How can I improve my HD Reception?

[FreestylePete]

I just bought the Accurian HD Radio yesterday from Radio Shock but when i took it to my home I cant get any HD Reception. I placed it by the window with even the antennas placed out side on my terrace ( I live on the beach) but still nothing. Im in long island suburb of NYC.

 

[PocketRadio]

I just bought the Accurian HD Radio yesterday from Radio Shock but when i took it to my home I cant get any HD Reception. I placed it by the window with even the antennas placed out side on my terrace ( I live on the beach) but still nothing. Im in long island suburb of NYC.

First of all, make sure you have an HD Radio station in your area:

http://www.ibiquity.com/hd_radio/hdradio_find_a_station

Because the digital sidebands are only broadcast at 1/100th the power of the main analog channels, your may have to resort to an AM-loop antenna and mounting an external FM-dipole antenna. But, I am just an educated consumer, so it is best to ask the experts.

 

[FreestylePete]

Thanks! Im sure there is HD stations cause im just out side the NYC boarder.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Thanks! Im sure there is HD stations cause im just out side the NYC boarder.

You are in Nassau county, just over the Queens line and you can't receive any IBOC signals? Are you in a private home or an apartment? Which stations are you trying to receive? I'm concluding that you are near Port Washington on the north side or maybe Rockville center. I'd look at a small TV antenna pointed west and see what that does for you. I don't understand how I am able to recieve all the NY IBOC signals from a northern suburb using just a dipole and a BA Receptor.

 

[wgliradio]

Yes, you should have no problem with the Accurian with the supplied antennas if you are in Western Nassau. Even the HD-2's should be an easy snag.

 

[FreestylePete]

Im in a brick Coop building in long Beach on the South Shore. I think its because the building is brick. I tried it first in my parants house and i was pulling in the HD-2 for all the city stations.

 

[Tom Wells]

Im in a brick Coop building in long Beach on the South Shore. I think its because the building is brick. I tried it first in my parants house and i was pulling in the HD-2 for all the city stations.

I can personally attest that brick/steel construction, even in one and two story areas, absorbs a great deal of RF energy.

Older buildings are not simply brick veneer, but 3 or 4 courses of brick, often over 1 foot thick.

It is bad enough with the attenuation inside one building. When the whole neighborhood is built with such structures,
the problem is coumpounded by the other buildings multiplied by neighborhood density.


..just had a look on Google Earth, and yes this area is pre WW2 construction with LOTS of steel and brick.
Back in day when radio was the big thing, such co-op buildings had master antennas and distribution systems.
Or they had a hodgepodge of dozens of wires strung along the roof.

I would expect the FM to work at least. I guess you need to get a dipole standing 3 to 4 feet off the side of the building.
Maybe they'll allow you to put a yagi and rotor up on the roof.

Which side of the building do you have windows on? Did you try another side of the building, if you have one?

 

[R.F. Burns]

Im in a brick Coop building in long Beach on the South Shore. I think its because the building is brick. I tried it first in my parants house and i was pulling in the HD-2 for all the city stations.

The brick isn't the issue at all. It's the metal beams that are killing your reception. You need a real antenna. Is there not a central building antenna? Most apartments supply some form of antenna system for its occupants. If you get a length of RG-6 cable and connect the radio to the antenna jack you'll notice that the radio will come alive. On AM, if you place the loop by a window WCBS and WFAN should come in for you on AM.

 

[Mike Walker]

I live in a brick home, and get HD (FM) from great distances with an indoor antenna. RF is right, it isn't the brick. Now the STEEL, that's a different matter. Ever tried to get decent reception at, say, a Radio Shack (or insert the name of your favorite electronics chain here that's in a structure with a steel frame) in a big city? YES, you're in an RF-rich environment, but that steel frame is to radio signals what cryptonite is to Superman!

Put your antennas near a window. Where you live, most any window should do, and all should be right with the world.

By the way, steel buildings kill all but the strongest radio and tv signals, analog and digital.

 

[Play Freebird]

In any large building, it also makes a difference if you live on the opposite side from the direct path to the station. (In this case, the south or east side, facing away from New York.) Even if the antenna can be placed near a window, the building still attenuates the signal -- and in urban settings, structures in the opposite direction will reflect energy back, causing multipath. Many wood frame structures may also cause significant attenuation at VHF frequencies, if foil-faced insulation was installed in the walls or steel lath is under the stucco.

What the terrestrial radio industry really needs to work on (soon) is a way to allow receivers to find alternate signals. I recommend that the HD Radio data protocol (as well as RBDS) be modified to include transmission of the IP address(es) of the station's audio streams. This would allow properly-equipped receivers (such as the Apple iPhone) to quickly locate and switch to WiFi or another mobile Internet feed, in case the IBOC or FM signals are impaired.

 

[PocketRadio]

By the way, steel buildings kill all but the strongest radio and tv signals, analog and digital.

Not true, except for HD radios - every time that I have visited Best Buy and Radio Shack, I've had no problems picking up analog FM stations, without having to extend the whip antennas, or the need for external FM-dipole antennas.

 

[Tom Wells]

In any large building, it also makes a difference if you live on the opposite side from the direct path to the station. (In this case, the south or east side, facing away from New York.) Even if the antenna can be placed near a window, the building still attenuates the signal -- and in urban settings, structures in the opposite direction will reflect energy back, causing multipath. Many wood frame structures may also cause significant attenuation at VHF frequencies, if foil-faced insulation was installed in the walls or steel lath is under the stucco.

What the terrestrial radio industry really needs to work on (soon) is a way to allow receivers to find alternate signals. I recommend that the HD Radio data protocol (as well as RBDS) be modified to include transmission of the IP address(es) of the station's audio streams. This would allow properly-equipped receivers (such as the Apple iPhone) to quickly locate and switch to WiFi or another mobile Internet feed, in case the IBOC or FM signals are impaired.

Many masonry buildings built between WW1 and WW2 have metal lath under the plaster of ceilings and walls.
It came on rolls and was much faster and cheaper than applying wood lath.
Sometimes the lath was like an diamond-grid wire design, and sometimes it was thin sheet steel with perforated louvers stamped into it.
Either way, it attenuates signals appreciably.

 

[radiopilot]

In any large building, it also makes a difference if you live on the opposite side from the direct path to the station. (In this case, the south or east side, facing away from New York.) Even if the antenna can be placed near a window, the building still attenuates the signal -- and in urban settings, structures in the opposite direction will reflect energy back, causing multipath. Many wood frame structures may also cause significant attenuation at VHF frequencies, if foil-faced insulation was installed in the walls or steel lath is under the stucco.

What the terrestrial radio industry really needs to work on (soon) is a way to allow receivers to find alternate signals. I recommend that the HD Radio data protocol (as well as RBDS) be modified to include transmission of the IP address(es) of the station's audio streams. This would allow properly-equipped receivers (such as the Apple iPhone) to quickly locate and switch to WiFi or another mobile Internet feed, in case the IBOC or FM signals are impaired.

Many masonry buildings built between WW1 and WW2 have metal lath under the plaster of ceilings and walls.
It came on rolls and was much faster and cheaper than applying wood lath.
Sometimes the lath was like an diamond-grid wire design, and sometimes it was thin sheet steel with perforated louvers stamped into it.
Either way, it attenuates signals appreciably.

So basically.. what everyone is saying is that analog signals have no trouble getting to the analog radios the original poster indicates he gets till he bought an HD radio and being very close to stations in NYC broadcasting HD cannot recieve them?

So now buildings must come down to allow HD signals reception to be improved?

So in order for the people who bought HD radios they must contort their homes and install all sorts of wires across buildings and insert cables to their radios that mind you they weren't doing before with analog radios to recieve HD signals?

One must live on this side of the street, home or apartment facing XX degrees from radio tower 'X', with XX length of wire or antenna, and the stars must be perfectly in alignment and THEN maybe if the home/apartment is made out of wood construction without nails and metal piping can THEN one capture and listen to HD radio!

WOW that's a big stretch.... No wonder the radios are either going back to the stores or people just continue to listen to the HD radios in the analog mode.

Radiopilot

 

[FreestylePete]

Thanks for all the input so far. Im facing the ocean but east. The building is brick from 1962. I bought a 60 trek antenna from circuit city. it helps pulling in the analog FM stations but still nothing with HD. I even used the indoor antenna outdoors with no luck. The building wont allow any outdoor antennas. I am running out of ideas and i really want to keep the radio.

 

[Mike Walker]

Anyone who says steel buildings don't affect analog reception is either uninformed, or technilly illiterate. It's not even possible that HD would be impacted, and analog not at all, BECAUSE THEY USE THE SAME FREQUENCIES! If a building's structure attenuates radio signals in a frequency band, then ANY broadcast in that band of frequencies will be affected in some way. With analog am it may mean a higher background noise. With analog fm it may mean blending to mono (so many who boast of analog fm's "supreior" reception don't even realize THEY'VE BEEN LISTENING TO MONO, OR BLENDED STEREO! OF COURSE IT'S QUIETER!), or with HD it may mean an inability to lock onto the digital signals. The exact impact may be different with different transmission modes, but all are affected IN SOME WAY.

Anyone who says raidio reception, analog or digital, isn't affected by a radio being inside a mall or other steel structure, is just a moron. You may be able to get SOME, strong signals, but take a list of stations you can receive in the parking lot, then take your radio indoors. If you get them all, and as clearly as outdoors, it's my treat at Orange Julius! I'm not too worried about having to pay up!

People who pretend they have something to contribute to a technical discussion, and then deny that a steel building impacts radio reception in ANY mode, stick out like Roseanne Barr in a string bikini! No need to try and mask your ignorance (lack of beauty). It's on display for all to see.

 

[radiopilot]

Anyone who says steel buildings don't affect analog reception is either uninformed, or technilly illiterate. It's not even possible that HD would be impacted, and analog not at all, BECAUSE THEY USE THE SAME FREQUENCIES! If a building's structure attenuates radio signals in a frequency band, then ANY broadcast in that band of frequencies will be affected in some way. With analog am it may mean a higher background noise. With analog fm it may mean blending to mono (so many who boast of analog fm's "supreior" reception don't even realize THEY'VE BEEN LISTENING TO MONO, OR BLENDED STEREO! OF COURSE IT'S QUIETER!), or with HD it may mean an inability to lock onto the digital signals. The exact impact may be different with different transmission modes, but all are affected IN SOME WAY.

Anyone who says raidio reception, analog or digital, isn't affected by a radio being inside a mall or other steel structure, is just a moron. You may be able to get SOME, strong signals, but take a list of stations you can receive in the parking lot, then take your radio indoors. If you get them all, and as clearly as outdoors, it's my treat at Orange Julius! I'm not too worried about having to pay up!

People who pretend they have something to contribute to a technical discussion, and then deny that a steel building impacts radio reception in ANY mode, stick out like Roseanne Barr in a string bikini! No need to try and mask your ignorance (lack of beauty). It's on display for all to see.

Mike...

You must be calling Freestyle a moron because he just stated he gets analog FM just fine with his antenna...

Thanks for all the input so far. Im facing the ocean but east. The building is brick from 1962. I bought a 60 trek antenna from circuit city. it helps pulling in the analog FM stations but still nothing with HD. I even used the indoor antenna outdoors with no luck. The building wont allow any outdoor antennas. I am running out of ideas and i really want to keep the radio.

Glad MIKE that you can SEE too.. Ignorance is yours to behold as well...

Now.. That said I'm SURE there are all those residents in that same building Freestyle lives in that also receive the FM and AM just fine awithout complaints and now HD comes along to quell mass confusion as to WHY they don't recieve that CHERISHED HD signal the FCC, Ibiquity, and the HD Radio Alliance has promised to so many... LIES LIES LIES is all I can conjure up... attacking my intelligence is nonsense and ill concieved at best!

Radiopilot

 

[PocketRadio]

Thanks for all the input so far. Im facing the ocean but east. The building is brick from 1962. I bought a 60 trek antenna from circuit city. it helps pulling in the analog FM stations but still nothing with HD. I even used the indoor antenna outdoors with no luck. The building wont allow any outdoor antennas. I am running out of ideas and i really want to keep the radio.

I hope, that you kept your receipts for all that gear - kind of reminds me of putting the first man on the moon ! I'll stick with my excellent $10 Sony pocket-radio.

 

[Play Freebird]

There are several major problems affecting indoor reception:

1) Attenuation of the RF signal due to the building's materials

2) Increased noise floor, due to proximity to TV sets, PCs, monitors, and other household appliances that generate "hash"

3) Inability to orient the antenna for strongest signal and/or least multipath (not always, but frequently an issue)

3A) Detuning effect of other metal objects on the indoor antenna. For instance, if the radio's whip or line cord antenna is near a large metal object, its impedance will vary significantly from "free space". This is a minor problem, but could have an impact of a dB or two, which might be the difference of climbing up or falling down the "digital cliff".

Analog FM is often more forgiving of these problems than HD, mainly because the required signal strength for "acceptable" analog mono reception is lower. HD receivers must have a wide IF passband to allow the digital sidebands to pass through to the demod -- and the wider the IF, the more noise comes through the "window".

I just returned from the local mall, where I discussed this problem with a friend who's a Radio Shack manager. It's impossible to receive any HD signals in his store, 25 miles west of Philadelphia. Yep, his space is on the west side of the building, so all that concrete and steel are blocking the direct path from the transmitters. He asked the landlord about installing a rooftop antenna, but they want $700/month, so that's not going to happen. He says it's not easy to sell HD radios when they don't work in the store.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

You will definitely need an antenna with some gain. I recommend trying to find one of the Radio Shack $30 Yagis before they are completely out of production. I had very good luck hanging one from the ceiling of my apartment's terrace. It was a large enough terrace that the antenna was all but invisible, I even painted it to match the wood. I had 280 mile reception (Dallas from far Southwest Houston), so you should have no trouble at all with the weak HD signals.

The main trick with yagi antennas is to point them at the station, they are highly directional.

 

[Chuck]

I suspect the real problem is a very simple, but it’s one for which there is no immediate cure. The HD signal is 20 db lower than the analog signal. There is a point where it is no longer usable without going to extraordinary measures, like installing high gain antennas.

We all acknowledge that buildings can and do attenuate signals. How much attenuation occurs will depend on the building itself. Even though the gentleman lives in a higher field strength contour, let's say the gentleman's apartment gets a 60 dbu signal indoors on most NYC analog stations, His hypothetical 60dbu signal is enough for very reliable conventional listening. It even works fine on the $19.95 clock radio from the drug store. Unfortunately, that means HD signal is 20 db lower or 40 dbu. Even the most optimistic HD folks acknowledge that isn't enough of a signal for reliable reception.

Until the FCC decides that the HD component needs to be about 10% of the analog power, then reception is going to be spotty in many instances. The bad news (or maybe not, depending on your point of view), is it is unlikely the FCC will go for that much of a power increase, unless the station opts to become totally digital and drops the analog signal entirely. I wouldn’t look for that to happen very soon.

I think you will find that in early stages hybrid analog & digital testing, that level is exactly what the experimenters found out worked pretty well. Unfortunately, with a digital signal at 10% of the analog power, they also found that interference will become quite an issue. Ibiquity knew about the interference problems, and chose the 1% digital power level to minimize the negative effects. That is why we have what we have. It’s a compromise which replaces existing problems with new ones. When it works, HD works very well. When there are problems with signal strength, it doesn’t work at all.