HOW CAN THE BAY NOT HAVE A CLASSIC/VARIETY HITS STATION??

[airpab]

The Band doesn't count!....It's essentially a Classic Rock station! (and a boring one at that)

If you look at the latest PPM's in almost every major market, Classic/Variety Hits stations are in the Top 10, Number 1 or 2, and/or climbing rapidly. Some markets have 2 or even 3 stations running the format??

In Riverside/San Bernardino (where KRTH's signal easily covers), KOLA is Number 1 by an impressive margin...6.9 vs. KGGI's 5.7 !?

So again I ask.....To anyone that knows radio, is in radio or Programs radio.................How does this make sense??????

How can Bay Area radio (usually at the forefront) be so far behind the curve on this one??

 

[LKellerIII]

The Band doesn't count!....It's essentially a Classic Rock station! (and a boring one at that)

If you look at the latest PPM's in almost every major market, Classic/Variety Hits stations are in the Top 10, Number 1 or 2, and/or climbing rapidly. Some markets have 2 or even 3 stations running the format??

In Riverside/San Bernardino (where KRTH's signal easily covers), KOLA is Number 1 by an impressive margin...6.9 vs. KGGI's 5.7 !?

So again I ask.....To anyone that knows radio, is in radio or Programs radio.................How does this make sense??????

How can Bay Area radio (usually at the forefront) be so far behind the curve on this one??

I'm assuming your talking about a "Jack" format. I think the answer to that question is - Bonneville tried it with Max FM, and it was not a success. I thought it was a good station, and I thought the comedic interludes by John O'Hurley's "Maxwell" (i.e.: Peterman) character were clever, too....but it was just another in a line of 95.7 failures. Why? Not sure - though some people posting here thought it was inferior to CBS's Jack in LA.

There was speculation at the time that CBS was going to "jack" 99.7 until Bonneville got the jump on them. Perhaps that would have been a success - who knows? Because Max was a flop, they're probably afraid to try it again.

And it doesn't work in all markets - Jack in New York (101.1) returned to Classic Hits after a year or two.

 

[sfradio]

95.7 max fm was too boring, it was basically like a classic hits station with some wow tracks sprinkled in, that was probably why it was a flop

 

[airpab]

I'm talking about a KRTH/KOOL/WCBS/Q105/KOLA type station!

 

[LKellerIII]

I'm talking about a KRTH/KOOL/WCBS/Q105/KOLA type station!

Oh...well, as you know (since you contributed a comment or two), we've been discussing that on another thread

http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,158081.0.html

 

[davideduardo]

In Riverside/San Bernardino (where KRTH's signal easily covers), KOLA is Number 1 by an impressive margin...6.9 vs. KGGI's 5.7 !?

But in 18-49 and 25-54, both KGGI snd KLYY are ahead. And in 18-49, I was told, KOLA is tied with KLVE from LA.

 

[TheBigA]

I imagine the audience that might listen to such a station is either subscribing to satellite radio, or listening to internet radio, and they don't have the patience for the typical playlist offered by such a format. Let's face it: SF was ground zero for progressive and acid rock. The audience for this probably still lives in the area, up in Marin. But they don't want to hear just hits. They want to hear the music of the era, which wasn't, for the most part, charted. At least not on national airplay charts. And that's how a lot of these stations are programmed.

 

[1069_KIFR]

If there is a Program Director out there that feels they could make money and ratings with such a format, it would have already happened. 95.7 MAX flopped, 106.9 KFRC was a joke, so no one (right now) is willing to blow up their current format for something that is a HUGE gamble.

Just like FM News/Talk....Classic Hits do not have a Bay Area reputation of making money and delivering high ratings.

 

[davideduardo]

I imagine the audience that might listen to such a station is either subscribing to satellite radio, or listening to internet radio, and they don't have the patience for the typical playlist offered by such a format. Let's face it: SF was ground zero for progressive and acid rock. The audience for this probably still lives in the area, up in Marin. But they don't want to hear just hits. They want to hear the music of the era, which wasn't, for the most part, charted. At least not on national airplay charts. And that's how a lot of these stations are programmed.

In much smaller markets than San Francisco, a "safe list" derived from airplay at stations in comparable markets in the region might be used today... but we are talking about Bakersfield and Dothan and Springfield, MO, sized places, not Market #4.

The issues of regionalized taste are compensated for by doing music testing. A good example of how a test can cause considerable differentiation even in contiguous markets can be seen by looking at KRTH and KOLA, LA and The Inland Empire. KOLA has a much different feel, perhaps a bit more rock flavored, while KRTH is closer to a pop AC sound.

What both stations share is a commitment to entertaining, appropriate, talent as well as promotions and a bit of "fun on the radio" without being too stilted and 60's sounding .

On the other hand, the beggest successes in the transition from oldies to classic hits are CBS stations like KRTH, WCBS-FM, WOGL, KOOL_FM, etc. If they did not keep or fix the format in SF, maybe they know something we don't.

 

[davideduardo]

If there is a Program Director out there that feels they could make money and ratings with such a format, it would have already happened.

That's not a decision a PD would even make.

 

[TheBigA]

If they did not keep or fix the format in SF, maybe they know something we don't.

Here's what we know: KRTH, KOOL, WOGL, and WCBS are heritage stations in their markets, with built-in fans and image. But with an ever-aging demo, they're all living on borrowed time, because revenues from that demo are declining quickly. If any station in SF blows up what they have for this format, they will have to hire expensive big name talent, and their investment won't lead to long term profits.

 

[SFStatic]

It depends on how you market it. Yes, it will cost some money. Note that KDFC plays music that is hundreds of years old in most cases, and they have reasonable numbers and make a profit. Most classical stations that do succeed play "the top 100 hits of classical music," essentially. This has been one of the big failings of most jazz outlets. They are way too broad, and sink under the weight of music that is too unfamiliar or too difficult for even a good slice of the masses to process and stick with.

Classic hits, with a good airstaff, decent promotion, a good signal, etc, can succeed here just as in other markets. Unfortunately, this combination has not been put forth in a long time. Scott Shannon on a ratty frequency certainly doesn't qualify.

 

[TheBigA]

But as we've been saying, no one is willing to blow up a good signal, and spend the money for talent & promotion for an aging demo.

The fact is the classic hits audience doesn't want limited playlists, and there are pages of comments from KOOL and KRTH listeners on this board to prove it. These are demanding listeners who don't just want the Top 100.

Comparing classic hits to classical music is a bad analogy, because in the last few months, commercial classical stations in NYC and Boston have been sold to non-commercial operations, because (in part) the demo is too old to sell to advertisers. I predict the same thing will happen to this format in the next few years.

 

[LKellerIII]

But as we've been saying, no one is willing to blow up a good signal, and spend the money for talent & promotion for an aging demo.

The fact is the classic hits audience doesn't want limited playlists, and there are pages of comments from KOOL and KRTH listeners on this board to prove it. These are demanding listeners who don't just want the Top 100.

Comparing classic hits to classical music is a bad analogy, because in the last few months, commercial classical stations in NYC and Boston have been sold to non-commercial operations, because (in part) the demo is too old to sell to advertisers. I predict the same thing will happen to this format in the next few years.

I don't know about KOOL, but KRTH's play list is not just the Top 100. It was 300 songs under PD Mike Phillips back some years. It did great for awhile, but started to run out of gas - probably because people were bored with it. In that era, if you listened to the station for a couple hours a day, you'd hear a lot of repetition. After Phillips retired, PD Jay Coffey (remember him, 106.9 fans?) kept the same philosophy and the station continued to lose listeners. But under Jhani Kaye, they have expanded the play list a great deal....though I can't tell you how large it is - 600? 800?

I've visited LA both of the last 2 summers, and listened to KRTH a lot while spending hours (and hours, and hours, and hours) on their endless freeways. Unlike the Phillips era, I detected very little repetition - the only song I remember hearing twice in the week I was there was Mr. Tambourine Man by the Byrds (?). Now, I fully understand that with even as many as 900 songs, there has got to be a fair amount of repetition - but the rotation is done very artfully.

If I lived there, I would no doubt listen to other stations...I don't have a "favorite" station here either (well, maybe KQED), but I would certainly listen to KRTH often.

As for people on the LA board bitching about the station...sure - that's what people do on these boards, and people have different opinions about what the "perfect" classic hits station would sound like. No surprise there.

 

[airpab]

Ok.....Here's a perfect example of how I would bet the farm this format would/could work in the Bay.....If done right!

105.7/The Walrus in San Diego!

Virtually came out of nowhere and within a few books, was in the Top 10 in a market that KRTH get's into as well, if not better, in some parts of the county !

If that's not proof that this format is viable and in demand, I don't know what is??

Granted, The Bay's demo's are a tad different, but there's also twice the amount of potential listeners there!

BigA-

This format isn't going anywhere. As proven by KRTH, KOOL and WCBS, the format can evolve with the demo's as long as the people programming it are paying attention.

Ex: Just a relatively short time ago, KOOL & KRTH were heavy 60's, until they realized that they needed to adjust to heavy 70's, light 60's & 80's...to get the demo's they needed!

Don't think anyone can argue with the success this has brought both stations and others like them!

 

[LKellerIII]

Ok.....Here's a perfect example of how I would bet the farm this format would/could work in the Bay.....If done right!

105.7/The Walrus in San Diego!

Virtually came out of nowhere and within a few books, was in the Top 10 in a market that to some degree, KRTH covers almost as well !

If that's not proof that this format is viable, I don't know what is??

Granted, The Bay's demo's are a tad different, but there's also twice the amount of potential listeners there!

BigA-

This format isn't going anywhere. As proven by KRTH, KOOL and WCBS, the format can evolve with the demo's as long as the people programming it are paying attention.

Ex: Just a relatively short time ago, KOOL & KRTH were heavy 60's, until they realized that they needed to adjust to heavy 70's, light 60's & 80's...to get the demo's they needed!

Don't think anyone can argue with the success this has brought both stations and others like them!

Exactly. People talk about the format dying out because of the aging demo. Just as they've added 80s hits recently, there's no reason 90s hits can't be added in a few years, then the hits of the "00s" once they've covered all us baby boomers with 6 feet of dirt. Granted, those 60s hits will be totally gone eventually, just as 50s hits are gone now.

Another good station in SoCal is KDES in Palm Springs, which has a couple of new, very entertaining DJs. They're also more 80s intensive that KRTH, but they sound great. It's a very professional major-market sounding station now.

 

[TheBigA]

I don't know about KOOL, but KRTH's play list is not just the Top 100.

I didn't say that it was. My point is that even with a broad playlists, you will find loads of posts on this board from Oldies fans in LA who aren't happy with the music choices there. I believe that could be even more difficult in SF. As I clearly said, these are demanding fans who aren't satisfied with Top 100. That may work in other formats, but it won't work here.

Don't think anyone can argue with the success this has brought both stations and others like them!

Success in ratings hasn't translated to success in revenues. While that is OK with a heritage station that requires no new investment, it is impossible for a start-up. Which is why no one will blow up the programming on a good signal in SF for a demo advertisers don't want.

People talk about the format dying out because of the aging demo. Just as they've added 80s hits recently, there's no reason 90s hits can't be added in a few years, then the hits of the "00s" once they've covered all us baby boomers with 6 feet of dirt.

That's a different format. WCBS NY listeners are arguing now over the airplay of Madonna on a 60s/70s station. Especially when that music is covered in AC. People of that generation want to hear their hits in their environment. Bringing in music of a younger generation doesn't always gel with the previous music.

And once again, my main point is that ratings success has NOT translated into revenues. THAT is the main reason why this won't happen. Not ratings.

 

[andreajesus]

Couple of points here:

1) WCBS NY listeners are NOT arguing over Madonna being even played on a classic hits/variety station....
2) The format CAN work if it's done RIGHT - WCBS NY's ratings are proof...
3) (For L. Keller) - the whole Jack/CBS 101 thing was just bad from the start - wrong, wrong, wrong - the wrong station was picked to do the format on, the publicity machine did NOT work on this one, the ANTI-Jack backlash was through the roof, and for the record, the reason that Jack "died" in NY was because when Dan Mason came aboard to run the whole CBS NY radio conglom, the FIRST things he saw were the 92.3 debacle, and the 101.1 debacle - and he took corrective action on BOTH....

Having said that, classic hits/variety CAN work in San Francisco - but it's got to be the right combination...

 

[davideduardo]

But under Jhani Kaye, they have expanded the play list a great deal....though I can't tell you how large it is - 600? 800?

About 800 different titles each week.

If I lived there, I would no doubt listen to other stations...I don't have a "favorite" station here either (well, maybe KQED), but I would certainly listen to KRTH often.

And one thing the PPM shows is that nearly everyone listens to 4 to 6 stations in a week, more over longer periods. This is not because rotations are too tight or the list is too short... it's because most people like a number of types of programming and will often change for mood or variety.

As for people on the LA board bitching about the station...sure - that's what people do on these boards, and people have different opinions about what the "perfect" classic hits station would sound like. No surprise there.

Well stated.. KRTH's 12+ total cume is well above the total 12+ population of San Diego or Riverside / san Berdoo, so comparing it with KOLA or XEPRS-FM is a bit of a leap...

 

[davideduardo]

Having said that, classic hits/variety CAN work in San Francisco - but it's got to be the right combination...

I have to agree with TheBigA's accurate assesment that building on the heritage or WCBS FM or KOOL or KRTH is one thing, but creating a new station may be another. Since this is an old demo format it will bill less than many others with comparable numbers, and the revenue base is a start-from-scratch proposition.