-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
How do they do that?
- Thread starter WRPO
- Start date
M
MAT
Guest
> Can anyone tell me how WINF-LP ( Delaware, 101.9 ) gets the
> great range they get with only 59 Watts ERP? We are running
> 100 Watts ERP and can only get about 10 miles... on a good
> day!
>
Oh ya, they've beening running illegal for a few years now! Don't let anyone else on here tell you otherwise for any reason. They'll get caught one of these days. BTW, sometimes I can pick you up just past Wapakoneta....although very weak!
> great range they get with only 59 Watts ERP? We are running
> 100 Watts ERP and can only get about 10 miles... on a good
> day!
>
Oh ya, they've beening running illegal for a few years now! Don't let anyone else on here tell you otherwise for any reason. They'll get caught one of these days. BTW, sometimes I can pick you up just past Wapakoneta....although very weak!
> > Can anyone tell me how WINF-LP ( Delaware, 101.9 ) gets
> the
> > great range they get with only 59 Watts ERP? We are
> running
> > 100 Watts ERP and can only get about 10 miles... on a good
>
> > day!
> >
> Oh ya, they've beening running illegal for a few years now!
> Don't let anyone else on here tell you otherwise for any
> reason. They'll get caught one of these days. BTW, sometimes
> I can pick you up just past Wapakoneta....although very
> weak!
>
I will comment on my observations as I have noted them. I can pick them up in Eastern Clark county on I-70 well west of London. That's 40 miles away. I can pick them up downtown with all the signal overloading at 20 miles away. That's an amazing 59 watts of power they have.
Perhaps commercial firms being worried about interference from low power stations is true?
Trick_Magnet
> the
> > great range they get with only 59 Watts ERP? We are
> running
> > 100 Watts ERP and can only get about 10 miles... on a good
>
> > day!
> >
> Oh ya, they've beening running illegal for a few years now!
> Don't let anyone else on here tell you otherwise for any
> reason. They'll get caught one of these days. BTW, sometimes
> I can pick you up just past Wapakoneta....although very
> weak!
>
I will comment on my observations as I have noted them. I can pick them up in Eastern Clark county on I-70 well west of London. That's 40 miles away. I can pick them up downtown with all the signal overloading at 20 miles away. That's an amazing 59 watts of power they have.
Perhaps commercial firms being worried about interference from low power stations is true?
Trick_Magnet
Maybe it is their HAAT
> > > Can anyone tell me how WINF-LP ( Delaware, 101.9 ) gets
> > the
> > > great range they get with only 59 Watts ERP? We are
> > running
> > > 100 Watts ERP and can only get about 10 miles... on a
> good
> >
> > > day!
> > >
Hi,
Maybe it is their HAAT.
WINF-LP HAAT = 129 feet
WRPO HAAT = 82 feet
(according to RadioLocator data).
If I racall, range varies as the square root of height. 129/82 = 1.57, sqrt (1.57) = 1.25 or 25% more range all other things being equal.
100 W. vs. 59 W. makes no difference if you are over the horizon. WINF-LP horizon is 25% farther out. Just a rough guess.
Neil
> > > Can anyone tell me how WINF-LP ( Delaware, 101.9 ) gets
> > the
> > > great range they get with only 59 Watts ERP? We are
> > running
> > > 100 Watts ERP and can only get about 10 miles... on a
> good
> >
> > > day!
> > >
Hi,
Maybe it is their HAAT.
WINF-LP HAAT = 129 feet
WRPO HAAT = 82 feet
(according to RadioLocator data).
If I racall, range varies as the square root of height. 129/82 = 1.57, sqrt (1.57) = 1.25 or 25% more range all other things being equal.
100 W. vs. 59 W. makes no difference if you are over the horizon. WINF-LP horizon is 25% farther out. Just a rough guess.
Neil
Re: Maybe it is their HAAT
> Hi,
>
> Maybe it is their HAAT.
>
> WINF-LP HAAT = 129 feet
> WRPO HAAT = 82 feet
> (according to RadioLocator data).
>
> If I racall, range varies as the square root of height.
> 129/82 = 1.57, sqrt (1.57) = 1.25 or 25% more range all
> other things being equal.
>
> 100 W. vs. 59 W. makes no difference if you are over the
> horizon. WINF-LP horizon is 25% farther out. Just a rough
> guess.
>
> Neil
>
Not that much difference. The only advantage I can see is that 101.9 is a relatively open frequency in central Ohio. And their lower first adjacents (Newark and Urbana on 101.7) are Class A stations, instead of a Class B for WRPO
> Hi,
>
> Maybe it is their HAAT.
>
> WINF-LP HAAT = 129 feet
> WRPO HAAT = 82 feet
> (according to RadioLocator data).
>
> If I racall, range varies as the square root of height.
> 129/82 = 1.57, sqrt (1.57) = 1.25 or 25% more range all
> other things being equal.
>
> 100 W. vs. 59 W. makes no difference if you are over the
> horizon. WINF-LP horizon is 25% farther out. Just a rough
> guess.
>
> Neil
>
Not that much difference. The only advantage I can see is that 101.9 is a relatively open frequency in central Ohio. And their lower first adjacents (Newark and Urbana on 101.7) are Class A stations, instead of a Class B for WRPO
Re: Maybe it is their HAAT
> > Hi,
> >
> > Maybe it is their HAAT.
> >
> > WINF-LP HAAT = 129 feet
> > WRPO HAAT = 82 feet
> > (according to RadioLocator data).
> >
> > If I racall, range varies as the square root of height.
> > 129/82 = 1.57, sqrt (1.57) = 1.25 or 25% more range all
> > other things being equal.
> >
> > 100 W. vs. 59 W. makes no difference if you are over the
> > horizon. WINF-LP horizon is 25% farther out. Just a
> rough
> > guess.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> Not that much difference. The only advantage I can see is
> that 101.9 is a relatively open frequency in central Ohio.
> And their lower first adjacents (Newark and Urbana on 101.7)
> are Class A stations, instead of a Class B for WRPO
>
WINF-LP pegs my signal meter. WCYC-LP (105.1) which is only 7 miles further away cannot be received at all. That is quite a disparity. WOBN's (101.5) range is miniscule compared to WINF.
In my previous post, I mentioned being able to receive WINF way into Clark County. That is well into WKSW's listening area. Granted it wasn't strong enough to cause interference to WKSW but it was startling their signal goes that far.
Trick_Magnet
> > Hi,
> >
> > Maybe it is their HAAT.
> >
> > WINF-LP HAAT = 129 feet
> > WRPO HAAT = 82 feet
> > (according to RadioLocator data).
> >
> > If I racall, range varies as the square root of height.
> > 129/82 = 1.57, sqrt (1.57) = 1.25 or 25% more range all
> > other things being equal.
> >
> > 100 W. vs. 59 W. makes no difference if you are over the
> > horizon. WINF-LP horizon is 25% farther out. Just a
> rough
> > guess.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> Not that much difference. The only advantage I can see is
> that 101.9 is a relatively open frequency in central Ohio.
> And their lower first adjacents (Newark and Urbana on 101.7)
> are Class A stations, instead of a Class B for WRPO
>
WINF-LP pegs my signal meter. WCYC-LP (105.1) which is only 7 miles further away cannot be received at all. That is quite a disparity. WOBN's (101.5) range is miniscule compared to WINF.
In my previous post, I mentioned being able to receive WINF way into Clark County. That is well into WKSW's listening area. Granted it wasn't strong enough to cause interference to WKSW but it was startling their signal goes that far.
Trick_Magnet
Re: Maybe it is their HAAT
> Not that much difference. The only advantage I can see is
> that 101.9 is a relatively open frequency in central Ohio.
> And their lower first adjacents (Newark and Urbana on 101.7)
> are Class A stations, instead of a Class B for WRPO
>
Perhaps you are right but how do you know it is not the HAAT?
Neil
> Not that much difference. The only advantage I can see is
> that 101.9 is a relatively open frequency in central Ohio.
> And their lower first adjacents (Newark and Urbana on 101.7)
> are Class A stations, instead of a Class B for WRPO
>
Perhaps you are right but how do you know it is not the HAAT?
Neil
Re: Maybe it is their HAAT
OK, just ran the contours on both WRPO and WINF.
Looked for the 34 dbu signal, based on the 50/50 curves (which is 50 microvolts--a good car radio can pull this up in the absense of interference).
WRPO, for 36 points, has almost circular coverage, with the contour out at 25.2 kilometers in every direction. However, this is because they are below 100 feet above average. Raise their HAAT to 129 feet, and the coverage shows a "notch" towards the east, dropping to 22 km, while in other directions it is at 27 km on average.
WINF, for 36 points, has better coverage to the south, almost 28 km. To the west it is 25 km., to the east and north, 22 KM. For reference, 24 km is 15 miles.
So, operating with their licensed powers, WRPO has, on paper, the better overall coverage.
The other variation which is not clearly listed in the FCC data base is the transmitting antenna. The low power FM c.p.'s specify a horizontal antenna. However, the rules allow LPFM's to use a horizontal, vertical or circular antenna. All things being equal, a vertical or c.p. antenna will obviously work better on a car radio than a horizontal antenna.
WINF, according to the FCC database, is on the old 107.9 tower (at the 1550 site) just east of downtown Delaware. WINF lists an "FM4"?--the old 107.9 antenna? Don't know what RPO uses, but our orignal poster can enlighten us. <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by tpt on 12/21/05 01:59 PM.</FONT></P>
OK, just ran the contours on both WRPO and WINF.
Looked for the 34 dbu signal, based on the 50/50 curves (which is 50 microvolts--a good car radio can pull this up in the absense of interference).
WRPO, for 36 points, has almost circular coverage, with the contour out at 25.2 kilometers in every direction. However, this is because they are below 100 feet above average. Raise their HAAT to 129 feet, and the coverage shows a "notch" towards the east, dropping to 22 km, while in other directions it is at 27 km on average.
WINF, for 36 points, has better coverage to the south, almost 28 km. To the west it is 25 km., to the east and north, 22 KM. For reference, 24 km is 15 miles.
So, operating with their licensed powers, WRPO has, on paper, the better overall coverage.
The other variation which is not clearly listed in the FCC data base is the transmitting antenna. The low power FM c.p.'s specify a horizontal antenna. However, the rules allow LPFM's to use a horizontal, vertical or circular antenna. All things being equal, a vertical or c.p. antenna will obviously work better on a car radio than a horizontal antenna.
WINF, according to the FCC database, is on the old 107.9 tower (at the 1550 site) just east of downtown Delaware. WINF lists an "FM4"?--the old 107.9 antenna? Don't know what RPO uses, but our orignal poster can enlighten us. <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by tpt on 12/21/05 01:59 PM.</FONT></P>
C
CMHDave
Guest
Re: offtopic HAAT
tpt, if it's not too much trouble could you do this for WTDA too? I am curious. I can generally pick up 103.9 just east of Springfield as I am losing WTUE travelling towards Columbus on I-70. For all the talk about most car radios passing them right up on a scan in the Columbus metro area, I get them fairly crystal clear far out of that range. This is not to say I don't lose them all over the city in various pockets.
tpt, if it's not too much trouble could you do this for WTDA too? I am curious. I can generally pick up 103.9 just east of Springfield as I am losing WTUE travelling towards Columbus on I-70. For all the talk about most car radios passing them right up on a scan in the Columbus metro area, I get them fairly crystal clear far out of that range. This is not to say I don't lose them all over the city in various pockets.
Re: Maybe it is their HAAT
> OK, just ran the contours on both WRPO and WINF.
>
> Looked for the 34 dbu signal, based on the 50/50 curves
> (which is 50 microvolts--a good car radio can pull this up
> in the absense of interference).
>
> WRPO, for 36 points, has almost circular coverage, with the
> contour out at 25.2 kilometers in every direction. However,
> this is because they are below 100 feet above average.
> Raise their HAAT to 129 feet, and the coverage shows a
> "notch" towards the east, dropping to 22 km, while in other
> directions it is at 27 km on average.
>
> WINF, for 36 points, has better coverage to the south,
> almost 28 km. To the west it is 25 km., to the east and
> north, 22 KM. For reference, 24 km is 15 miles.
>
> So, operating with their licensed powers, WRPO has, on
> paper, the better overall coverage.
>
> The other variation which is not clearly listed in the FCC
> data base is the transmitting antenna. The low power FM
> c.p.'s specify a horizontal antenna. However, the rules
> allow LPFM's to use a horizontal, vertical or circular
> antenna. All things being equal, a vertical or c.p. antenna
> will obviously work better on a car radio than a horizontal
> antenna.
>
> WINF, according to the FCC database, is on the old 107.9
> tower (at the 1550 site) just east of downtown Delaware.
> WINF lists an "FM4"?--the old 107.9 antenna? Don't know what
> RPO uses, but our orignal poster can enlighten us.
>
We are useing a two bay cir antenna.
> OK, just ran the contours on both WRPO and WINF.
>
> Looked for the 34 dbu signal, based on the 50/50 curves
> (which is 50 microvolts--a good car radio can pull this up
> in the absense of interference).
>
> WRPO, for 36 points, has almost circular coverage, with the
> contour out at 25.2 kilometers in every direction. However,
> this is because they are below 100 feet above average.
> Raise their HAAT to 129 feet, and the coverage shows a
> "notch" towards the east, dropping to 22 km, while in other
> directions it is at 27 km on average.
>
> WINF, for 36 points, has better coverage to the south,
> almost 28 km. To the west it is 25 km., to the east and
> north, 22 KM. For reference, 24 km is 15 miles.
>
> So, operating with their licensed powers, WRPO has, on
> paper, the better overall coverage.
>
> The other variation which is not clearly listed in the FCC
> data base is the transmitting antenna. The low power FM
> c.p.'s specify a horizontal antenna. However, the rules
> allow LPFM's to use a horizontal, vertical or circular
> antenna. All things being equal, a vertical or c.p. antenna
> will obviously work better on a car radio than a horizontal
> antenna.
>
> WINF, according to the FCC database, is on the old 107.9
> tower (at the 1550 site) just east of downtown Delaware.
> WINF lists an "FM4"?--the old 107.9 antenna? Don't know what
> RPO uses, but our orignal poster can enlighten us.
>
We are useing a two bay cir antenna.
Re: offtopic HAAT
> tpt, if it's not too much trouble could you do this for WTDA
> too? I am curious. I can generally pick up 103.9 just east
> of Springfield as I am losing WTUE travelling towards
> Columbus on I-70. For all the talk about most car radios
> passing them right up on a scan in the Columbus metro area,
> I get them fairly crystal clear far out of that range. This
> is not to say I don't lose them all over the city in various
> pockets.
>
Using the same parameters (60 dbu and 34 dbu at 50/50 curves) TDA towards the west goes out 29 km or 18 miles to the 60 dbu, and 84 KM or 52 miles for the 50 microvolt. The 50 microvolt coverage that far out will be much more subject to changing propogation conditons (that is, co-channel or adjacent channel interference). Remember, though, that TDA's tower is out in Delaware County north of Westerville. Hence the problem in various parts of Franklin County.
The problems in town for a Class A can often be traced to receiver problems. My Ford car radio is fairly sensitive, but near to an FM tower anything 2 mhz on either side of that station gets wiped out. Also there is some intermod that has always plagued 103.9 right downtown. Remember there are several stations on the WBNS tower, plus 97.9 and two class A's downtown. RF soup.
> tpt, if it's not too much trouble could you do this for WTDA
> too? I am curious. I can generally pick up 103.9 just east
> of Springfield as I am losing WTUE travelling towards
> Columbus on I-70. For all the talk about most car radios
> passing them right up on a scan in the Columbus metro area,
> I get them fairly crystal clear far out of that range. This
> is not to say I don't lose them all over the city in various
> pockets.
>
Using the same parameters (60 dbu and 34 dbu at 50/50 curves) TDA towards the west goes out 29 km or 18 miles to the 60 dbu, and 84 KM or 52 miles for the 50 microvolt. The 50 microvolt coverage that far out will be much more subject to changing propogation conditons (that is, co-channel or adjacent channel interference). Remember, though, that TDA's tower is out in Delaware County north of Westerville. Hence the problem in various parts of Franklin County.
The problems in town for a Class A can often be traced to receiver problems. My Ford car radio is fairly sensitive, but near to an FM tower anything 2 mhz on either side of that station gets wiped out. Also there is some intermod that has always plagued 103.9 right downtown. Remember there are several stations on the WBNS tower, plus 97.9 and two class A's downtown. RF soup.
C
CMHDave
Guest
Re: offtopic HAAT
> Using the same parameters (60 dbu and 34 dbu at 50/50
> curves) TDA towards the west goes out 29 km or 18 miles to
> the 60 dbu, and 84 KM or 52 miles for the 50 microvolt. The
> 50 microvolt coverage that far out will be much more subject
> to changing propogation conditons (that is, co-channel or
> adjacent channel interference). Remember, though, that
> TDA's tower is out in Delaware County north of Westerville.
> Hence the problem in various parts of Franklin County.
>
> The problems in town for a Class A can often be traced to
> receiver problems. My Ford car radio is fairly sensitive,
> but near to an FM tower anything 2 mhz on either side of
> that station gets wiped out. Also there is some intermod
> that has always plagued 103.9 right downtown. Remember
> there are several stations on the WBNS tower, plus 97.9 and
> two class A's downtown. RF soup.
>
Very interesting (to me at least). I also lose TDA totally heading east on 670 on the west side from about Grandview Ave (maybe even Hague on 70 further west) all the way to Neil Ave because of the BNS towers.
> Using the same parameters (60 dbu and 34 dbu at 50/50
> curves) TDA towards the west goes out 29 km or 18 miles to
> the 60 dbu, and 84 KM or 52 miles for the 50 microvolt. The
> 50 microvolt coverage that far out will be much more subject
> to changing propogation conditons (that is, co-channel or
> adjacent channel interference). Remember, though, that
> TDA's tower is out in Delaware County north of Westerville.
> Hence the problem in various parts of Franklin County.
>
> The problems in town for a Class A can often be traced to
> receiver problems. My Ford car radio is fairly sensitive,
> but near to an FM tower anything 2 mhz on either side of
> that station gets wiped out. Also there is some intermod
> that has always plagued 103.9 right downtown. Remember
> there are several stations on the WBNS tower, plus 97.9 and
> two class A's downtown. RF soup.
>
Very interesting (to me at least). I also lose TDA totally heading east on 670 on the west side from about Grandview Ave (maybe even Hague on 70 further west) all the way to Neil Ave because of the BNS towers.
Re: Coverage
> > > We are useing a two bay cir antenna system, with zero
> > gain.
> >
>
> Well that's why your coverage isn't like WINF, you have no
> gain on your antenna, and I bet their antenna does. If you
> have some gain on it you can get more out of the signal.
>
You are kidding, right? He means unity gain (what goes in is what comes out...)
Nonsense!
His ERP is limited to 100 watts, as WINF's ERP is limited to 59 watts.
Doesn't matter whether he uses two bays or four bays, or one bay, to get this ERP. However, the more gain in the antenna, the less transmitter power he can use to remain legal.
Let's do a sample calculation: Assume 100 feet of 1/2 inch foam coaxial cable feeds this antenna, and the gain in 1.0 (unity or no gain). His transmitter must supply about 116 watts to get 100 watts ERP. Assume now that he replaces the antenna with a four bay antenna with gain of 2.1. To remain legal, he must then reduce his transmitter power to 55 watts.
For a given installation, there is a balance between the transmitter power needed (and the cost of the transmitter) vs. the antenna gain used (and the cost of a larger antenna, as well as the tower real estate available). The ERP (effective radiated power) is assigned by the FCC, so that becomes the fixed number that must be met. In terms of coverage, the difference between a single bay c.p. antenna and a multi-bay c.p. antenna (at the powers used by LPFM's) is minimal.
The brand and construction of the antenna will have more effect on actual coverage, as some of the cheaper LPFM antennas are not very well made, and may not deliver the gain figures they claim in their literature. Or they will deteriorate rapidly when exposed to wind and weather.
I've had good luck with the SWR and ERI low power antennas.
> > > We are useing a two bay cir antenna system, with zero
> > gain.
> >
>
> Well that's why your coverage isn't like WINF, you have no
> gain on your antenna, and I bet their antenna does. If you
> have some gain on it you can get more out of the signal.
>
You are kidding, right? He means unity gain (what goes in is what comes out...)
Nonsense!
His ERP is limited to 100 watts, as WINF's ERP is limited to 59 watts.
Doesn't matter whether he uses two bays or four bays, or one bay, to get this ERP. However, the more gain in the antenna, the less transmitter power he can use to remain legal.
Let's do a sample calculation: Assume 100 feet of 1/2 inch foam coaxial cable feeds this antenna, and the gain in 1.0 (unity or no gain). His transmitter must supply about 116 watts to get 100 watts ERP. Assume now that he replaces the antenna with a four bay antenna with gain of 2.1. To remain legal, he must then reduce his transmitter power to 55 watts.
For a given installation, there is a balance between the transmitter power needed (and the cost of the transmitter) vs. the antenna gain used (and the cost of a larger antenna, as well as the tower real estate available). The ERP (effective radiated power) is assigned by the FCC, so that becomes the fixed number that must be met. In terms of coverage, the difference between a single bay c.p. antenna and a multi-bay c.p. antenna (at the powers used by LPFM's) is minimal.
The brand and construction of the antenna will have more effect on actual coverage, as some of the cheaper LPFM antennas are not very well made, and may not deliver the gain figures they claim in their literature. Or they will deteriorate rapidly when exposed to wind and weather.
I've had good luck with the SWR and ERI low power antennas.
Re: offtopic HAAT
> tpt, if it's not too much trouble could you do this for WTDA
> too? I am curious. I can generally pick up 103.9 just east
> of Springfield as I am losing WTUE travelling towards
> Columbus on I-70. For all the talk about most car radios
> passing them right up on a scan in the Columbus metro area,
> I get them fairly crystal clear far out of that range. This
> is not to say I don't lose them all over the city in various
> pockets.
>
Picky point, but the Dayton station on 103.9 is CC'a alternative WXEG. All I know about them is that they are a Class A CC alternative licensed to Beavercreek, and they seem to have much better coverage than Ted. (Or were you just saying that you switch over from 104.3 TUE to 103.9 after TUE starts to fade?)
Coming in from the west on 70 I usually pick up Ted at about the same point as you, but the signal isn't at the strength today's car radios insist upon for decent stereo separation until perhaps 10 miles west of 270. ID="signature">______________
Nu_Roo_2 formerly Nu__Roo formerly Nu_Roo</P>
> tpt, if it's not too much trouble could you do this for WTDA
> too? I am curious. I can generally pick up 103.9 just east
> of Springfield as I am losing WTUE travelling towards
> Columbus on I-70. For all the talk about most car radios
> passing them right up on a scan in the Columbus metro area,
> I get them fairly crystal clear far out of that range. This
> is not to say I don't lose them all over the city in various
> pockets.
>
Picky point, but the Dayton station on 103.9 is CC'a alternative WXEG. All I know about them is that they are a Class A CC alternative licensed to Beavercreek, and they seem to have much better coverage than Ted. (Or were you just saying that you switch over from 104.3 TUE to 103.9 after TUE starts to fade?)
Coming in from the west on 70 I usually pick up Ted at about the same point as you, but the signal isn't at the strength today's car radios insist upon for decent stereo separation until perhaps 10 miles west of 270. ID="signature">______________
Nu_Roo_2 formerly Nu__Roo formerly Nu_Roo</P>
Re: Coverage
> > We would still be limited to 100 watts ERP no matter how
> > much gain the antenna has.. right?
> >
> That's right. Look at my new post a few lines up.
>
> Of course, some folks don't understand this ;-)!.
>
Could there be some problem with the vertical pattern? Maybe some down tilt would get the ERP down where the receivers are.
Neil
> > We would still be limited to 100 watts ERP no matter how
> > much gain the antenna has.. right?
> >
> That's right. Look at my new post a few lines up.
>
> Of course, some folks don't understand this ;-)!.
>
Could there be some problem with the vertical pattern? Maybe some down tilt would get the ERP down where the receivers are.
Neil
- Status
- This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.