, if you'd be willing to share them with me. Thanks for the info.

Thanks also to fm-engineer for your advice. The band coupling trick is the best thing I've heard thus far.

 

[tomservo]

Maybe that's just my view on it....I can't speak for the good people of Birmingham on how they like Q's sound.

Ah, okay. I wish I were back in the big ol' salty Ham to give a live listen to them versus your station... I recall listening to 97.9 when I worked in Trussville and it sounded good to me (aside from the static!) Of course, this was around 2003, so things might have changed.

I appreciate your efforts to have a competitive sounding station in a smaller market. Some of these guys in Mississippi could learn something from your ambition. (I'm still waiting on several area stations to get rid of their loud "AC hum" and balance issues; processing is probably a very very low priority). :/

 

[rorban]

Thanks Mr. Orban: I would love to get the specs on the Crisp preset, if you'd be willing to share them with me. Thanks for the info.

Thanks also to fm-engineer for your advice. The band coupling trick is the best thing I've heard thus far.

I haven't tried the following, but I think it will work:

--Download setup8500_2.0.0.199_pc_remote.zip from ftp.orban.com/8500/Software

--Upzip the setup file and run the executable to install 8500 PC Remote on your computer.

--On your computer, navigate to C:\Program Files\Orban\Optimod 8500 PC Remote\presets

--Open CRISP.orb85f75 with a text editor like Notepad

--Connect to your 8400 via PC Remote and save any preset that you like as a User Preset. Name it Crisp8500 (or whatever you would like).

--Back up your 8400 presets via 8400 PC Remote and locate the Crisp8500 file that 8400 PC Remote writes to your computer's hard drive. Open it with a text editor.

--Delete all of the lines beginning with 'C:' except the lines above C:<AGC BASS COUPLE... Replace these with all of the lines beginning with 'C:' in the 8500 file except the lines above C:<AGC BASS COUPLE. (In other words, you need to retain the original 8400 AGC parameters because 8500 V2 has an improved AGC with some parameter changes.)

--Delete all of the lines beginning with 'C:<HD' (These are specific to V2 of 8500)

--Save Crisp8500 with your edits.

--Using 8400 PC Remote software, restore Crisp8500 to your 8400.

--Recall the preset and see what happens . If luck is with you, you should have the correct parameters.

 

[beisenhamer]

Feel free to contact me offline. I am always interested in helping, but some of what I do is quite custom.

We have a brightness that is bright and crisp vs. CC and their loud, fatiguing sound. I would be interested to know if my adjustments would suit your needs or if you find them too extreme.

Also note that from my experience they run into the compressors much more, similar to the Loud+Punchy setting in the Optimod.

Regards,
Bill