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[dbdigital]

Well how is it that Miami stations are not audible in Tampa? I have spent years listening to radio in Tampa in both cars and on all types of radio and yet Miami is really not audible there. I would venture to guess that those two Miami stations have an audience you could count on one hand at beat in that remote location. What's fasacinating is that WIOD day and night is directional south east. That must be a miracle station to cover that far north when they have a null in that direction. WQAM at 5 K day and it's low frequency my be heard slightly, although I doubt it during the day, but at night it's 1 K. As for Alaska, what can I say. It's not exactly comparable to NY, LA or Chicago either population wise of in the number of available radio sattions. Alaska is not an urban center by any means. Even it's cities have relatively small population figures compared to the continental US.

Because AM propagation (especially at the low end of the band) is largely by groundwave propagation, where the signal will go and how far is dependent on soil conductivity. Aiming and adjustment of AM directional arrays is as much art as science (the common term of it being a "black art" isn't far off the mark), and it is as much empirical as theoretical.

Many sparsely-populated states, especially those in the Midwest and West, are not so different from Alaska in this regard, where stations in the population centers also serve many smaller communities scattered throughout their states, sometimes by skywave propagation.

-- Jason

Somebody mentioned in an earlier post about the Europeans using a different band to broadcast digital and of course they were referring to Eureka 147 which broadcasts on the L band (1452-1492 MHz). Other countries are using 221 MHz and up for digital-only broadcasting.

It's too bad the FCC didn't give this idea a serious think instead of being sold on the notion of hybrid digital broadcasting on AM/FM as it is proving to be a disaster.

I'm sure HD Radio would be fine in digital-only mode (or at least no worse than the other digital schemes). But hybrid broadcasting is DOA.

The FCC appears to have forgotten the old adage, "If it seems too good to be true..."

Of course, on the plus side, this board would not be nearly as interesting.

db

 

[Chuck]

. Also, did you say 6 stations? And 125 miles is the max for one of those 6? Well 6 out of thousands, that's a pretty good percentage, I'd say. I'm not being a wise guy but seriously you are talking about six stations in the entire United States.

No. I said there are six out of market stations in our local fall book. Not counting noncommercial stations, there are 29 total stations listed. Six of them Arbitron (not me) calls "Outside Arbitron Merto Area." That is not an insignificant percentage, even when you consider that several local full power stations did not even rate. There are really about 35 "local" commercial stations and six or seven local noncommercial stations in the market.

The market in question is the Tyler-Longview (TX) market, which is #149. Certainly not the biggest market, but not the smallest either. Outside market stations that showed were from Arlington, TX (DFW), Shreveport and Lufkin. Obviously, prople do listen to out of market radio in my area.

 

[davideduardo]

. Also, did you say 6 stations? And 125 miles is the max for one of those 6? Well 6 out of thousands, that's a pretty good percentage, I'd say. I'm not being a wise guy but seriously you are talking about six stations in the entire United States.

No. I said there are six out of market stations in our local fall book. Not counting noncommercial stations, there are 29 total stations listed. Six of them Arbitron (not me) calls "Outside Arbitron Merto Area." That is not an insignificant percentage, even when you consider that several local full power stations did not even rate. There are really about 35 "local" commercial stations and six or seven local noncommercial stations in the market.

The market in question is the Tyler-Longview (TX) market, which is #149. Certainly not the biggest market, but not the smallest either. Outside market stations that showed were from Arlington, TX (DFW), Shreveport and Lufkin. Obviously, prople do listen to out of market radio in my area.

However, these are adjacent market stations. Tyler-Longview is about equdistant from each of the other markets, and people at the edges of your market can definitely get decent signals from the adjacent market.

The point is that listening to stations that are not home to a market does not mean that listeners are tuned to a bad signal or listening on AM skywave. They are listening to a decent signal in a part of another market where the adjacent market station is local, too.

The highest rated non-home station has a 1.6 (a Shreeveport rimshot actually licenced in Texas), and the rest have below a 1 share. Some of this can come from in car listening of people who are mobile in the area... and some is from people who live to the side of the market nearest Shreeveport or the DFW market.

The fact is that there is a very small amount of listeing to stations not home to the market, and all of that is listening to adjacent markets, not distant ones. Several of the stations making the book are actually in between the market, like Diboll.

I do not believe any of these are on adjacent channels to a true in-market station, so HD would not affect them... the point of this discussion.

 

[Chuck]

The fact is that there is a very small amount of listeing to stations not home to the market, and all of that is listening to adjacent markets, not distant ones. Several of the stations making the book are actually in between the market, like Diboll.

I do not believe any of these are on adjacent channels to a true in-market station, so HD would not affect them... the point of this discussion.

I believe you are the one who said: ""There is little if any out of market use of web streams or, in general, out of market stations." That’s what I was responding to. At this point, you're probably right about the Internet, but people do listen to radio that comes from outside of their local market. I noticed today that my wife has three Dallas AM stations pre-set on her car radio (KRLD, WBAP & KAAM). I'll bet she is pretty typical of the market. For what it is worth, all three signals are fairly weak in this area. I guess she listens through the static because they occasionally broadcast something she wants to hear.

I doubt that Tyler-Longview is that unique in being within reception range of other markets. The Great Lake states come to mind as a good example. I know several stations are short spaced in that area. I don't have the time or inclination to research those markets, but I stand by the fact that people really do listen to out of market radio stations. I hope you are correct that IBOC will not cause undue problems to people trying to listen to these stations.

I guess my real problem is the attitude that if IBOC causes interference to a station that is beyond its protected contour, then it's just too bad. It's true that broadcasters are guaranteed nothing past their protected contour, but the reality of daily life is there are people listening well beyond that point. Many people make their living out of that. If you were one of those, you’d probably be less than enthusiastic about the possibility of losing ground.

 

[davideduardo]

I believe you are the one who said: ""There is little if any out of market use of web streams or, in general, out of market stations." That’s what I was responding to. At this point, you're probably right about the Internet, but people do listen to radio that comes from outside of their local market. I noticed today that my wife has three Dallas AM stations pre-set on her car radio (KRLD, WBAP & KAAM). I'll bet she is pretty typical of the market. For what it is worth, all three signals are fairly weak in this area. I guess she listens through the static because they occasionally broadcast something she wants to hear.

I doubt that Tyler-Longview is that unique in being within reception range of other markets. The Great Lake states come to mind as a good example. I know several stations are short spaced in that area. I don't have the time or inclination to research those markets, but I stand by the fact that people really do listen to out of market radio stations. I hope you are correct that IBOC will not cause undue problems to people trying to listen to these stations.

I guess my real problem is the attitude that if IBOC causes interference to a station that is beyond its protected contour, then it's just too bad. It's true that broadcasters are guaranteed nothing past their protected contour, but the reality of daily life is there are people listening well beyond that point. Many people make their living out of that. If you were one of those, you’d probably be less than enthusiastic about the possibility of losing ground.

Thank you! You raise good points with real life examples.

You mention examples of pretty fringe listening. Some of this will not be protected since it may be outside the protected contour of the station you are listening to. In this case, I am guessing that the Dallas programming has more alternatives or is better than the local stations. Is that the reason?

Protection is not guaranteed beyond the protected contour. One of our LA stations, KLVE, used to get listening in Santa Barbara, and showed in the book. There was no local station with similar programming. But then the FCC licensed a station on the adjacent channel int he Santa BArbara market, and we got wiped out. We had no recourse as the contour was beyond the one the FCC protects. Not HD, just using the spectrum according to the rules.

This is not the only case where that has happened where I worked. But we can not lament the loss of something that we never had a right to. Since we made no money from Santa BArbara listening, it was more ego than reality that made us lament the loss. We make the book with that station in Oxnard and in Riverside /San Berdoo (top 5, often) but do not make any money off that, either. So most stations will not really care if in some adjacent market they can no longer be heard...

But the best point you raise is that of people putting up with bad signals because, maybe, the local stations bite...

 

[1q2w3e]

. Also, did you say 6 stations? And 125 miles is the max for one of those 6? Well 6 out of thousands, that's a pretty good percentage, I'd say. I'm not being a wise guy but seriously you are talking about six stations in the entire United States.

No. I said there are six out of market stations in our local fall book. Not counting noncommercial stations, there are 29 total stations listed. Six of them Arbitron (not me) calls "Outside Arbitron Merto Area." That is not an insignificant percentage, even when you consider that several local full power stations did not even rate. There are really about 35 "local" commercial stations and six or seven local noncommercial stations in the market.

The market in question is the Tyler-Longview (TX) market, which is #149. Certainly not the biggest market, but not the smallest either. Outside market stations that showed were from Arlington, TX (DFW), Shreveport and Lufkin. Obviously, prople do listen to out of market radio in my area.

'



Oh I am sorry. I thought this was the HD Radio board. Silly me! ??? : :'(

 

[Chuck]

Oh I am sorry. I thought this was the HD Radio board. Silly me! ??? : :'(

It's more like "silly us" for wasting so much time here. I was answering a previous question, which is more than I can say for most posters here. David gave me an answer. If that offends you. I'm sorry. It's all about radio, you know...