Hope Media Group and WAY-FM to merge

[2Speakers]

Religion (and everything that comes with it) shouldn't be tax exempt. The government should treat the act of spreading "religion" as a hobby rather than a public service.

So, what you're saying is my church should send money to the government each year instead of using it to build shelters for battered women and their children? Stop providing sack lunches for hungry kids in our community? No more clean water and healthcare projects in poorer countries? Stop sending doctors to those countries to help heal the diseased? Stop working the community garden we use to provide over 8,000 pounds of fresh produce to the hungry in our community? Stop providing home repairs for flood victims and the elderly?

If that's what you're saying, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Our hobbies tend to provide positive outcomes for a lot of people.

 

[BamaTX]

The key here is the word "faith" and it means believing in something powerful enough to create everything we know and all we do not know.

You mean make-believe stories based on old wives' tales?

But following you idea, that would mean that sports clubs, drama clubs, art clubs and things like women's clubs, and anything else where there are no profits and nobody take any surplus to their bank.

If their cause is to benefit the community, then their surpluses should go towards expanding whatever it is they sought out to do.

Churches do not distribute profits as they do not have a "profit" so they can not be taxed, just like the Rotary or the amateur hockey team in town.

Doesn't matter. They should still be taxed on the count that they're only promoting baseless beliefs that in no way benefits the community.

And the PBS / NPR CEO in New York makes about a million a year. That's because that person is a "rainmaker" and brings in the corporate and charitable organization donations.

For the sake of this argument, let's stick to "religion", shall we?

Why should a good preacher have to live like Mother Teresa?

Why should society allow a preacher and his church to move money around without it being taxed? Just so the organization can spread hearsay? It's literally of no use to modern society.

And they are paid that much because if they are not, the good ones go somewhere else where there is a board of directors which recognizes that they bring in much, much more than they are paid and are well worth it.

Again, another example of a person using a non-profit for his/her personal gain.

But I digress, were talking about religion here and the purpose they serve the community.

That is tantamount to censorship. The fact is that non-profits are beneficial to society as they do things that for-profit enterprises can't do or won't do.

How is a group of people spreading hearsay beneficial to society? Not taxing religion is the equivalent of not taxing Miss Cleo.

 

[BamaTX]

So, what you're saying is my church should send money to the government each year instead of using it to build shelters for battered women and their children? Stop providing sack lunches for hungry kids in our community? No more clean water and healthcare projects in poorer countries? Stop sending doctors to those countries to help heal the diseased? Stop working the community garden we use to provide over 8,000 pounds of fresh produce to the hungry in our community? Stop providing home repairs for flood victims and the elderly?

If that's what you're saying, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Our hobbies tend to provide positive outcomes for a lot of people.

Never said any of that.

If your church has a program that wants to distribute food, build shelters, or provide other useful services, then that program should be run separately and it shouldn't be taxed.

But the church itself and the mission to spread centuries' old gossip should be taxed.

 

[Mrtejano]

Never said any of that.

If your church has a program that wants to distribute food, build shelters, or provide other useful services, then that program should be run separately and it shouldn't be taxed.

But the church itself and the mission to spread centuries' old gossip should be taxed.

WOW 😯 old gossip. 🤦‍♂️

 

[Fieldtech1]

Religion (and everything that comes with it) shouldn't be tax exempt. The government should treat the act of spreading "religion" as a hobby rather than a public service. Especially since the beliefs they're peddling cannot be verified by science.

But that's just my opinion.

The scam behind most shifty non profits is how the leadership pays themselves. I'd reckon that the leadership behind some of the larger religious broadcasters are taking home over 6 figures (which is more than what their average "congregation" makes).

And it's not just religious broadcasting. There are a ton of non-profits that are run by people who pay themselves ridiculous salaries while amassing massive expense sheets. Some will even make more money than their private sector counterparts.

I think there has to be stronger regulation when it comes to non-profits. Every non profit should have their work scrutinized and their impacts on society measured by our government.

Maybe not the case with all faith based broadcast operators, but KSBJ/ Hope Media does more community outreach and service than any of the commercial multi station clusters in Houston. Many locally run CCM stations still do the type of community outreach and service that the commercial stations used to do before being swallowed by media conglomerates and having their staff gutted.

That said I'm not a huge fan of EMF because they come into town and hurt the locally run community serving CCM stations. They are sorta the iHeart of faith based radio in my eyes.

 

[2Speakers]

Doesn't matter. They should still be taxed on the count that they're only promoting baseless beliefs that in no way benefits the community.

So taxation should be based on how much an entity "benefits the community" and not its profits?

That's one wild tax code you're dreaming up, and one hell of a slippery slope.

Who would apply this arbitrary value to each entity?

 

[BamaTX]

So taxation should be based on how much an entity "benefits the community" and not its profits?

Well, the original spirit of non-profits was to fill any voids that were underserved by the government (federal, state, and local).

I just don't see how religion is something the government needed to spread, so their tax exempt status makes absolutely no sense.

That's one wild tax code you're dreaming up, and one hell of a slippery slope.

Not really. Religious organization should be taxed.

Who would apply this arbitrary value to each entity?

It won't be any more confusing than what we have today. If anything, it would simplify things.

The IRS has already denied some groups tax-exempt statuses for one reason or another (while also approving some straight up scams).

One glowing example is that christian group based out of North Texas because they practically operated as an indoctrination wing for a specific political party.

 

[BamaTX]

Maybe not the case with all faith based broadcast operators, but KSBJ/ Hope Media does more community outreach and service than any of the commercial multi station clusters in Houston. Many locally run CCM stations still do the type of community outreach and service that the commercial stations used to do before being swallowed by media conglomerates and having their staff gutted.

That said I'm not a huge fan of EMF because they come into town and hurt the locally run community serving CCM stations. They are sorta the iHeart of faith based radio in my eyes.

I'm not talking about one specific group, religion, or broadcaster. I'm talking about religion in general. There is absolutely no reason why they should be tax exempt.

Now if they want to continue to provide services that actually help the community, (such as food drives, housing, etc.), Then they can do what existing for-profit businesses do and sponsor existing organization that do this. Or they can help springboard new, independent nonprofits that don't mix religion actual charitable goals.

The point is that every dollar should be accounted for as to what it will be used for.

 

[BamaTX]

WOW 😯 old gossip. 🤦‍♂️

You ever taken a college psychology course? You'd be surprised at what the human brain is capable of when it comes to story telling (both purposely and unknowingly).

Nevermind that we are talking about "gospel" that has been poorly documented and translated into (and from) several languages that have evolved and/or have gone extinct over time.

For example, ever heard of the audience tunning effect?

 

[2Speakers]

Well, the original spirit of non-profits was to fill any voids that were underserved by the government (federal, state, and local).

Assuming that was the "original spirit of non-profits" I think we're far enough from that in general that it's pointless to discuss. There are plenty of atheist non-profit organizations. There are non-profits for every niche cause you can think of - a quick Google search says there are 1.5 million of them in the U.S.

I just don't see how religion is something the government needed to spread, so their tax exempt status makes absolutely no sense.

Refer back to my first post. All of the stuff I mentioned, and so much more, is a direct result of all that "old gossip" you deride.

Not really. Religious organization should be taxed.

Only if we tax every other non-profit organization as well.

This is my point about it being a slippery slope. Who decides if a non-profit deserves to be taxed or not? Who decides if each 501(c)(3) benefits the community? There are plenty of 501(c)(3) organizations who will never do anything so worthy as feeding or clothing even a single homeless person, if our standard for tax exemption were how much a non-profit "benefits the community."

KSBJ promotes this kind of outreach. How about Pacifica? How many homeless people has KPFT sheltered? How many starving children has the station fed? KPFT purchased a new $130,000 transmitter not long ago with donated money. Should they have paid taxes on that donated money first? They are a 501(c)(3) after all - just like a church.

I personally see little to no value in KPFT, and if you look at the ratings, apparently very few people do.

But someone bought them that transmitter.

If we're going to apply a "benefits the community" standard to non-profits, can anyone legitimately say KPFT is anything but a colossal waste of resources? Its TPO is 30.36kW - less efficient than 90% of the commercial FMs in Houston. How much of a carbon footprint has that energy hog that nobody is even listening to generated over the last 50 years?

See, this is the problem with your argument that churches are tax exempt. You think churches are worthless. I have decades of quantifiable proof that KPFT is worthless, and actually harmful to the environment, given its very limited listenership.

I have a sneaking suspicion that if your worldview were to take root, and we started arbitrarily denying tax exempt status based on the relative value to the "community" each tax exempt organization provides, churches would fare far better than most.

 

[davideduardo]

You mean make-believe stories based on old wives' tales?

Most of the Christian Bible, particularly the Old testament, is made up of stories that teach. They are sound, even if you don't believe that someone higher than us created the Universe.

If their cause is to benefit the community, then their surpluses should go towards expanding whatever it is they sought out to do.

And that is what all non-profit entities do.

Doesn't matter. They should still be taxed on the count that they're only promoting baseless beliefs that in no way benefits the community.

Income tax really does not tax company or organization income... it taxes "profits" before they are distributed to the owners. Since a non-profit does not distribute profits, there can be no taxes.

For the sake of this argument, let's stick to "religion", shall we?

All non-profits are treated the same.

Why should society allow a preacher and his church to move money around without it being taxed? Just so the organization can spread hearsay? It's literally of no use to modern society.

If the money is used to promote, expand or improve the non-profit organization's activities, that is totally of use.

Again, another example of a person using a non-profit for his/her personal gain.

No, that is a non-profit trying to get the most effective staff members. When you have to go to the hospital, do you want the cheapest people in charge, or the best?

But I digress, were talking about religion here and the purpose they serve the community.

To many they serve as their compass and their daily roadmap.

How is a group of people spreading hearsay beneficial to society? Not taxing religion is the equivalent of not taxing Miss Cleo.

Since the vast majority of the world's population believes in a higher power, you are not going to find much acceptance to the term "hearsay".

 

[davideduardo]

But the church itself and the mission to spread centuries' old gossip should be taxed.

Like the Ten Commandments. Maybe you think that guidance on how to live in society is wrong.

Tell me which of the ten "old gossip" rules we should abandon. Or we can go to Portland and Baltimore and places like that to see what happens when people have no spiritual guidance.

 

[b-turner]

I suppose the worst part is Bama TX is all for censorship and denying freedom of speech. If it gets done once, it happens again and again returning to bite the hand that launched the concept. Maybe that's because there's plenty of hate in this world already. Just maybe what Bama TX disapproves of helps to channel those negative emotions to something more positive and benign actually making both our worlds a little better or nicer. The real Christians don't walk around telling you they are, so it might surprise you to know who all subscribes to Christian teachings.

 

[Mediafrog+]

Mods: Once again, we have a thread that has run completely off the rails, and needs to be locked. Once the Hope/Way merger is complete and there are operational and programming changes, we can always start a new, relevant thread.

 

[2Speakers]

Mods: Once again, we have a thread that has run completely off the rails, and needs to be locked. Once the Hope/Way merger is complete and there are operational and programming changes, we can always start a new, relevant thread.

The same thing will happen.

Every time anything involving any Christian station gets posted on social media by RadioInsight or whoever, the same guys come along to derail it with off topic stuff relating to taxes.

It gets old.

We're not here to talk taxes, we're here to talk radio. If you want to talk taxes, maybe join an IRS related group or forum?

If the moderators drop the boom on that stuff quickly and delete any posts about taxation, we might be able to actually have a useful discussion about radio.

It appears the bulletin board software used here can alert moderators whenever a keyword is used in a post. Perhaps "tax" should be one of those keywords?

 

[jayxs]

Perhaps "tax" should be one of those keywords?

...or just anything relating to religion. I will miss the massive amounts of butthurt, though.

 

[2Speakers]

...or just anything relating to religion. I will miss the massive amounts of butthurt, though.

Sure. Let's also ban any discussion of Classic Rock, Country and CHR, just because.

Like it or not, there are about 1,600 religious stations in the U.S. They're a big part of radio.

This isn't irsdiscussions.com.

 

[davideduardo]

The same thing will happen.

Every time anything involving any Christian station gets posted on social media by RadioInsight or whoever, the same guys come along to derail it with off topic stuff relating to taxes.

It gets old.

We're not here to talk taxes, we're here to talk radio. If you want to talk taxes, maybe join an IRS related group or forum?

If the moderators drop the boom on that stuff quickly and delete any posts about taxation, we might be able to actually have a useful discussion about radio.

It appears the bulletin board software used here can alert moderators whenever a keyword is used in a post. Perhaps "tax" should be one of those keywords?

We are discussing one of the legislated conditions (tax exemption) that makes religious broadcasting possible to the degree that it is prevalent in the US. As such, and for the moment, I believe the subject is very relevant... and would be even more so were proposals to change the tax exemptions of religious groups. That would affect the viability of religious stations across the country.

That said, since religious organizations spend or keep in reserve all their income, there is no "profit" to be taxed, so the argument is moot unless we move to property tax exemptions as well.

 

[BamaTX]

Assuming that was the "original spirit of non-profits" I think we're far enough from that in general that it's pointless to discuss.

It absolutely is not.

There are plenty of atheist non-profit organizations.

If their goal is to spread a religious or anti religious agenda, then tax them.

Refer back to my first post. All of the stuff I mentioned, and so much more, is a direct result of all that "old gossip" you deride.

Are you saying that without religion, no one would be able to commit a good deed?

Only if we tax every other non-profit organization as well.

This is my point about it being a slippery slope.

But it really isn't. Spreading religion shouldn't be viewed as a service to the community.

Sure, there are also other non religious organizations that also have questionable purposes. But for the purposes of this discussion, I think it's pretty clear and cut that religion serves no public service. It is not a void left behind by our government.

If we're going to apply a "benefits the community" standard to non-profits, can anyone legitimately say KPFT is anything but a colossal waste of resources?

You're more than welcome to question the purpose of KPFT. Hell, we all should.

But some people will argue that KPFT gives a platform for people to express their opinion (without a religious spin, mind you). Sure, they may have religious programming that comes and goes (as do many of their shows), but their sole purpose isn't to promote religion. It is to promote speech.

But again, separating the value between KPFT vs the Houston Food Bank isn't as clear and cut as a Baptist Church and the ACLU

Its TPO is 30.36kW - less efficient than 90% of the commercial FMs in Houston. How much of a carbon footprint has that energy hog that nobody is even listening to generated over the last 50 years?

Not sure what this has to do with our argument.

See, this is the problem with your argument that churches are tax exempt. You think churches are worthless. I have decades of quantifiable proof that KPFT is worthless, and actually harmful to the environment, given its very limited listenership.

Just because a church is good at fooling people at giving them money doesn't mean their gospel is good for the community or that it fills a void that our government isn't filling.

You can argue KPFT is worthless all you want (which I support you). But my argument here is that all religion should pay their share. I have absolutely no interest in dissecting KPFT and the service they offer the community.

I have a sneaking suspicion that if your worldview were to take root, and we started arbitrarily denying tax exempt status based on the relative value to the "community" each tax exempt organization provides, churches would fare far better than most.

Again, I stand for denying tax exempt statuses based on being a religious institution. Tax the hell out of them. If they want to do actual public services that help people, then the congregation is welcomed to spin off an actual non-profit that focuses solely on that.

 

[BamaTX]

Most of the Christian Bible, particularly the Old testament, is made up of stories that teach. They are sound, even if you don't believe that someone higher than us created the Universe.

And that is what all non-profit entities do.

What some non-profits do or don't is for a different discussion. Right now, I'm drawing the line on what is clearly religious institutions taking advantage of tax exempt statuses.

Sure, we can sit here and talk about how Ronald McDonald House Charities is basically

Income tax really does not tax company or organization income... it taxes "profits" before they are distributed to the owners. Since a non-profit does not distribute profits, there can be no taxes.

All non-profits are treated the same.

The donations are the profits.

If the money is used to promote, expand or improve the non-profit organization's activities, that is totally of use.

But religion is of no use and not something that benefits the community.

No, that is a non-profit trying to get the most effective staff members. When you have to go to the hospital, do you want the cheapest people in charge, or the best?

Or it's an example of people using non-profits as a way to enrich themselves (which again goes against the spirit of "non-profit").

BUT I digress. Our argument here is whether church/religion itself should be tax exempt. What purpose do they actually fill?

To many they serve as their compass and their daily roadmap.

Since the vast majority of the world's population believes in a higher power, you are not going to find much acceptance to the term "hearsay".

People used to think that the world was flat. Religion, as it stands today, is the exact definition of hearsay.

Hell, I could sit here for hours listing the endless amount of religious beliefs that science has debunked.

Like the Ten Commandments. Maybe you think that guidance on how to live in society is wrong.

You can have your guidance. Just pay your fair share for it.

For example, there are several "life-coaches" out there who sell books and charge for appearances/shows. You don't see them crying because they have to pay taxes on their revenue.