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Hitz/Magic, whatever, YOU'RE DISTORTED!

M

Mike Walker

Guest
I'm sick of fm sounding like crap (from too much processing), because I remember a time when fm radio actually was a high fidelity source! EVERYBODY is turned up to "blast off". Hell, the cds (including remastered "classic" music) have already been compressed, limited, and "normalized" into clipping until they sound AWFUL. Now you add another layer of heavy duty GRUNGE so that you can sound nice and "loud"? Is this generation, raised to believe that mp3s are the ultimate in sound quality, completely friggin' DEAF! TURN IT DOWN!

The only reason I'm pickin' on 94.1 is because I just checked 'em out, and they're WAY distorted in the bass. And compressed to the breaking point. I could hear a mouse fart three studios away from an open microphone. Don't you know how much listener fatigue that causes, and how much it limits tsl? WTQR is also DISTORTED, guys! Must you pre-distort your hd signal, just so it sounds as trashy as the good ole' analog?

And hell, I'm far from an audio purist, I LOVE processing. Just KEEP IT CLEAN! PLEASE, keep it clean!
 
Shhh...don't tell Mike that radio doesn't use cds any more. I DO think 94.1 may be using reel to reels though.
Could you get us some stats on the distortion? ghattaway wants to know.
 
Radio stations don't play cds? Color me stoopid! Wait...they DO play cds...ripped to hard drives, using some kind of lossy compression. Which means they play audio that's often WORSE than the cd originals, which were already getting pretty damn bad!

Talk about a distinction without a difference...even if you get your music from a "service", already on hard drives, it was still sourced from cds (and if you're an oldies station, likely somewhere along the way, lps! Or 45s! YIKES!)

If I scan my novel page by page to a .pdf file, and then read it from the screen of my pda, does that mean I "don't read books"?
 
It's okay Mike, we'll talk slower and add footnotes to make sure you understand we're just kidding.
And ghattaway still wants the distortion figures.
 
How could I possibly get distortion figures on a station I don't work at? That would involve having access to an audio generator, and their facilities...not to mention taking their audio off the air and sending test tones through the chain. I'm sure they'll let me walk in off the street and do that! (Oh you were kidding again? Nevermind!)

I know harmonic distortion when I hear it. Don't you? If I were to guess a "figure", I'd say approaching 7-10 percent at frequencies below 200hz. And I'll bet (with no way of confirming it) that I'm not too far off.

Yeah, you were joking. Ha, ha. The FM dial is still a wasteland in comparison to the 70s when many stations (mostly beautiful music and album rock) actually promoted their audio quality in advertising. Hell, several FM stations around here (a couple in Charlotte, as I recall) broadcast in "dolby fm" until it became clear that nobody had fm tuners with dolby decoders.

Ever read tuner reviews in audio magazines? Admittedly they're as rare as hens' teeth, but GOOD fm tuners often have distortion figures nearly as low as amplifiers. Even Wal Mart shelf systems from RCA, Sony, and Panasonic often have tuners with perhaps 1 percent, or even .5 percent or less. So why in the hell in 2006, with potentially pristine digital source material in even small market am facilities, are we broadcasting such utter grunge?????? It's time somebody stood up and YELLED! And it would have to be an old guy like me (apparently. I'm 48, by the way) to point out that guys, you may think of it as LOUD, but actually it sounds like festering fecal matter!
 
Hey Mike,


The Whoreman's yankin your chain, and tryin (without success) to yank mine. Hal has a pretty good ear, and my guess is he's doing what he's told. The intent is probably to try to mask some of the noise in the station's fringe areas with additional density. Remember that for the time being, cume is the object of the game, not TSL. I suspect when Garrett puts on his headphones to do the mid day show, he'll tone it down a bit.
 
Thanks gary and give us a minute! Its been kinda busy lately. Still trying to get that satelite rcvr running. If Mike wants to come by I will be happy for his input.
 
Mike Walker said:
How could I possibly get distortion figures on a station I don't work at? That would involve having access to an audio generator, and their facilities...not to mention taking their audio off the air and sending test tones through the chain. I'm sure they'll let me walk in off the street and do that! (Oh you were kidding again? Nevermind!)

I know harmonic distortion when I hear it. Don't you? If I were to guess a "figure", I'd say approaching 7-10 percent at frequencies below 200hz. And I'll bet (with no way of confirming it) that I'm not too far off.

Yeah, you were joking. Ha, ha. The FM dial is still a wasteland in comparison to the 70s when many stations (mostly beautiful music and album rock) actually promoted their audio quality in advertising. Hell, several FM stations around here (a couple in Charlotte, as I recall) broadcast in "dolby fm" until it became clear that nobody had fm tuners with dolby decoders.

Ever read tuner reviews in audio magazines? Admittedly they're as rare as hens' teeth, but GOOD fm tuners often have distortion figures nearly as low as amplifiers. Even Wal Mart shelf systems from RCA, Sony, and Panasonic often have tuners with perhaps 1 percent, or even .5 percent or less. So why in the hell in 2006, with potentially pristine digital source material in even small market am facilities, are we broadcasting such utter grunge?????? It's time somebody stood up and YELLED! And it would have to be an old guy like me (apparently. I'm 48, by the way) to point out that guys, you may think of it as LOUD, but actually it sounds like festering fecal matter!
Click to expand...

When the industry went to digital audio processing quality began to suffer because most engineers haven't a clue how to tweak the processing. A fair amout of Compression 30db, EQ, Fairly Aggressive limiting, med-fast agc and BACK OFF THE DAMN CLIPPING! That's where the distortion is coming from.
 
Personally, I trust Hal to know what he's doing.
Now, Mike, what are these CDs you speak of?
 
Whoreman, Hal's got it covered with room to spare. DJ's got his covered with lotsa room, too. And Garrett's rep speaks for itself. The station's got some of the hardest hitters in sales, too. Shark can play oldies blindfolded. Now, we'd really like to know what you plan to bring to the table?
 
ow, well, I'm just gonna curl up and die. Small town engineer doesn't approve of me. That's it, going back to selling Amway.
Though I'll gladly match resumes, reps, and accomplishments any time.
You boys go back to grinding your axes now, the big boys have to go pretend to work.
 
In truth many small town stations with dated (analog) processing, but modern digital source material (cds, hard drives), have immensely cleaner audio than "big time stations". Often the cleanest audio on the dial (though certainly not the loudest) comes from small college and university stations with neither the budget, nor the inclination to be the loudest thing on the dial.

I'm not sure if I was who manwhore was referring to as a "small town engineer", but if so, I LIVE in Wilkes County because it's my home. I've worked in Charlotte, among other places. Charlotte...which I believe is larger than Greensboro. But hey, does size really matter? (Dunno', let's ask manwhore's wife!)

Seriously, I'm not sure "cleanest audio" is a contest that big city engineers want to wage against small town guys! (And for the record, I'm not a chief engineer at ANY station. But I have been in radio since Ford was president. That's Gerald, not Henry). Think about it big city guys...do you REALLY want to measure harmonic distortion through your air chain (not in "proof mode") and compare it to the little fm in a small town, or that college station? To quote my hero Al Borlin..."I don't think so, Tim!"
 
Mike, WhoreMan's jab was directed at me. That's ok- I have a tough hide. Whether I approve of him or he approves of me is immaterial. He answered my question exactly as I thought he would.
 
The Buffalo Springfield track they played around lunchtime today is out of phase. No lead vocals to speak of .. and way too much background vocal. One of those old fashioned fake stereo mixes that sound like crap if something is out of phase in the chain.
 
I heard that and others..It sounds like some old remixs of some Tanner Stuff that orginally was mono, Reel to Reel!
 
It might be one of the digital audio cards is out of phase - or one channel on the board. My first thought was it was not the original recording -- a remake -- but it became clear it was a phase problem! Those things are really hard to track down.

If they would like to buy to good versions, I will gladly LOAN them some wav or mp3 files.
 
I am SOOOOOO much enjoying this thread... For two reasons...

First--on the very day CC blew up heritage Atlanta classic rocker WKLS after 32 years, it’s wonderful to even hear about the enthusiastic launch of an oldies FM in a larger market!

Second--I’m a sucker for any good processing debate, so I’ll toss in my two pennies and several hundred words. For ten years, I owned and operated two AMs (oldies; adult standards) and two FMs (classic-oriented AOR; modern pop AC) in a medium market. I’m not an engineer--but I could never find one that didn’t love working for me. I made my own equipment choices (especially processing), and my facility and audio on every transmitter was exceptional. While my knowledge of 94.1 is zip-nada--based on the observations of others here--I’ll take a stab on the scenario at their transmitter site. Let’s see--a rimshot former Hot AC trying to sound “boss” (now with The Boss Miss Ross)... I can only guess that rack holds one of those God-awful digital all-in-one boxes cranked to fill in the holes.

You may debate and I may be missing out on the latest firmware burn; but I have never experienced an off-the-shelf single-box digital solution when pushed to provide “da bomb” out in the coverage area, that doesn’t excel in any way but “the grunge factor”. With all due respect to you Orban sales reps--that’s just a fact folks! Furthermore, all of these units, although offering “manual control” or user-defined settings, continue to essentially operate “with a mind of their own” despite how they are tweaked.

While some formats when pre-processed by a very good analog AGC (like an APHEX Compellor with digital I/O) can sound OK thru the current digital procs--OLDIES is not one that fares well. The audio texture of that program material is simply too inconsistent. Digital AGC and dynamic EQ just don’t cut it when attempting to operate over a broad range. What ends up happening all too often is the over-dependence on high-frequency and/or broadband clipping to make up for the ineffective early stages. This condition also affects fringe and multipath area reception adversely. So cranking up for distant cume, may aggravate problems you are attempting to remedy. The audio inadequacy that Mr. Walker notes is a clear (or not-so-clear) symptom of this condition.

I tried an Omnia-FM digital box once on my fine-sounding 6kw classic-based FM rocker, and it was back in the box within a day. This station was no wimp (audio wise)--but it was clean and sounded great 40-miles out! The Omnia couldn’t measure up against our malaise of APHEX – tkElectric multiband - gutted Orban - more APHEX - and a “handcrafted” composite box from the early ‘90s!

Sounds like 94.1 needs to hit some radio garage sales and pick up some classic analog audio gear to compliment their classic analog playlist. 8)
 
Geeez! I'm not an Engineer, but I'm just awed by Hipporadio's post. Engineer and others at new Majic should take note. Might be some real pearls of wisdom there. Sound's like Hipporadio knows his stuff and is trying to help.
 
;D Hippo, I couldn't have said it better myself It's like our minds were merged in the Vulcan Mind Merge..I'd listen Hal!..Is ManWhore really Bob Campbell? No doubt? But then again, Who's Bob Campbell?.. I'll match resume's.. I've been fired from some of the Nations Best Radio Stations
 
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