Houston DXing

[rbrucecarter5]

You wanna talk AM HD? Well then, I hear WBAP loud and crystal clear in HD about 150 miles away. No Dropouts (except for the usual powerlines). Also remind some of you that I have not put in any type of homemade antenna. I still get interference from my spark plug lines, but that doesn't really bother WBAP. Once I fix that problem, I hope I can receive KBME while driving since I can only catch it while the engine is off.
HD has it's downsides, but if these Chips that are coming out (as you say) improve HD radio, then I'll 100% hop on into the HD Radio Bandwagon.

I think I'll call your bluff on this one. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Post a Youtube video of you in - say Eastland - with the Eastland city limit sign, then point the camera at your car radio showing HD lock on WBAP 820 and I'll believe it. Otherwise - I am very skeptical. I have trouble getting HD lock on WBAP in Plano, TX, with a two foot tuned box loop antenna.

Now, if you tell me you increase the effective electrical length of your whip by bottom loading it, making it electrically 1/10 of a wavelength - then I'd tend to believe you. I know that trick can net 600 mile plus reception of a station like WBAP - in the absence of noise. But a 31 inch whip antenna on a car, less than 1/100 the electrical length of an AM station? PROOF. Most cars now days don't even have a 31 in ch whip, making the situation even worse.

It is all about antennas, and location. If you are up on top of a mountain, you get more stations, probably including HD. Down in a valley - you don't. There are some pretty substantial valleys 100 to 120 miles out there towards Abilene. They would affect AM to a degree, certainly FM, but any lock you might get on WBAP at that distance would probably drop out in those valleys, maybe come back again at 150 miles. Assuming you had a good enough antenna. I'll be waiting for the proof.

 

[jd]

I'll be waiting for the proof.

Let's get rrrrrready to rrrrrrrumble! Hey, this could be good...! But seriously, folks, forget the HD lock for a minute. How about a contest of how far out you can hear the AM sideband hash? No You Tube needed on that one, 'cause we all get the picture.

 

[davideduardo]

Ok lets see 550kHz....there's one explanation...

That near-90 mile reception was over low conductivity terrain, the desert to the west of PHX on the 10.

KNX?? another...

That distance was achieved over some of the worst conductivity in the west, the area from around Covina to Redlands on I-10, I-210 (and 30) and the 60 Fwy... in fact, in many places the HD was listenable where the analog never was in pre-HD days (I drive that route twice a week).

Phoenix C's?? up on the mountain tops?? LA B's same situation??

The fact is I took the signals beyond the range where listeners "stop using" a station, which is around the 64 dbu contour. The intent is to show that the HD signal on FM does as well on a third generation receiver as the analog signal in serving listeners in the areas where regular listening happens. Studies of diaries shows about 80% of listening is in the 70 dbu, and another 15% in the 64 dbu to 69 dbu contour. As long as HD serves the existing listener base, it is doing its purpose.

 

[oldjohnny]

You wanna talk AM HD? Well then, I hear WBAP loud and crystal clear in HD about 150 miles away. No Dropouts (except for the usual powerlines). Also remind some of you that I have not put in any type of homemade antenna. I still get interference from my spark plug lines, but that doesn't really bother WBAP. Once I fix that problem, I hope I can receive KBME while driving since I can only catch it while the engine is off.
HD has it's downsides, but if these Chips that are coming out (as you say) improve HD radio, then I'll 100% hop on into the HD Radio Bandwagon.

I think I'll call your bluff on this one. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Post a Youtube video of you in - say Eastland - with the Eastland city limit sign, then point the camera at your car radio showing HD lock on WBAP 820 and I'll believe it. Otherwise - I am very skeptical. I have trouble getting HD lock on WBAP in Plano, TX, with a two foot tuned box loop antenna.

Now, if you tell me you increase the effective electrical length of your whip by bottom loading it, making it electrically 1/10 of a wavelength - then I'd tend to believe you. I know that trick can net 600 mile plus reception of a station like WBAP - in the absence of noise. But a 31 inch whip antenna on a car, less than 1/100 the electrical length of an AM station? PROOF. Most cars now days don't even have a 31 in ch whip, making the situation even worse.

It is all about antennas, and location. If you are up on top of a mountain, you get more stations, probably including HD. Down in a valley - you don't. There are some pretty substantial valleys 100 to 120 miles out there towards Abilene. They would affect AM to a degree, certainly FM, but any lock you might get on WBAP at that distance would probably drop out in those valleys, maybe come back again at 150 miles. Assuming you had a good enough antenna. I'll be waiting for the proof.

You want proof, i'll see what I can do. I am right now in College Station TX and WBAP is rock solid while the car is still and listenable while moving. I am approximately about 145-150 miles away from the Xmitter. Just tell me, would you like a sign of the city limits, or a view of Texas A&M, either can be done ;D

 

[davideduardo]

You want proof, i'll see what I can do. I am right now in College Station TX and WBAP is rock solid while the car is still and listenable while moving. I am approximately about 145-150 miles away from the Xmitter. Just tell me, would you like a sign of the city limits, or a view of Texas A&M, either can be done ;D

This just proves you can not argue with a DXer... while there are very few of them, they make an inordinate amount of noise. As a generalization, their interests are totally opposite the programming and business interests of radio.

 

[jd]

Just tell me, would you like a sign of the city limits, or a view of Texas A&M, either can be done ;D

See, this is getting good! You're right, oldjohnny, it's 147 miles from College Station to WBAP's stick in Mansfield.

How about the city limit sign out in suburban Snook? (I always liked that name.) Or anything maroon in the background. Oh, wait, that could be almost anywhere in Aggieland.

And David, get back to work. We're having fun here.

 

[oldjohnny]

Just tell me, would you like a sign of the city limits, or a view of Texas A&M, either can be done ;D

See, this is getting good! You're right, oldjohnny, it's 147 miles from College Station to WBAP's stick in Mansfield.

How about the city limit sign out in suburban Snook? (I always liked that name.) Or anything maroon in the background. Oh, wait, that could be almost anywhere in Aggieland.

And David, get back to work. We're having fun here.

You're right, even the Whataburger (which are usually orange, the UT type of orange,)is also Maroon.

 

[oldjohnny]

So, I couldn't find my camera, so what to do? I decided to take it with a sucky Motorola camera phone. The quality is bad, but hopefully you can make out the location.

There is a part where I moved the phone to show my location, that's when the audio quality reduces. I don't recall loosing the HD signal at all, so it may be because I moved the phone right at the window. I was driving Manual transmission, so I had it on first gear going 20 mph (just to show engine noise not affecting signal). So that explains the background noise you hear. It was also raining this morning (if you can make out the sky). I took this video while it wasn't raining, but there was a good amount of dark cloud coverage, but as you see, even the big clouds don't damage WBAP. Don't worry, I made shure I had no cars near me.
I'll try to find my other camera and take one more in better quality.

Well, welcome to my dirty truck, take of your shoes (don't want to dirty it up more) and enjoy the ride.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqCFeSf6spI

(P.S., this old 99 ranger has over 165K miles, meaning that my cables are worn out and I am bound for engine noise)

 

[rbrucecarter5]

You want proof, i'll see what I can do. I am right now in College Station TX and WBAP is rock solid while the car is still and listenable while moving. I am approximately about 145-150 miles away from the Xmitter. Just tell me, would you like a sign of the city limits, or a view of Texas A&M, either can be done ;D

You are certainly quite cordial! Quite unlike a lot of pro-HD folks on here. Given that you are willing to provide proof - I think I am inclined to accept your observation. Now - I need to concentrate on what is going wrong with my own setup. Given that the receiver is DARN sensitive, I am wondering if it is my proximity to HV lines. They don't put any interference on analog reception - I have no trouble at all DX'ing very distant stations in analog. But - could their presence be interfering with HD signals somehow? This has ominous implications if true, because most listeners in cars are going to encounter power lines.

Next thing I will try is a 60 Hz notch filter, and see if that helps HD lock. It sounds ridiculous, but there is a substantial 60 Hz hum coming from those power lines. I usually equalize it out - but this is about HD and why it doesn't lock. Another thing I could do is throw a null at the power lines, even though that is approximately a null at the stations.

Isn't this stuff fun?! We all are going back to school!

 

[rbrucecarter5]

This just proves you can not argue with a DXer... while there are very few of them, they make an inordinate amount of noise. As a generalization, their interests are totally opposite the programming and business interests of radio.

Another insult, David? This is unworthy of a professional like yourself and doesn't lend any credibility to what you are saying. "Oldjohnny" and I are having a very interesting exchange, and possibly uncovered an unsuspected problem with AM HD that could be corrected very a very simple filter! Now I would say THAT is in the best interests of programming and business aspects of radio, or at least Ibiquity - if I uncover a significant issue with the system that has a simple fix! Darn I hate to do their engineering work for them - but if they didn't discover this, lets get it fixed!!!

You have yet to answer my question - of what benefit is HD radio to a talk or sports station? Speech is limited in fidelity, nobody programs talk show hosts with left and right mikes, it is mono. The experiments done by radio greats like Ron Chapman indicate even a 40% 60% split on mikes for talk shows is irritating to listeners. So - why does speech, limited to 3 to 4 kHz, need 15 kHz stereo quality? I say again - the only aspect of talk radio and sports radio that will sound any different from C-Quam done right is an additional 10 to 15 kHz, that you and other advocates claim doesn't matter to listeners anyway, and stereo, which doesn't matter on speech at all, less on sports, and was already available with C-Quam. So why the mania with talk and sports stations to convert? They have little if anything to gain, and risk making existing listeners mad because the fidelity is terrible on 99% of the radios out there, and there is audible self-interfering hiss. The advantages of HD are obvious with music formats, but except for Radio Disney and a few other music stations scattered around the country - virtually all HD AM is talk and sports stations. Why? Seems like a total waste to me ---

 

[davideduardo]

Another insult, David? This is unworthy of a professional like yourself and doesn't lend any credibility to what you are saying.

A significant number of board postings in the "rabid anti-HD" area come from DXers. For the first 40 or 50 years of radio, DXers were the allies of stations when distant reception was of economic and listener importance. Today, DXers seem to be the enemy of radio, with myriad reasons why radio is bad because listeners hundreds or thousands of miles away can not hear the stations they want.

You have yet to answer my question - of what benefit is HD radio to a talk or sports station?

AM HD has better fidelity, more presence and is less fatiguing to the ears of the generations that did not grow up listening to AM as a first choice. Even prior to NRSC, AM simply did not sound as good as FM.

Speech is limited in fidelity, nobody programs talk show hosts with left and right mikes, it is mono. The experiments done by radio greats like Ron Chapman indicate even a 40% 60% split on mikes for talk shows is irritating to listeners.

It's not about separation... it is about presence, transparency and that pesky quality of audio, harmonics.

So - why does speech, limited to 3 to 4 kHz, need 15 kHz stereo quality? I say again - the only aspect of talk radio and sports radio that will sound any different from C-Quam done right is an additional 10 to 15 kHz, that you and other advocates claim doesn't matter to listeners anyway, and stereo, which doesn't matter on speech at all, less on sports, and was already available with C-Quam.

C-Quam came too late, and got no buy-in. AM was dead already as a music medium, and folks like Randy Michaels had not yet broadly shown what good AM talk could do. And today, the only chance for AM is to ride the coattails of an FM system. No manufacturer will spend extra to enhance AM which few radio buyers care about... witness the AM part of current AM FM radios.

So why the mania with talk and sports stations to convert?

It sounds better. A lot better.

They have little if anything to gain, and risk making existing listeners mad because the fidelity is terrible on 99% of the radios out there, and there is audible self-interfering hiss. The advantages of HD are obvious with music formats, but except for Radio Disney and a few other music stations scattered around the country - virtually all HD AM is talk and sports stations. Why? Seems like a total waste to me ---

AM has less than a 20% share of listening. In many markets, it is not even double digit today. As has been proven by the moves of AM talkers to FM, the improved quality increases dramatically the 35-54 age listening with the same programming, so it is not the content, it is the band. HD might just keep the few viable signal AMs alive (keeping in mind that in the top 100 markets, there are less than 250 viable AMs).

 

[oldjohnny]

You want proof, i'll see what I can do. I am right now in College Station TX and WBAP is rock solid while the car is still and listenable while moving. I am approximately about 145-150 miles away from the Xmitter. Just tell me, would you like a sign of the city limits, or a view of Texas A&M, either can be done ;D

You are certainly quite cordial! Quite unlike a lot of pro-HD folks on here. Given that you are willing to provide proof - I think I am inclined to accept your observation. Now - I need to concentrate on what is going wrong with my own setup. Given that the receiver is DARN sensitive, I am wondering if it is my proximity to HV lines. They don't put any interference on analog reception - I have no trouble at all DX'ing very distant stations in analog. But - could their presence be interfering with HD signals somehow? This has ominous implications if true, because most listeners in cars are going to encounter power lines.

Next thing I will try is a 60 Hz notch filter, and see if that helps HD lock. It sounds ridiculous, but there is a substantial 60 Hz hum coming from those power lines. I usually equalize it out - but this is about HD and why it doesn't lock. Another thing I could do is throw a null at the power lines, even though that is approximately a null at the stations.

Isn't this stuff fun?! We all are going back to school!

Your situation is very weird, but then again, it is markets like Dallas were HD will have a bit of trouble taking off. The city and suburbs are so spread out that cars and house stereos are bound for drops. I have a friend that lives just outside of McKinney and all the FM's come in clear in HD, but he has never mentioned AM HD. I'll ask him about it.

Now, the only stations that I have yet to listen to from Dallas in HD are KMKI and KRLD (which seems to never happen with 1070 from Houston coming in and KMKI being directional)

So far, from here in BCS, I have DX'ed
KPRC (day)
KAAM (day)
KBME (day)
KLIF (day)
WBAP (day)
WOAI (night and day)
KOA (night)
WTAM (Night)
All in HD. those two last ones are the hardest to catch.

 

[thathoustonradiogeek]

Well, one night during a freak thunderstorm I caught the audio portion of channel 26 on my Walkman.. on the AM band!

SO THERE! ;D

 

[rbrucecarter5]

KOA (night)
WTAM (Night)
All in HD. those two last ones are the hardest to catch.

OK, something is definitely up. I've never caught even a trace of KOA HD, and I am closer. KOA used to be an occasional daytime catch in the DFW area before a local 850 signed on. At night, they are a blowtorch. I can understand why WOAI wouldn't lock in HD, with KXFR on 1190. But from what you say, KOA would be an excellent testbed. Perhaps I had interference from WHAS, which I believe is also HD.

KMKI directionality works really well towards Houston, but they throw a weak signal into the Austin area. In fact, RD fans in Austin are better off tuning in 620 than they are 1160 at night. Something about RD is appealing, they harken back to the era of top-40 radio on AM. They are really pretty listenable. Once I had HD lock, I listened for a couple of hours on my outdoor speakers while I did yard work.

KRLD made it faintly into Cypress, I doubt daytime lock would be possible with local 1070. But as strong as WBAP is, I'll give it a try next time I am down there. I don't think KLIF would lock in HD, because of KLVI.

 

[oldjohnny]

KOA (night)
WTAM (Night)
All in HD. those two last ones are the hardest to catch.

OK, something is definitely up. I've never caught even a trace of KOA HD, and I am closer. KOA used to be an occasional daytime catch in the DFW area before a local 850 signed on. At night, they are a blowtorch. I can understand why WOAI wouldn't lock in HD, with KXFR on 1190. But from what you say, KOA would be an excellent testbed. Perhaps I had interference from WHAS, which I believe is also HD.

KMKI directionality works really well towards Houston, but they throw a weak signal into the Austin area. In fact, RD fans in Austin are better off tuning in 620 than they are 1160 at night. Something about RD is appealing, they harken back to the era of top-40 radio on AM. They are really pretty listenable. Once I had HD lock, I listened for a couple of hours on my outdoor speakers while I did yard work.

KRLD made it faintly into Cypress, I doubt daytime lock would be possible with local 1070. But as strong as WBAP is, I'll give it a try next time I am down there. I don't think KLIF would lock in HD, because of KLVI.

I caught about 4-8 seconds of KOA on about 4 occasions, that was it, and it happened in the early hours of the morning (3-4 AM). Nothing listenable, but of course, I was able to listen.

840 is always flashing HD, but it never sends any data information or never locks in, I don't even bother with it because I have better luck of locking KOA. Recently, I haven't been up in the early dark hours to see how KOA is doing in the winter.

Radio Disney is very hard to catch over here. Actually, it is not even listenable in the analog. It's pattern looks like it is avoiding College Station.

If you are really trying to DX KOA and WTAM, I would suggest getting out of the city. A country side is a dream paradise for DXers. Of course, I'm a very novice DXer, but I'm getting there. I had no luck of getting WOAI in Mexico in HD, I was close, I could feel it. Even the data showed up on the screen as WOAI, but no luck in locking in. I'll try harder next time.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

David ---

I always thought C-Quam sounded as good, if not better than FM stereo. After hearing music on AM, and comparing it to the same songs I heard in C-Quam stereo, I heard some alarming distortion on higher frequencies. Instruments that used to be crisp and clear, now are altered in harmonic content and even pitch.

As far as harmonic content on AM talk, your point is well taken. That assumes that the voice of the person speaking is rich enough in harmonic content. Still, there is nothing inherent in talk radio that requires stereo, nor harmonic content above 10 kHz. Voices sounded plenty rich and clear on talk stations, where the audio chain is good. I know you probably diagree with me - but most new AM receiver designs were wideband mono, and talk radio sounds really good. Assuming you don't chop it off artificially at the station end with a 5 kHz low pass filter, which eliminates those harmonics.

I think we all "get it". There are things you care passionately about: Spanish language programming, HD radio, and the business side. You don't exactly have me pegged, though. I am not anti-HD. I am anti-HD INTERFERENCE. If they had a way of doing this that didn't jam adjacent frequencies, there would be no argument.

As far as your attitude towards "DX'ers", you forget that we hold the key to making this thing work. The average consumer is not a DX'er. But if you want them to get HD radio out in the suburbs, you need to make them into rudimentary DX'ers or it won't work.

 

[oldjohnny]

David ---

As far as your attitude towards "DX'ers", you forget that we hold the key to making this thing work. The average consumer is not a DX'er. But if you want them to get HD radio out in the suburbs, you need to make them into rudimentary DX'ers or it won't work.

Sadly, this seems to be half-true. HD hasn't been worked on in some areas. While I am pro-HD, I think most companies are forgetting that this Digital Hybrid will not work as well as analog signals. It's true that most listeners are well withing 60 and 70 dbu, but the reason I say it is half-true is because rimshots stations like KLTO in San Antonio, KFNC in Houston, and KRNB in Dallas will all fail to cover their prospective metropolitan area. If listeners buy HD radios and buy them for the purpose of listening to their favorite programming in "HD", then they will all become DXers if the station is a rim shot.

Hopefully David, these new Samsung chips you talk about will do the job. Any idea of when they will roll out into the market?


As a

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Radio Disney is very hard to catch over here. Actually, it is not even listenable in the analog. It's pattern looks like it is avoiding College Station.

It is a lot simpler than that. They are protecting KILT 610. If they EVER cut loose those sidebands full blast towards Houston without directionality, KILT would cry bloody murder! KMKI is so strong in places like Benjamin, TX, that it sounds like a local. That would be about the same distance as Conroe in the South.

I still haven't tried more HD AM - been busy making professional contacts for my daughter's acting the last few days.